The Peculiar Case of the Metrodome Site
With as many intriguing twists and head-scratching turns as the Minnesota Vikings' efforts to get a new stadium built in Minnesota have taken, the development that continually fascinates me is that the Metrodome site is likely the frontrunner in the stadium sweepstakes.
Dome sweet home, sort of
If there was ever a time when fans, teams, and players liked the Hubert H. Humphrey Metrodome, I don't remember it. I'm not saying that there haven't been people who thought the Metrodome was the bee's knees, just that I can't think of any.
At the time it was built the Dome was seen as a workable, if not thrilling, option for a year-round sports facility that would house the Minnesota Twins, the University of Minnesota Gophers football team, and the Minnesota Vikings. It would also provide a place for high school sports championships and a variety of events and activities for Minnesotans regardless of what our fickle weather was doing outside. People weren't thrilled about the slightly generic facility, but they were all in it together-both literally and metaphorically.
However, thirty years later the Twins are playing at Target Field, the Gophers are once again on the University of Minnesota campus, playing at TCF Bank Stadium, and the Vikings are the last of the Metrodome's original anchor tenants. And, for the last ten years, spanning three different team ownership groups, the Vikings have also been trying to get out of the Metrodome. So far, to no avail.
All of that could change with the team's current lease at the Metrodome being up next month. For the last couple years the Vikings have said that they have no interest in signing a new lease until a deal for a new stadium is reached. With the Minnesota Legislature not scheduled to convene until January 24, 2012 and no stadium bill in the "finishing touches" stage, the team looks like it's on track to be homeless come February.
Lots more stadium talk after the jump.
Stadium sites, fortunately all in Minnesota
It seems like every day there's a new report about which site currently has the edge in becoming the site that will eventually house a new Vikings stadium. Locally, the mood, whether rightly or wrongly, is that a stadium deal will eventually get done but that things aren't urgent yet.
Back in May 2011 Minneapolis unveiled a plan for a revamped Metrodome on its 20-acre current site that generated public buzz and the feeling that Minneapolis was proactively seeking a stadium solution for the Vikings ($895-907 million depending on the estimate). The Vikings, however, were politely noncommittal. Just a day later, the Vikings revealed that they had been working with Ramsey County officials for months on a plan to build a stadium on 260 acres in Arden Hills at the Twin Cities Army Ammunition Plant (TCAAP) for $1.1 billion. Two other Minneapolis sites, one near the Basilica of St. Mary's ($1.03 billion) and one in the area of the Minneapolis Farmers Market (34 acres, $1.04 billion) by Target Field, had also been suggested as possible sites. The most recent addition to the menu of possible sites came last week when Shakopee submitted a proposal to build a stadium on 130 acres not far from Valley Fair ($920 million).
It's not the size, it's how you use it?
Allegedly, size isn't everything, especially with real estate where "location, location, location" is the mantra. But, despite not being everything, size is definitely a thing. And it is a thing that the Vikings want in a potential stadium site, which is why they chose to partner Ramsey County. According to the proposal, the TCAAP property has room for 21,000 parking spaces, something that would enable more fans to enjoy the tailgating tradition they used to have at the old Metropolitan Stadium in Bloomington. But in the months since that announcement there has been a strong push by Minneapolis city leaders to keep the team not only in Minneapolis, but at the current Metrodome site.
There are financial reasons* why this doesn't appeal to the Vikings who would lose revenue during the construction process when they would have to play three seasons at TCF Bank Stadium, but it seems like it runs a bit deeper than the construction relocation hassles.
Perhaps the more challenging problem in getting the Vikings to go along with any proposed site in downtown Minneapolis is that it seems to run completely contrary to the fan experience the team wants to create on game days. A return to wide-spread tailgating outside the stadium before games would mark a significant change in the game-day Vikings football experience available in Minnesota. And, if it happened, it would provide Vikings fans with an experience more like the tailgating available to Kansas City Chiefs fans outside Arrowhead Stadium. From the Vikings' community marketing perspective, a renewed tradition of widespread tailgating could make Vikings games a day-long activity for fans instead of a 3-4 hour diversion. This, from what the team has said, is a big, hairy deal to the Vikings because it has to do with the kind of identity they want to create as a football destination.
That kind of a widespread tailgating tradition may be more difficult to create at an urban stadium. All of the Minneapolis stadium sites tout the benefits of the infrastructure that is already in place, particularly access to public transportation. However, arriving at games via public transportation presents some challenges to tailgating. Although it isn't impossible to do, carrying a grill and cooler on the bus or the train isn't nearly as easy as transporting them via a vehicle, even one as small as a 1986 Honda Civic hatchback. But, supposing that an intrepid bus or train commuter did wrangle tailgating equipment to the game, where would they set up? And, what would they do with their equipment during the game?
