The 2006 and 2007 Draft Review. Also Known As 'Why The Vikings Are Where They Are'

by Ted Glover on Jan 17, 2012 1:00 PM CST in Minnesota Vikings 2012 Off-Season

Before I get to my story, I just want to say that my football life in 2012 has started off SO much better than 2011. This time last year, Ohio State was getting ready to drive off a cliff, but we didn't know it yet. The Vikings just went 6-10, and deep down we knew we had broken through the guardrail, we just didn't want to admit it.

Fast forward to Sunday: Ohio State now has Urban Meyer, a great recruiting class, and well, we all know what happened to the Packers. For those of you that missed the game thread, let me relay the absolute joy my Dad and I shared with about 3 or 4 minutes left in the Giants-Packers game:

Phone rings:

Me: Hello?

Dad: CRRRRYYYY BABY RODGERS CRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRYYYYYY!!!! AAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

<click>...dial tone.

Me: Hysterical laughter for about 10 minutes. My dad just went all 24 years old on me.

He didn't even bother to say hello or goodbye. Folks, if I can carry that kind of sports hate into my 80's, I will have lived a complete sports life, as long as the Vikings win a Super Bowl.

Are the Vikings still a dumpster fire? Yeah, probably. But just for a day, football life is good. Mike Tice has more playoff wins at Lambeau than Mike McCarthy, Daunte Culpepper has more playoff wins at Lambeau than Aaron Rodgers, ALL my Packer friends here look like somebody kicked their puppy, and the Vikings problems don't seem as bad as they did on Saturday.

Ah, schadenfreude. How I love it so.

Okay, let's get back to reality. With Rick Spielman the old/new GM, DC Purple did one hell of a missive on the Vikings draft history with Spielman in the mix, but I think we need to go back one more year, to 2006, and marry it to 2007, to see why the Vikings are currently in the spot they are.

Let's do this, after the jump.

There's a saying in the NFL that goes something along the lines of 'Green Bay sucks balls'. There's also a saying that goes something like 'if you pick the wrong quarterback in the draft, it will set your franchise back 6 or 7 years'.

Hence, 2006 draft, 6 years ago. It went a little something like this:

*Round*	*Overall*	*Player/Position*
1	17	Chad Greenway/LB
2	48	Cedric Griffin/CB
2	51	Ryan Cook/C
2	64	Tarvaris Jackson/QB
4	127	Ray Edwards/DE
5	149	Greg YOU'RE MY BOY Blue/S
6	185	Tyrone Culver/DB

First round pick Chad Greenway has been a very good player for the Vikings, solid pick. Cedric Griffin was on his way to becoming a very solid CB before his injuries, so to say he was a bust is misleading, at best. But look at those other two second round picks, Cook and Jackson.

Ryan Cook stuck around for a few years, bounced around in positions and as a starter and back up...and now he's no longer on the team. A guy like that, taken that high, should be a starter entering the prime of his career. He's just another in a long line of offensive linemen picked that were complete and total busts.

Let's look at Tarvaris Jackson. Look, I don't want to either. But it helps us get to the root of today's issues. Jackson was drafted out of Alabama State, and was immediately annointed the Quarterback of the Future. At the time, the Vikings needed one, since Daunte Culpepper was traded and Brad Johnson was a stopgap, at best. Jackson fizzled, and never really got a fair shake from either the fans or the coaching staff. By the end of 2006, Johnson had proved ineffective, and Jackson was put in before he was ready. He started the last two games of his rookie season, didn't really impress, yet was named the defacto starter heading in to 2007. After a 4 interception, OT loss to Detroit in week 2, Jackson was benched in favor of Kelly Holcomb for two games, he got hurt, and the Vikings went back to TJ...who went a combined 15-42, 208 yards passing against the Bears and Cowboys. It then became the Brooks Bollinger and Kelly Holcomb show for 3 games, and then back to Jackson for the remainder of the season. The Vikes won 5 straight to get to 8-6 and were in control of their own post season destiny, but Jackson had two bad games, the Vikes finished 8-8, and I think any opportunity for Jackson to become a trusted starter had vanished.

