A Fan's Cry Out to Bill Musgrave
by nmatt71 on Jan 15, 2012 7:25 PM CST
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PrintLately around DN there have been many different opinions on how we should go forward as an offense, such as:
AP has lost a step, Gerhart is a better back.
AP will be just as good as before, Gerhart is a bust.
We should trade AP.
We should trade Toby.
Any touch that Gerhart has is a touch that AP doesn't, and any time AP touches the ball he can house it.
All opinions are debatable and all, I'm sure, are factually based in some way. I used to have one of one of the above opinions, but after much thought about our team I asked myself a question: Why can't the Vikings have an offense that both backs can seemingly be the #1 back, at the same time? I wondered how the Vikings could do this, and remembered my old favorite formation to run when I played Madden 98 as a child. The Pro Formation. Below are different variations that I put together (in paint, sorry for the basic and rudimentry design), because I couldn't find any good pictures to illustrate my points effectively
The more I thought of this old formation, the more I liked it.The Vikings could just swap out the FB position to Toby and have a 2 RB set. When you read up on the Pro Formation, the first thing it says is that it can be highly successful because defenses cannot key on the Full Back as a lead blocker, like they can in the I Formation. That being said I hated earlier in the season when we put Toby in as a FB in the I Formation. When we drafted him we said we would not try to make him a FB, and when he was interviewed pre draft he said he did not want to be a FB. I am suggesting this offensive formation to all the DN faithful as an alternative way to relieve pressure off of AP, and get Toby on the field at the same time so he can get more touches and a bigger part of our offense. Also the Pro Formation can used very effectively to have a very balanced offensive attack. It can be used very effectively for max protection, or can unleash almighty terror on almost every possible position on the field, seemingly at once. The more I mulled about it the more I believed the Vikings should adopt this formation, and make it our base offensive formation.
This formation would open up better running lanes for both backs, because it spreads defenses out to cover all possible running lanes as you can see in this basic dive (no lead blocker) play diagram, while effectively using the other RB as a decoy. This basic diagram is only drawn up with 8 players, which means any of these run plays could be called with the many variations that can be drawn up with this formation (see below).
I realize this is asking a lot of both backs, but we could even call power runs and have them block for one
another, and have power runs with a lead blocker (obviously all runs could be mirrored to the other side as well). The reason I would ask both AP and Toby to do this is because it would make this style offense more productive because it would be even harder to stop the run if we could have both backs be lead blocker or ball carrier, and field more power runs. It would also be harder for defenses to key off of one of the backs if we had a solid way to throw off the defense. Also, with these style runs it would be harder for defenses to drop a safety into the box without fear of being burnt on a run to their weak side.
The other reason I suggest this offense is because it would mainly rely heavily on our running backs and tight ends. With a quick look at our roster we currently have Adrian Peterson, Toby Gerhart, Jordan Todman and Caleb King as running backs. We could run 2 RB sets all day and always have a fresh running back in at all times. We currently have Kyle Rudolph, Mickey Shuler and Allen Reisner as tight ends, with the possibility of Visanthe Shiancoe back next year(which imo is doubtful, but I wish him all the best because he has been great to our team). Also keep in mind D'Imperio could go fill in as TE or RB on any given play and Percy could fill in as WR or RB. Whereas our WR position the only guaranteed personnel back are Percy Harvin, Stephen Burton, Emmanuel Arceneaux and Michael Jenkins, who looked good for us up until going on the IR.
It's an incredibly versatile formation, allowing 3 WR sets for deep shots down the field;
2 TE sets for short to mid ranges;
Twin TE sets also short to mid ranges;
3 TE sets a possible Goal Line configuration(a place where we have really struggled to punch the ball in with almost all 11 defensive personnel in the box to stop AP);
Twin WR sets for short to long ranges;
and can spread the whole length of the field with 2 WR Sets again for short to long ranges;
I say make it our base offensive formation because essentially it will simplify our offensive philosophy for Ponder, or Webb. It could give them a simpler look at the defense, and would make audibles easier. Imo, we could run the same slow no huddle style playcalling as the Falcons, giving Ponder or Webb more freedom in playcalling and the ability to take advantage with what they see on the field, all the while maximizing both Gerhart and Peterson's abilities as Running backs.