More likely than tailgating by bus or train, a fan with the urge to grill would suck it up and drive to the game, an option some fans already embrace. Currently, you can't tailgate very close to the Metrodome, but that might change if the stadium is rebuilt and the surrounding area given a facelift. The other concern is that, right now, there aren't many spots for tailgating, certainly not as many spots as would be available at suburban sites in Arden Hills or Shakopee. Even so, there are still hardcore fans who find a way to tailgate and there probably always will be.
Lots of suspicions, very few answers
So, an urban stadium at the Metrodome site doesn't seem like an ideal fit with the tailgating-focused game-day experience the team wants to create. But there are two other possible stadium sites in Minneapolis with larger footprints that might better accommodate tailgating and achieve a compromise that would be more acceptable to the Vikings. And, if the goal of Mayor R.T. Rybak and Minneapolis City Council President Barbara Johnson is to show the Vikings that they can create a similar game-day tailgating experience in an urban setting, then why not pitch one of those sites? Either of those sites would keep the team, and the revenue their games generate, in downtown Minneapolis and could take advantage of existing transportation infrastructure. So why focus support so on a site that the Vikings have repeatedly said is a "non-starter"?
I really wish I knew. All I'm left with is a whole lot of suspicions, possibly baseless. Here are my suspicions about why Mayor Rybak and the Minneapolis City Council continue to promote the Metrodome site so staunchly despite the Vikings concerns about the site.
- I suspect that the Minneapolis city leaders didn't proactively work with the Vikings to find a stadium solution because they didn't expect the team would get a better offer. Waiting so long to address the issue with the Vikings doesn't look like leadership, it looks more like brinksmanship.
- I suspect that city leaders' interest in the urban, public transportation lifestyle meant that the Vikings' interest in renewing the tailgating tradition took city leaders by surprise. They didn't have an answer to the challenge of the Vikings wanting to change the fans' game-day experience, so they ignored it.
- I suspect those advocating the Metrodome site thought they could regain ground from Arden Hills by going with a site that wouldn't require them to negotiate with multiple property owners (like the Farmers Market site that the Twins favor for the Vikings) or require a site feasibility study** (like the Arden Hills site was subject to). But, shouldn't any project involving millions in taxpayer money be subject to a feasibility study so potential hidden costs and problems can be accounted for?
- I suspect that the Minneapolis mayor and city council are expecting, and will likely get, the governor's support for their preferred site, regardless of how late or half-assed their leadership has been on this issue (only a four-page proposal for a multi-million dollar project?), because Minneapolis is the seat of DFL power in Minnesota and Governor Mark Dayton needs all the political support he can get in the face of a Republic majority in the Legislature.
- I suspect that the Metropolitan Sports Facilities Commission (owner and operator of the Metrodome) is incredibly uncomfortable with possibility of running the Metrodome without an anchor tenant to generate a large portion of the building's $10-11 million in annual operating costs. Right now the Vikings are responsible for $6 million in operating costs at the Metrodome.
The Vikings' bid for a new stadium is plagued by poor timing because of the economic downturn, but it is also affected by the fact that the team is the last remaining anchor tenant. I can't help wondering if it was the Twins or the Gophers leaving the Metrodome last, whether they would have faced the requirement that their new facilities be roofed "people's stadiums" that could house year-round activities. We'll never know.
But, what we may find out is whether or not the Vikings can reconcile themselves to a new stadium built on the Metrodome site, if that is the only way to build a new stadium in Minnesota.
*In addition to losing revenue playing three seasons at TCF Stadium while a revamped Metrodome was under construction, the Vikings have said that costly upgrades would have to be made to the stadium and to parking in the area. They estimate the total additional cost to be $67 million, which would make the cost of building at the Metrodome site closer to $962 million instead of the $895 million original estimate. If those numbers are accurate, then the $920 million Shakopee stadium proposal would supplant the Metrodome proposal as the cheapest stadium plan.
**The proposed Ramsey County stadium site in Arden Hills was subject to a site feasibility study at the recommendation of Governor Dayton, conducted by the Metropolitan Council (members appointed by the governor) and the Metropolitan Sports Facilities Commission (head appointed by the governor, other members appointed by the Minneapolis City Council). The study suggested that the construction could not be completed within the proposed timeframe, and that the costs of procuring the property from the federal government (who owns it) and cleaning up the pollution on the site would cost too much. Since those findings were made public, Ramsey County reached a formal Offer to Purchase agreement with the federal government, including pollution clean-up costs, that falls within their original $30 million estimate. Also, Mortenson Construction, the company that built the last three major stadiums in Minnesota, has said that while the construction timeframe Ramsey County put forth is aggressive, it is still feasible. So far, the proposed Ramsey County stadium site in Arden Hills is the only site that has been subject to a site feasibility study.