Yet once again, 2008 saw Jackson inserted as the starter heading into training camp, without any real competition. After an 0-2 start that saw Jackson demonstrate the same flaws in his game he had since 2006--indecisiveness, inaccuracy, and an inability to lead, he was benched in favor of Gus Frerotte, who got the Vikings on the verge of the playoffs, until he got injured. Back comes Jackson, who has his best game as a pro against Arizona...and then arguably one of his worst in a home playoff loss to Philadelphia.

Entering 2009, the VIkings were a good quarterback away from making a serious Super Bowl run, and landed Brett Favre...yet did nothing to address the quarterback situation long term in the draft...because Jackson was still on the roster.

Now, we have a couple of good, young QB's on the roster, but the talent we had around them between 2007-2009 has gotten old and gone away, primarily on the offensive line. Why, speaking of them, let's look at the 2007 draft, shall we?

*Round*	*Overall*	*Player/Position*
1	7	Adrian Peterson/RB
2	44	Sidney Rice/WR
3	72	Marcus McCauley/CB
4	102	Brian Robison/DE
5	146	Aundrae Allison/WR
6	176	Rufus Alexander/LB
7	217	Tyler Thigen/QB
7	233	Chandler Williams/WR

Notice anything? Yeah, no offensive linemen were taken, and the defensive back they took was a bust. Looking at the line, the left side was money--Bryant McKinnie was good, and Steve Hutchinson and Matt Birk were perennial All-Pros. But the right side of the Vikings line was still bad, and it really needed to be addressed. And it wasn't.

In all seriousness, the right side of the Vikings line hasn't been any good since David Dixon and Korey Stringer (RIP, Big Man) were there over a decade ago. Why it has been neglected so long is a mystery to me, and why it wasn't addressed in 2008...or 2009...or 2010...has been mystifying.

But what isn't mystifying is how 2006 and 2007 have affected the state of the Vikings as the calendar now shows 2012. We all know how good AP has been, how promising Sidney Rice could be if he stays healthy (and I guess we could say the same for AP now, sob), and Brian Robison is a solid player.

Greenway, Griffin, Peterson, Robison. That's it. That's all that's left.

So from 2006 and 2007, the Vikings currently have 4 of those players on the roster, and Cedric Griffin might not be back next year. At a time when guys from those drafts should be entering or be in the prime of their years, Minnesota finds themselves with a glaring lack of talent on the roster, and guys from these two drafts should be more well represented.

I'm not saying that the Vikings should have forseen injuries to players; that's ridiculous. And it's just as ridiculous to criticize the Vikings by doing one of those obtuse 'redrafts'--looking down in rounds and see who was available when the Vikings took player 'X', while player 'Y' was still on the board is just as silly. And even sillier is criticizing them for guys picked in the late rounds--those guys sticking around and becoming starters, much less stars, is such a crap shoot that anyone you find that far back who sticks around is a bonus.

HOWEVAH...

--In the 2006 and 2007 drafts, they had 2 first round picks and FOUR second round picks. Three of those four second round picks are no longer with the team, or no longer in the NFL. They should all be starting.

--They invested in a quarterback long after it became apparent that said quarterback was not going to be their long term option. That forced them to go after Favre in 2009, and had he not caught lightning in a bottle that year, this would have essentially been a lost decade.

That's pathetic.

Quite simply put, the only way the Vikings are going to get back towards the top of the NFL is by drafting better. If 2012 turns out to be more like 2006 or 2007, the franchise will be set back ANOTHER half decade or so.

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Wait, you have Packer friends?

Say it ain’t so Ted. Say it aint so.

"At this point, what we got to lose, right? So we might as well throw caution to the wind and hit people in the face."
--Vikings DE Jared Allen

by NMVike on Jan 17, 2012 1:04 PM CST reply actions

Those drafts have Childress all over them

All the moving around, up and down in rounds 2 and 3 clearly were Childress’s MO.

Now in defense of some of these players, the Vikings reached for TJax and Cook, and then never developed them properly. TJax was a raw, developmental project, who probably would have been available in the 4th or 5th round. Then he should have been the teams #3 QB for at least 3 years before he moved up the depth chart.

Cook played center in college. I don’t know about you, but I have always heard from coaches that it is easier to move linemen closer to the ball than it is to move them further away. We see tackles move to guard all the time, but rarely do we see centers or guards become tackles. Cook had tackle size, but they should have developed him as a center. Cook likely would have been available in the 3rd or 4th round.