Then to add other wrinkles we have Percy line up as a RB occasionally, as opposed to WR. Percy ran the ball quite effectively all throughout the year, and I would like to see that continue. In early 2010 the Vikings staff was working with AP to get him the ball in more ways and were trying him out as a split out. Either him and Percy could line up in the back field and motion out wide to create bunch WR sets, or just to spread out the D and create mismatches for the run or pass.
Remember the delay reverse that worked so well for Percy early in the year? The same play could be designed to have him running across the D again. Have a fake handoff to AP with Toby leading the way only to have Percy gaining speed going the opposite direction of the whole defense. Take the Twin TE Set listed before and swap Percy in as a slot WR, for the second TE and we have the same magic going again.
There have been times that Bill Musgrave has been downright brilliant as a play caller and in designing plays( we won't talk about the other times though...) and this is what I feel is what could help our offense, and running backs immensely. When he and Leslie Frasier said they would tailor an offense to the strengths of our roster, this is what I had envisioned personally. Assuming we draft a premier LT, invest in our OL heavily in FA and pick up a solid WR in FA our offensive woes and stutters could be solved. Then, you know, we would just have to fix our whole secondary issues and we could be back on top!
This FanPost was created by a registered user of The Daily Norseman, and does not necessarily reflect the views of the staff of the site. However, since this is a community, that view is no less important.
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The Obvious Solution gets in the way of my Genius
Nice story.. BTW… Packers are the first 15-1 team to never win a Playoff Game :)
the #3 WR in your trips formation is an ineligable receiver
It’s obvious you put a lot of thought and effort into this, for that I commend you.
"At this point, what we got to lose, right? So we might as well throw caution to the wind and hit people in the face."
--Vikings DE Jared Allen
What did I miss?
All I was really focusing on was having 7 men on the LOS, and I am unfamiliar with what could make the third receiver ineligible. I am sincerely interested because I consider myself a student of the game, no matter how trite that sounds, lol.
only the end man on the LOS is eligible in any formation
You have 2 receivers on the LOS on the same side of the formation. So only the #1 receiver or end man on the LOS is eligible.
"At this point, what we got to lose, right? So we might as well throw caution to the wind and hit people in the face."
--Vikings DE Jared Allen
you cant run trips with 2 backs in the backfield
that’s the limitation for a 2 back set. The offensive formation always has to be unbalanced. and you can never run doubles (2 receivers on each side of the formation) or trips (3 × 1). It will always be twins on one side and a single receiver on the other. It’s really only 3 looks: 20 personnel, 21 personnel or 22 personnel. That will make it very easy and simple for the defense to adjust.
"At this point, what we got to lose, right? So we might as well throw caution to the wind and hit people in the face."
--Vikings DE Jared Allen
It looks to me like his trips receiver formation only has 1 back in the backfield at the time of the snap. Harvin would line up at RB, then motion out to a WR slot in a 3×1 trips formation. Pretty sure that’s legal.
He was talking about a different formation
I deleted the formation out after a couple ppl pointed out my mistake.
The number one takeaway from this year
Is that a kindergartner defense can read our offensive sets.
AD goes in, Gerhardt goes out, Shiancoe in, Kleinsasser out, Booker in, Harvin out, Rudolph in, Aro out, Webb in, someone out… as a defense it doesn’t take an Einstein to read what is going to happen when key people go in and out.