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excellent read!
I wish wilf would be able to front all the money for AH just to thumb his nose at the state and Minneapolis
by Lunchpail on Jan 17, 2012 5:08 AM CST via mobile reply actions
That would be nice.
At least we’d know that the team would be staying in Minnesota. I have this daydream that the Wilfs bypass the state government and all the current stadium sites and negotiate with Minnesota tribal leaders to build a stadium on tribal grounds. The they could use gambling revenue to help fund stadium construction without expanding non-Indian gaming in Minnesota. That isn’t going to happen, but I like the idea of it.
Life being what it is, one dreams of revenge.
- Paul Gauguin
http://www.dailynorseman.com/
I don't think
The NFL would approve of this method. Plus wouldn’t that put the stadium way out in the boonies?
Will the Real Thor Please Stand Up ... ?
by the Real Thor on Jan 17, 2012 1:49 PM CST via Android app up reply actions
I imagine you're right and that the NFL wouldn't approve of this idea.
But the idea of the Vikings no longer having to negotiate with state and local government makes me smile. Like I said, it’s just a daydream.
Life being what it is, one dreams of revenge.
- Paul Gauguin
http://www.dailynorseman.com/
The Krafts gave up in New England
After 15 years of negotiating and apparently signing dozens of agreements with multiple states, counties, and cities…
by liveforadrenaline on Jan 17, 2012 5:32 PM CST up reply actions
They never had to
But the subsidy and avoiding the risks of ownership and tying up capital are very appealing.
Great recap.
I love this site. It’s always my first stop for all things Vikings. /shamelessplug
What worries me about all this is that, no matter which site we look at, somebody is going to be unhappy about it for one reason or another. It’s not going to be possible to have a plan that pleases everybody, and as Minnesotans isn’t that contrary to our nature?
I still prefer the Arden Hills location to the others. Forcing the Vikings to play at TCF for three seasons is my least favorite. But mostly I just want the Vikings to stay in Minnesota, so I’ll be interested to hear how this all shakes out. The sooner, the better.
I think that pretty much reflects the attitude of a lot of Vikings fans...
Everyone seems to have a site they like better than others, but in the end we just want the Vikings to stay in Minnesota. Where the Vikings are in Minnesota is less important than making sure they play the next 50 seasons here. That’s why I think it is a disservice to the people of Minnesota and Vikings fans anywhere when plans are proposed that are so sketchy on details. It doesn’t give the impression that people are serious about finding a stadium solution.
Life being what it is, one dreams of revenge.
- Paul Gauguin
http://www.dailynorseman.com/
Some people over the age of sixty-five like(d) the Dome.
“It’s warm—you don’t have to bundle up to go to a game in December there!”
But, that’s pretty much the only demographic I ever met that cared for the place. I hate the Dome.
by Midnight Rambler on Jan 17, 2012 8:56 AM CST reply actions
As a person who starts shivering when it gets down to 72 degrees...
I can appreciate a roofed facility. That said, the Dome looks kind of depressing.
Life being what it is, one dreams of revenge.
- Paul Gauguin
http://www.dailynorseman.com/
Appears as though
Arden Hills is the only plan that has received a comprehensive evaluation AND has a specific commitment from the team, $425 million.
Every other “plan”, I use the term loosely, will NOT get as much money from the Wilfs, and are therefore more expensive than Arden Hills as far as the cost to the local partner and the state. From what I’ve read, this is not speculative. Zygi has made clear they will not contribute as much money for the other sites.
So the Arden Hills site, I surmise, offers far more benefit to both the fans and ‘the people of Minnesota’, as the governor has stated he wants. And it does so at a lower cost to the public-finance partners.
by Lars in SLP on Jan 17, 2012 8:57 AM CST via mobile reply actions
"But, the Strib says the Arden Hills site is infested by man-eating rabid bears! We can't build there!"
Seriously, the Strib has REALLY pushed the idea that a new stadium can only be built in Mpls. Objective journalism, my ass.
by Midnight Rambler on Jan 17, 2012 8:59 AM CST up reply actions
The Minneapolis Media Machine
Will also send reporters out who will discover smallpox, nuclear waste, acid rain, a fault line, a giant sinkhole which goes all the way to China, 8 million unsolved murders, a potential transit strike, and no contractors who will work in Arden Hills at the Arden Hills site…
by liveforadrenaline on Jan 17, 2012 9:04 AM CST up reply actions
Rats, lots of rats, too
Oh wait… those are just Green Bay Packers fans…
by liveforadrenaline on Jan 17, 2012 10:13 AM CST up reply actions
From the information we have available, it certainly looks like AH could yield the most benefit.