Here’s the pick that doesnt sit well with me: Marcus McCauley. Some draft experts were saying that after his junior year performance, he might land somewhere in the 2nd maybe even the 1st round. Then he had a lackluster senior year and he fell. Did the Vikings do their homework and find out why? Was it poor work ethic? Lack of movtivation? Injury? What? Did they simply say, here’s a guy that should have been drafted in the 1st and now he’s still on the board in the 3rd, pull the trigger? McCauley was also undersized for the tampa 2 scheme. That pick still boggles the mind.

"At this point, what we got to lose, right? So we might as well throw caution to the wind and hit people in the face."
--Vikings DE Jared Allen

by NMVike on Jan 17, 2012 1:18 PM CST reply actions

“In all seriousness, the right side of the Vikings line hasn’t been any good since David Dixon and Korey Stringer (RIP, Big Man) were there over a decade ago. Why it has been neglected so long is a mystery to me, and why it wasn’t addressed in 2008…or 2009…or 2010…has been mystifying.”

Apparently Marcus Johnson, Ryan Cook and Phil Loadholt didn’t play right tackle. Oh wait, yes they did, and they were all 2nd round picks. That position has not been neglected, it just hasn’t been filled properly.

In order to judge the efffectiveness of these drafts, you need to compare them to other teams. No team hits on every pick. Just looking at those lists, I don’t think the Vikings did half-bad. Greenway, Griffin, Edwards, Peterson, Rice and Robison were all key contributors for the ‘09 team. I agree that the biggest area of weakness has been drafting linemen and defensive backs, but I don’t think it’s for lack of trying. Griffin, McCauley, Tyrell Johnson, Asher Allen and Chris Cook were all 2nd-3rd round picks. I already mentioned the right tackles this team took.

by frank_grimes on Jan 17, 2012 1:27 PM CST reply actions

Which kind of further drives home my point

If they hit on guys like Cook and McCauley, they don’t need to keep going back to draft more tackles and DB’s, at least in the early rounds. It’s a cycle of futility that doesn’t allow the team to go forward, because they have to keep going back and picking players at roster spots they shouldn’t have to…which if they’d done correctly, guys like Loadholt and Johnson wouldn’t have even been picked.

Yet they do, and not coincidentally, the offensive line and secondary are the two worst units on the team.

"Go hard. I mean, like relentless. I want a bunch of coaches that coach like their hair’s on fire, and I want a football team that goes for four to six seconds (per play) with relentless effort." OSU Coach Urban Meyer.

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by Ted Glover on Jan 17, 2012 1:48 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs

Still think Loadholt was the right choice. Hasn't panned out but no one has a crystal ball to look into the future.

\m/

by Edgecrusher71 on Jan 17, 2012 3:35 PM CST up reply actions

"The franchise will be set back ANOTHER half decade or so?"

Ted, you , like many, have not done your homework. The Vikings longest number of consecutive losing seasons is 3, the first 3 years of their existence, 1961-63. Ever since, the longest consecutive losing seasons is 2, from 1966-67, 1981-82(’82 being a strike year), 1984-85, 1990, 2001-02, 2006, and 2010-11. They also had 6 seasons where they finished 7-7 or 8-8.

In the fifty years of their existence, that’s pretty darn good in my opinion. Are we going through a phase of bad draft picks? I don’t know. I don’t think anyone knows. I feel certain that every GM or Director of College Scouting of each NFL team does NOT make every pick they take make the team. In hindsight, which is always 20-20, perhaps they should have made different picks. But of what importance is pointing fingers and throwing blame around now? That’s just water under the bridge. We just have to hope the right picks are made, the right free agents and undrafted players are taken, and enough make the team to help us get better. I prefer to support our club, not damn it. I want us to go from worst to first! Skol, Vikings!

"Never approach a bull from the front, a horse from the rear, or a fool from any direction." - Old Cowboy proverb.

by TexVike55 on Jan 17, 2012 1:59 PM CST reply actions

First off, I did my homework

And the facts speak for themselves. The Vikings have done virtually nothing this past 10 years, and were it not for Favre turning back the clock in 2009, it would’ve been 10 fruitless years.

I don’t care about 8-8 or 7-9 seasons or how many losing seasons in a row they’ve had historically. I want a team that is good enough to win a Super Bowl. I have an appreciation for Vikings history more than most people; I’ve seen a good part of it. And I am sick…SICK…of going 8-8, 9-7, or 10-6 with no real chance to win the Super Bowl. And with the exception of two or three seasons, that’s been the Minnesota VIkings in a nutshell since the end of the Purple People Eaters era.