Better to have your way, which is the the way most good coaches run things, which is most of the time, but not all the time, have the same people in but mix up things so badly no one can read them. In your example, a two-back set.
by liveforadrenaline on Jan 15, 2012 9:45 PM CST reply actions
I Am Actually Not Sure What Type of "Offense" The Vikings Ran This Year
There seemed to be no real pattern. Early in the year it was run first, second, then pass. Then it was pass first, run second and then who knows. But it was mostly geared at arriving at 3rd and long which is not terribly productive. And very obvious. The Wildcat plays were highly disruptive when inserted. And when we fell behind early, there was no sticking to the plan. There was lots of talk about utilizing Gerhart but absolutely no steps in that direction. And Kyle Rudolph and Percy Harvin were often ignored when they were needed most. Given the limited number of talented players on the Vikings offense, it should not be that difficult to get them involved.
Bottom line, the Vikings need to play to their strengths (until they have new and different strengths). Which to me means fully utilizing their running backs, tight ends and Percy Harvin. The Pro Set discussion is technically beyond me but is philosophically consistent with what they Vikings should be trying.
Let’s draft some offensive linemen to protect the QB and open up some holes so that we can move the chains consistently next year.
I like this
We definitely need something to counter the almost always present 8th man in the box, I would love to see the Vikings focused on running the ball. Several teams proved that you don’t need star play from the QB to win at a high level. There are a few strengths to this plan
A. It will take less to move into this type of offense. To upgrade the passing offense to the levels of Saints, Packers, etc. would require a lot more of an investment. I personally feel like the defense needs to be the priority. A lot of those games are offense was scoring plenty of points, when you put up 27+ that should be a win with our defense – as said by Jared Allen
B. Will be a new look. Teams have a lot of film on Adrian Peterson, and in general our whole offensive philosophy making it easy to game plan of defense. Putting him in this type of formation might help him regain some edge. Also the addition of Gerhart, who can get just as many yards will also need to be contained. Running backs are a strength, this would be forming the offense better to it. Although the offensive line will need to greatly improve.
"You can write articles and do whatever you want, you can break down every player. Good, bad or ugly. But we just aren't good enough as a team, as a group. Offensively, defensively and special teams, from the No. 1 on the roster to the last man on the roster. We just aren't good enough. It's as simple as that." - Chad Greenway
Not bad, but
You can add shotgun to that formation without changing much pretty easily. You’d have to leave the base formation though if you want to run 4 or 5 receiver sets (wait, do we even have that many WR on the team?). Then you’d have to go to either a single RB in the backfield, or clear it out completely.
I remember when we had AP and Chester Taylor, we fans were calling for this formation more, and never got it. Now we have AP and Toby, and we’re back at it. I doubt we’ll get it. Because there are some very real drawbacks. First, if you want to use one of them as a lead blocker, it takes extra time to set them up as they have to run diagonal first to get in front of the other RB. With the speed of the NFL, the holes that the O-Line opens up may not stay open long enough to get a lead blocker through them first in this formation. Second, this setup essentially makes one of the RB a decoy on most running plays, meaning they have very little usefulness on running plays. Seeing as how the QB doesn’t block, and now a RB doesn’t get used, you’re essentially playing 9 against 11 in the run game, which is a losing battle every time. Lastly, you would need both backs to be very adept at blitz pickups, because in passing situations, they’d be either blocking or running out of the backfield into the flat. Either way, one of them will almost always stay home to block, as there would only be the base OL to pass protect. I think this base package limits the type of pass plays you can run, as they can lineup man-to-man against our 1-3 WR, and still have 8 for the box easily in case of a audible to a run.
This setup looks great on paper, but in today’s NFL, you don’t see it much for good reason.
Ponder. Peterson. Percy. Purple Perfection.
You have valid concerns, let me try to persuade you
You have doubts about the extra time it will take for them to lead block. With the way our offensive line blocks this could very well be true, but there are times that you could fit a pickup truck through to hole(although I haven’t seen this recently for the Vikes) so it’s possible that it could work.