But some of the other stadium ideas could offer interesting opportunities too. While I think building a football stadium just 300 feet from the Basilica of St. Mary’s seems like a poor idea, the Farmers Market site not far from Target Field seemed like an interesting prospect. However, a project that involves negotiating with as many as 19 (I think that was the number, not absolutely sure) different property owners takes time, time that advocates of the site don’t have because the idea was proposed so late in the process. That’s too bad because creating a Minneapolis sports entertainment corridor has some great cross-promotional marketing potential.
Life being what it is, one dreams of revenge.
- Paul Gauguin
http://www.dailynorseman.com/
If something has to happen this session...
…then I think the FM is a no go. But if nothing happens this session and the Vikings don’t move away (this is my personal guess as to what happens) then perhaps the FM site becomes more feasible. Of course, that assumes that the folks running the show in Minneapolis can get on the same page and work from the same playbook.
I just worry that if nothing happens this legislative session...
The exploration of stadium sites will become moot because the Vikings will be in LA. However, if the Vikings do want to go to LA, they may have competition from the Oakland Raiders.
Life being what it is, one dreams of revenge.
- Paul Gauguin
http://www.dailynorseman.com/
Well the courts have already said that imminent domain
Can be used to take private property from one individual to transfer it to an other so that would take care of that.
Will the Real Thor Please Stand Up ... ?
by the Real Thor on Jan 17, 2012 1:53 PM CST via Android app up reply actions
As much as I want a new stadium...
…I also think that is a BS legal provision and I hope that it doesn’t get exercised. Keep in mind too that the FM site includes Sharing & Caring Hands which is non-profit serving homeless people. Something tells me politicians aren’t going line up to support using eminent domain to shut down a non-profit serving the homeless.
Does the Farmers Market site still include the Sharing and Caring Hands location?
I know that the original plans included the charity, but because Mary Jo Copeland was adamantly opposed to moving, later plans for the site didn’t include the charity’s property. Is Sharing and Caring Hands included in the plans for this proposed site again?
Life being what it is, one dreams of revenge.
- Paul Gauguin
http://www.dailynorseman.com/
I do think it depends on the proposal.
But I believe S&C Hands has to be included for the FM site to have any noticeable increase in acreage over the other 2 downtown sites.
Mary Jo’s needs end up having to be addressed either way because the Vikings, City, and State won’t want her to be operating S&C Hands right next to the new stadium.
If S&C Hands is included in the site proposal...
It will be a public relations nightmare. Watching the Senate Budget Committee hearings on the stadium, there were lots of folks who were adamant that the Vikings’ desire to build a stadium was not only a bad use of public funds, but hurtful to the poor in Minnesota. If the site for a new Vikings stadium actually displaced a charity serving Minnesota’s poor, the public relations fall-out could be very bad for the team.
Life being what it is, one dreams of revenge.
- Paul Gauguin
http://www.dailynorseman.com/
It's only a problem if they try to muscle Mary Jo.
If she is offered a proposal she supports then it’s a non-issue. Basically this means that for FM to be viable S&C Hands has to be relocated in a way that she supports. Done right, it can be a positive to the whole project.
Couple of reasons...
…I’m guessing she won’t be happy which means bad PR. Second, I’m also guessing the movers and shakers want the plight of the homeless to draw that much attention. Kind of hard to avoid addressing it when it’s in everyone’s face.
I've been over there plenty of afternoons
Its not all that in your face. The “wet house” on glenwood on the other side is more of a noticeable presence.
But you are right it’s bad if she makes a stink. I guess I don’t get why she would, but I’m not her.
Well, she already did.
I’m assuming she’s doing so to establish a strong negotiating position. This is an opportunity to improve her organization.
Oh
I absolutely the use of eminent domain for private enterprise. That is an abomination, but the precedence is set by the courts. Personally i would be all for amending the constitution to abolish this practice.
Will the Real Thor Please Stand Up ... ?
by the Real Thor on Jan 17, 2012 2:32 PM CST via Android app up reply actions 1 recs
There is plenty of space
TO leave sharing and caring hands where it is, as shown in the renderings the FM backers released.
I’m not sure why this particular concern keeps getting repeated.
Thanks
Not too helpful though as I don’t understand why having a stadium neighbor would force them to move.
Negotiating position is my best guess.
Saying putting the stadium there forces her to close puts her in the position to ask for/demand improvements or relocation to a better spot. Also, there may be elements of her model that would be affected that we are unaware of too.
Tailgating?
Do the powers that be want to suppress tailgating because they look at it as lost revenue of sales that could have been made in the stadium?Every hot dog and beer that is consumed in the parking lot is probably one less that is sold in the stadium.Income from the light rail traffic and money made from fans at the Mall of America before and after the games may also factor into some of this.Maybe,the parking fees would offset this,however more security and portable toilets would be needed.Lots of things to consider.
by we are marshall on Jan 17, 2012 9:19 AM CST reply actions
I don't know if that is a major factor in opposing the Arden Hills site.
But 20,000 tailgating spots would cut in to concessions revenue.
by Midnight Rambler on Jan 17, 2012 9:21 AM CST up reply actions
Except
The tailgaters in Arden Hills will be paying to be there. Currently, the tailgaters in downtown Mpls do not provide any revenue that is captured by the stadium commission. In AH the parking revenues, and possibly some additional money for a designated tailgate area, will be captured on-site for the benefit of the owner/tennant.
I imagine there are some parking lot owners in Mpls who are afraid their $40 & $50 per stall cash cows are about to be slaughtered.
by Lars in SLP on Jan 17, 2012 9:39 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
I don't know that having extensive tailgating outside an Arden Hills stadium necessarily means the team's concessions profits would suffer.
They might suffer, but they might not. Or, they might trade profits from concessions for profits from merchandise. It’s possible that they will still have opportunities to sell concessions to tailgaters. Tailgating and concessions might actually work well together if the concessions offer items that the tailgaters don’t usually bring with them, like things that are either deep-fried or frozen. I just find it hard to believe that the Vikings would be in favor of an idea that wouldn’t make them money, so if they like the idea of tailgating, then they probably think there is profit in it.
Life being what it is, one dreams of revenge.
- Paul Gauguin
http://www.dailynorseman.com/
The last word I heard from the Vikings
Was that they could make the dome or Linden Ave sites works. That doesn’t sound like a non-starter (meanwhile, the Farmers Market had “issues”).
Also, I’m not sure Linden Ave is any bigger.
It’s funny that what’s missing from this discussion is any data about how many fans want to tailgate. Are or will there be 21000? Do existing tailgating spaces fill with tailgaters (my sense is no)?
Finally, I think fans sounds be a little skeptical that the team is motivated by tailgating. Being shrewd business people, they would certainly rather sell you food and drinks rather than have you bring your own, but tailgating if a fan-friendly thing to focus on. They want money (which is fine, I’m just saying don’t romanticize their motivations).
You're right, the Linden Avenue site doesn't seem all that much bigger than the Metrodome site.
And, considering the site is just 300 feet from a house of worship that has Sunday services, the site is tricky. The Basilica of St. Mary’s is already expressing concerns with the idea of building a stadium so close to it, rhetoric that would likely increase if there was a stronger push to build on that site. And, getting into an argument with clergy isn’t the sort of thing that will garner good press for the project.
As far as the Vikings saying the Metrodome site is a non-starter, I’m just going off the information Vikings PR guy Jeff Anderson has been sending me for the last few months.
I completely concur that it is very difficult to get a strong read on fan interest in tailgating. Do current tailgating sites not sell out? Is that because fans aren’t interested in tailgating or because the current tailgating experience is lacking? If widespread tailgating was available, would it become the ingrained fan tradition the team thinks it will, or would it be a fleeting fad?
My opinion of the Vikings desire to increase tailgating is that it provides the team many more hours to sell merchandise to fans and, if the tailgating is as much of a draw as the games themselves, then it might help keep selling out games regardless of the team’s record. It’s like Disneyland, they make more money off of you if you stay longer. Is that too romanticized?
Life being what it is, one dreams of revenge.
- Paul Gauguin
http://www.dailynorseman.com/
It's not quite that lose
The basilica is at Hennepin and 94, basically. The next block north is Laurel Ave, then there is 394, then Linden Ave.
I’m not sure exactly ow they would situate things, but there should be a full city block and six r so lanes of freeway between them.
Parking could be an issue though.
It was the Pioneer Press that reported the site was 300 feet from the Basilica of St. Mary's.
It would be great if it wasn’t quite that close to the proposed stadium site.
Life being what it is, one dreams of revenge.
- Paul Gauguin
http://www.dailynorseman.com/
I'm just looking at the map
And out my window ;)
Better looking out the window and at a map tonight...
It’s actually beginning to feel like January in Minnesota. Stay warm :)
Life being what it is, one dreams of revenge.
- Paul Gauguin
http://www.dailynorseman.com/
Awesome read
Great stuff as usual SG. At this point, I just want a stadium built in Minnesota. Arden Hills makes the most sense, but of course making sense and the Vikings haven’t gone hand in hand for quite some time now. It really appears that the Minneapolis folks will get their way no matter what at this point.
Proud contributor to Daily Norseman and SB Nation Minnesota.
Follow @eric_j_thompson
by Eric J. Thompson on Jan 17, 2012 10:09 AM CST reply actions
Thanks Eric :)
I just hope that Minneapolis’ slow response to this issue doesn’t result in a poorly planned stadium option for the people of Minnesota. Even the “cheapest” stadium option is still more than $900 million, at that price, let’s hope it isn’t a lemon.