You are correct that we would be overmatched on the run, but we can not change the situation with the QB, on every play we will be at least 10 against 11. And you’re correct that the other running back may not be blocking on all plays, but they are serving the purpose of being a decoy and with the decoy all I’m looking for the opposing defense’s linebackers and safeties to hesitate for just a half second, because they’re unsure on who’s going to get the ball. This premise is like what happened when Randy Moss came back for the 3 or 4 games, he didn’t catch many balls, but Percy had a helluva time while he was here. I’m not looking for a home run every time we run the ball, I’m just trying to find a way to get a possible extra yard to three yards every time we run the ball and if the defense were to hesitate and play reactionary defense for fear of who’s getting the ball instead of attacking the run like normal then an extra yard or up to three is achievable. To try to get to us easier they could bring their linebackers up, which means it would be easier for Rudolph to get behind them and get more yards. When we established the run in a game the play action pass would be downright nasty.
You are worried that opposing defenses will just sit 8 in the box and play man on our TE’s or WRs. I would be ecstatic if defenses tried this, because Percy really started to come into his own in the second half of the year and was tearing up single and double coverage. Jenkins was doing pretty well with consistently beating his man in his routes (although they seemed to only have him run a comeback route for Donovan), and if they chose to bring back Aromashodu for another year or more, he seemed to consistently get separation and if he can shore up his hands he would be a true #1 WR, imo. Also if defenses continued to try this we could just run routes that are designed to beat man coverage, like slants and crossing patterns.
You mentioned something that I wanted to get into but forgot about, that the shotgun formations are very similar. I think this would be great because it could give Ponder or Webb the option to audible into shotgun if they read a quick blitz. They see the blitz, audible to a quick pass play, find the singled WR and get the ball out for some quick yards. It would again be simplifying the offense while giving Ponder or Webb more options and possibly more reign over play calling.
Ultimately, what’s going to fix our running game is for our backs to stop getting hit in the backfield, and that’s going to take a serious investment in our OL, which the Vikings are primed to do this offseason. We are in prime position to pick Kalil, Martin or Reiff and have more than enough cap space to sign a premier FA veteran guard to a healthy contract.
thinking..
the idea I think is the old Dolphins set with Mercury Morris and Larry Zonka tandem.
Morris was the speedster but with a crazy sick exsplosive off the ball O line prolly be fun to at least see, but there must be a reason its done any longer.
@}-----You've been Touched-----{@
Yeah, there is...
…teams can stack the box and still defend the pass due to limited recievers on the field. You would have to have an absolutely elite recieving corp(including TE) to run an offense like that in today’s game.
You've got
at least one illegal formation in there… No one covering the right tackle
by HammeroftheGods on Jan 17, 2012 12:44 PM CST reply actions
It's worked before
Obviously, you put alot of thought into this as proof positive with your diagrams. I suggested this even before TG played his first down as a rookie. I think those two in the backfield at the same time would cause fits for most defenses. But, in today’s NFL, we have pass happy coaches for the most part. I will tell you this however, IF AP comes back better than ever (I hope he does) and even if TG has a great start leading up to when AP re-enters the line-up. and then finds himself riding the sidelines once again for the most part……………….he’s gone after next year. He can start for most other NFL teams….and now he knows this because his confidence is back! Frankly, he may bolt to another team anyway because he is an EVERY DOWN feature back that gets stronger as the game progresses……….and in order for him to excel on the same team with AP…something’s gotta give and you don’t sit a 100 million dollar player like AP just to keep TG motoring. TG “MUST” have 15-20 touches per game to be effective. I just don’t see how these two great players can co-exist. Sadly, they really get along too and there is no ego conflict between them, but perhaps it’s time for TG to take his act somewhere else. I suspect he will do just that at the end of next season…..regardless of the kind of year he has. But, for the record…….. I would love to see them two in the backfield at the same time.
by jjlovesfootball on Jan 20, 2012 11:13 AM CST reply actions
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