Life being what it is, one dreams of revenge.
- Paul Gauguin
http://www.dailynorseman.com/
Even a decade ago people where calling the metrodome the "Great Inflatable Toilet"
That should be all any one needs to know about the metrodome and is as far as I am concerned, it is the last place that should be considered. The state of mn has done a great job building sports facilities recently (TCF, the X, Target Field) why do we insist on ruining this tradition when the Vikings are concerned?
Will the Real Thor Please Stand Up ... ?
by the Real Thor on Jan 17, 2012 10:38 AM CST via Android app reply actions
Beats me.
I haven’t gotten to Target Field yet (I’m not a baseball fan), but by all accounts it provides a wonderful fan experience. It would be nice if a new Vikings stadium provided something that nice too.
Life being what it is, one dreams of revenge.
- Paul Gauguin
http://www.dailynorseman.com/
One thing about playing at TCF
That is not being talked about is beer. There is no beer sales at TCF since it is locates on university property.
Will the Real Thor Please Stand Up ... ?
by the Real Thor on Jan 17, 2012 11:09 AM CST via Android app reply actions
There is no beer at TCF because
(Former) UMN President Bruininks stamped his feet and took his ball home when the legislator told him all or nothing for alcohol sales. Originally he only wanted alcohol only sold in the suites to “his friends” paying the big bucks. The legislator told him that if he wanted to sell in the suites he had to sell in general concession and he cried foul and decided not to sell it anywhere. Alcohol sales are allowed on campus. Northrop Auditorium sells alcohol during certain events, it just requires the proper permit. If the Vikings were to play there for any considerable amount of time, they would be granted the permits.
Oh lord...
The alcohol plan was known and approved by the legislators well in advance. The outcry against the decision came right before the stadium opened and was BS populist pandering. You can also tell it was BS pandering b/c no one ever said word one about the fact that alcohol sales were restricted at both Mariucci and The Barn FOR YEARS and yet that was never an issue. Not that it matters, because the U has something call Constitutional Autonomy and can make the decisions for themselves. Rather than challenge the law in court the U simply took the Legislature up on it’s offer and went with no alcohol sales.
The university is subject to the general lawmaking power, to the extent that it does not impede the regents’ ability to manage the university.
I don’t believe that defining rules around alcohol sales impeeds the regents’ ability to manage the university so your Constitutional Autonomy argument falls flat.
But I will agree with you that this became an issue late in the game, but the reason it came to head was because fans were used to their ability to purchase beer at Gopher Football games at the Dome and were upset over losing that privilege while only the wealthy got to retain it.
The potential issue comes with the words directly following that.
(1) the law promotes the general welfare, (2) it applies to all state and local government agencies, and (3) it does not affect internal management of the university.
Since when is deciding when and where to serve beer not the internal management of the University?
but the reason it came to head was because fans were used to their ability to purchase beer at Gopher Football games at the Dome and were upset over losing that privilege while only the wealthy got to retain it.
And this is the Legislature’s purview for what reason?
The fairness thing is a crock btw.
Just because people got used to buying beer at the Dome for Gophers games doesn’t make it a travesty that the U decided to make the same decisions as every other B1G university and the same decision as almost every other institution in the NCAA.
Still a bad decision though
Meaningless paternalism.
But not beyond questioning
From fans and the legislature.
Questioning, sure.
But it’s the U’s decision. The legislative meddling is pointless. When given a choice the U has made it clear they’ll leave the money on the table. The choice then is to deny the U a source of funding it could use by making the options all or nothing or simply allow the U to go with the plan that ok by the Legislature until there was political profit to be had in opposing it.
By "not being talked about"
I assume you mean, “consistently mentioned among the top three concerns?” ;)
Point my point thoughts.
- I suspect that the Minneapolis city leaders didn’t proactively work with the Vikings to find a stadium solution because they didn’t expect the team would get a better offer. Waiting so long to address the issue with the Vikings doesn’t look like leadership, it looks more like brinksmanship.
It’s possible. Personally I think the bigger issue is that there isn’t a consensus plan from the City. The mayor and city council president support the Dome site. According to multiple reports, the rest of the council and the business community do not. Which is why the 2025 Plan released right after Rybak started pushing the Dome site hard shows a new FB stadium on the west side of downtown (the new Sports District) and shows the Dome site as a new residential area that bridges downtown and the U. Without a consensus plan, Rybak and the CC president (Johnson?) ran with the Dome site.
No matter the reason, it’s annoying/frustrating to see them flail about instead of being proactive.
- I suspect that city leaders’ interest in the urban, public transportation lifestyle meant that the Vikings’ interest in renewing the tailgating tradition took city leaders by surprise. They didn’t have an answer to the challenge of the Vikings wanting to change the fans’ game-day experience, so they ignored it.
I don’t think they’ve ignored it so much as no downtown stadium solution can do much to include it. I think it’s simply a fact that being downtown pretty much means significantly less/no tailgating.
- I suspect those advocating the Metrodome site thought they could regain ground from Arden Hills by going with a site that wouldn’t require them to negotiate with multiple property owners (like the Farmers Market site that the Twins favor for the Vikings) or require a site feasibility study** (like the Arden Hills site was subject to). But, shouldn’t any project involving millions in taxpayer money be subject to a feasibility study so potential hidden costs and problems can be accounted for?
Probably true. But keep in mind that the Dome site does not appear to be supported by anyone except those at the top of the City’s leadership. And as you note, any site should still have rigorous investigation done. In the case of the Dome site it might not be feasibility, instead, the focus would likely be on how does keeping a stadium on that site impact the long term plans for the east side of downtown (see: 2025 plan I linked to above)?
- I suspect that the Minneapolis mayor and city council are expecting, and will likely get, the governor’s support for their preferred site, regardless of how late or half-assed their leadership has been on this issue (only a four-page proposal for a multi-million dollar project?), because Minneapolis is the seat of DFL power in Minnesota and Governor Mark Dayton needs all the political support he can get in the face of a Republic majority in the Legislature.
I’m sure this is true, though the reasons for the support are unlikely to be strictly DFL vs. Republican related (i.e. I suspect a Republican legislator from downtown would also support a downtown site because it’s what the business interests in the area want).
- I suspect that the Metropolitan Sports Facilities Commission (owner and operator of the Metrodome) is incredibly uncomfortable with possibility of running the Metrodome without an anchor tenant to generate a large portion of the building’s $10-11 million in annual operating costs. Right now the Vikings are responsible for $6 million in operating costs at the Metrodome.
While I’m sure that the MSFC doesn’t want to lose their last tenant, it is also likely that the Dome will be demolished some time over the medium term (say approx next 10 years) if the Vikings end up somewhere else because the City will have better uses for the land (again, see 2025 plan).
Dome!
I am sorry but isn’t Minneapolis the same place the put a “CLOTH DOME” in a place where snow can pile up and demolish a million dollar roof? Minneapolis should be the last pace people want a dome. And these morons put up another one. Arden Hills or an alternative, but don’t repeat mistakes.
What the heck are you babbling about?
Are you saying that no stadium with a new roof structure (that won’t be anything like the Dome’s) should be built in the city of Minneapolis because that is where the Dome was put? Or are you saying that any roof is bad, regardless of design (even though there won’t be a snow issue with any new roof design) just because the Dome roof failed and as a result open air is the way to go?
Dome
I am saying, they already put up another cloth Dome and to say snow won’t be an issue is like saying there will be no snow in Minnesota. This city has always tried to cut corners and this won’t be any different. The cloth dome in the midwest anywhere is a bad idea. Minneapolis does nothing but have parking problems, rude people and just a sense of greed for every tourist or fan that comes to town. The New Statium should be put anywhere but there.
The city doesn't own the dome
And didn’t choose to replace the roof.
Nor would it have made sense to spend even more money and displaced the Viking for a year or more to put a different type of roof on a stadium who’s only tenant had a lease that is about to expire.
The issue is that Minneapolis is a cesspool.
And thus is untenable as a host city for Vikings anymore in his esteemed view.
I got that
But figured it would be good to straighten out a few facts.
Sports District Parking.
We already get lots of media warnings about traffic nightmares whenever the Twins and Vikings have concurrent events, despite the facilities being at opposite side of downtown.
Imagine the fun if they are both in such close proximity. It’ll be like a demo derby with fans fighting for the same parking spots.
Hey! Maybe they can grab some new revenue by selling sponsorship to Red Bull. Yeah, the Red Bull Crash Car Xtreme Parking Extravaganza! The losers can be taken directly to the northside scrap yards.
by Lars in SLP on Jan 17, 2012 2:22 PM CST via mobile reply actions
Wow...
Nevermind…
Up ahead in the distance, a shimmering light, just beaconing at the end of the tunnel:
-18,000 new jobs
-600 acres just for tailgating
-100% privately financed!!!
-within an hour’s drive of over 15 million people…
Oh yeah! It’s LA Stadium at Grand Crossing (the Thing that awaits us if the Star Tribune’s investigative reporters finally do find Jimmy Hoffa’s body buried in Arden Hills).
Or then there’s Farmer’s Field, right in the heart of downtown L. A, (aka, the Other Thing):
-All privately funded
-30,000 jobs!!!
-plus an upgraded convention center, boosting L.A.’s standing in size in the nation in that category…
What these two projects need is an NFL franchise. Hmmm… Wonder where they could buy one with all their filthy lucre?
Naw, there’s no rush, Minnesota legislators. Everything’s quite under control. Pay no attention to those silly dueling L. A. billionaires behind the curtain. Houses never fall on witches, do they?
Can anyone spell “cover story”? (“Gee, how could anyone have forseen it? We lawmakers (yes, make one law and they call you a lawmaker) were just being cautious for the people of Minnesota… Blah, blah, blah…”) Film at 11: Shock and awe.
Welcome to the Hotel California…
With all the things going on in Minnesota right now...
I wouldn’t blame the Vikings for feeling like the grass might be greener in Los Angeles. Or one of the suburbs in the Inland Empire.
Life being what it is, one dreams of revenge.
- Paul Gauguin
http://www.dailynorseman.com/
Speaking of which,
The original Hotel California is down the banal in a little town named Girls Dangle.
If they built there a roof is not needed, the bleachers only need to seat a couple hundred and labor is cheaper. But revenues will admittedly be several pesos lower.
by Lars in SLP on Jan 17, 2012 5:31 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
*and the town is Todos Santos.
Curse this phone.
Humor is lost when it isn’t succinct.
by Lars in SLP on Jan 17, 2012 5:33 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
I can remember times when people loved the HHH Metrodome
1) 1987 and 1991 World Series: By then, it had grown on us as a unique homefield advantage while opponents hated the place far worse than we ever did.
2) Anytime it was loud: Sure, it was still kind of a dump, but it was fun when it was one of, if not the, loudest sports venues in the world at the time.
3) Most Vikings games because of #2.
4) Anytime one scored some rock star parking. It meant a lot compared to somewhere like Arrowhead/Kauffman.
5) Okay, so I can’t come up with much else, but there were times that we loved it, even if it had to grow on us or could have been much better all along.
so tired of this
so tired of this this shouldnt be that difficult… The vikings tried to get a deal done with minneapolis years ago,, however they were told " sorry we are not interested, there is nothing wrong with the dome" finally the vikings are forced to look else where. they find a willing partner in ramsey county.. all of a sudden minneapolis wants to come to the party… they backed their way into this discussion.. complete BS.. Minneapolis is already a giant cluster f*ck during sporting events.. this would only make it worse… also in the minneapolis plan it calls for additional monies going to renovate target center and the convention center… Im pretty sure that the excel center would not be too thrilled with their direct competitor recieving pubic money, while not being included in the deal..
We have a great opportunity with arden hills.. not only will we be giving our team a new home for the next 30+ years, we will also clean up a huge eye sore in the north metro, all while improving the surrounding infastructure in that area ( which is scheduled to be redone within the next 5 years anyways, but is also included in the overall cost). This is where the vikings want to be.. They are offering the largest contribution to this site,, Minneapolis has enough entertainment sites,, its time to spread the wealth a little bit…
It would be nice if being proactive, having the site vetted, and all that other stuff paid off for Ramsey County...
But, we’re dealing with political machinations. Who knows what will happen?
Life being what it is, one dreams of revenge.
- Paul Gauguin
http://www.dailynorseman.com/
TIME FOR A NEW FLAG TO FLY IN FRONT OF YOUR STATE CAPITAL
If the Arden Hills is not picked as site your new flag should read ,
WE ARE THE BITCH OF THE MINNEAPOLIS MAFIA AND THEY GET WHAT THEY WANT ! IT JUST TAKES US A LONG TIME TO DECIDE HOW TO SUGAR COAT ALL THE BULLSHIT IT
by THORS BLOOD THIRSTY HAMMER on Jan 17, 2012 11:56 PM CST reply actions
Once upon a time, before Al Gore invented the interweb thingy...
…those of us who followed the political moves to build what became the dome knew only what was reported in newspapers, radio & tv.
I never thought I’d live to see this battle over the site locale repeated. I’ll be dead by the time the issue can resurface again.
I won’t be around to say I told you so, so I’ll offer this suggestion now: build on a site with enough land so the next stadium, in 30-40 years, can be constructed on the same parcel of land while the old one remains in service.
Minneapolis needs to preserve the Farmers Market or Dome areas so they will have somewhere to build the replacement for Target field in about 2050.
The new facility we are about to build should be built on the AH site and arranged in a manner that will accomodate construction of the next facility on the same parcel.
There is enough acreage available to plan ahead so the next generation of Minnesotans don’t have to repeat this whole scenario yet again. Those who fail to learn from history’s lessons are doomed to repeat their mistakes. As we can all see here, regarding stadia, those mistakes are often quite costly.
To summarize, build this stadium and the next one at the same locale, Arden Hills. It’s a two for one deal.
by Lars in SLP on Jan 18, 2012 6:15 AM CST via mobile reply actions

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