Yes, you have to win to get in the post season, but take away 2009, there has only been one team the Vikings have fielded since the mid 70’s that I thought was a By God Super Bowl caliber team, and that’s the ’98 squad.

That’s it. Denny Green was probably the best talent evaluator the Vikings have had as head coach since Finks and Grant, but he could only evaluate offense. No one else, no one, has been able to consistently put together consecutive drafts that you can deem good to great. The only way to set up for a 4 or 5 year window is to have solid drafts several years in a row.

And the Vikings haven’t done that in awhile.

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by Ted Glover on Jan 17, 2012 2:25 PM CST up reply actions

solid drafts... exactly right.

Even solid FA acquisitions like Jared Allen and Steve Hutchinson aren’t enough to offset mediocre (or worse) drafts.

Especially at QB, I might add.

by Lars in SLP on Jan 17, 2012 2:39 PM CST via mobile up reply actions

I sure miss the Jim Finks days.

by Lars in SLP on Jan 17, 2012 2:42 PM CST via mobile up reply actions

Only one team since the mid '70's you thought was a Super Bowl team?

The ’98 team, the one that went 15-1, is the only, ONLY one you thought was Super Bowl quality?

You have to be joking.

Just throw out the 11-5 1988, 1992, and 2000 squads that went 11-5. And forget about the 1989, 1994, 1999, and 2008 Vikings that finished with 10-6 records. Many teams in the NFL would sell their souls to be on your list of unacceptable Viking records.

Get real, Ted.

"Never approach a bull from the front, a horse from the rear, or a fool from any direction." - Old Cowboy proverb.

by TexVike55 on Jan 17, 2012 6:21 PM CST up reply actions

If we can't laugh at ourselves, Packer fans will call us crybabies and we will be forced to kick their tooth in. I really don't want to go to jail (again).

by Alittlemore_cowbell on Jan 17, 2012 6:53 PM CST up reply actions

So you're telling me that you thought

going into the playoffs, every one of those teams were going to the Super Bowl, or were odds on favorite?

Okay, I’ll bite.

88: Bills, Bengals, 49ers, and Bears were a cut above.
92: Dallas and San Fran were better

And I could go through every playoff appearance and do the same thing, but you get the idea.

In 2000, I thought the Vikes were a borderline Super Bowl team…until they lost their last 3 games to lose home field advantage. Once it became apparent they had to go outside to try and win a game, they were done. Damn near everybody knew that except you, apparently. During the 90’s and well into the aughts, the Vikings lost 3 of 4 games outside on grass. I’m sorry, that’s not a Super Bowl team, especially if they had to go on the road in the playoffs.

And really, you thought those 10-6 teams were going to the Super Bowl? The ‘99 team that needed Jeff George just to get into the wild card round? Really? You get real. And no team would sell their soul for the string of one and dones the Vikings had in the 90’s. Did I cheer for them? Yes. Did I want them to win the Super Bowl? You bet I did. Did I think they were on par with what were

The Vikings have had good teams, but not elite ones, and the reason for that is, to a large part, poor drafts.

So quite frankly, you get real.

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by Ted Glover on Jan 17, 2012 9:23 PM CST up reply actions

I am quite real, thank you very much

It’s you, with your statement that in 50 years of Viking existence, only once in the last 35 years since the mid ’70’s had the Vikings a Super Bowl contender. Just once.

Frankly, I much prefer my reality to yours. In each of those years I mentioned, the Vikings had a chance to go all the way. Maybe not the best of chances, but a chance nonetheless. The 9-7 Giants are playing for the NFC title game, don’t forget.

To quote the movie, ‘The Adventures of Baron Munchausen’, “Your reality, sir, is nothing more than lies and balderdash and I am quite happy to have no grasp of it whatsoever!”

I am real, quite frankly speaking. It’s just a matter of whether you are a true fan of the Vikings as am I, or just a sunshine patriot.

"Never approach a bull from the front, a horse from the rear, or a fool from any direction." - Old Cowboy proverb.

by TexVike55 on Jan 18, 2012 8:33 AM CST up reply actions

I agree

pretty sure the packers backed into the playoffs at 10-6 and won the Superbowl.

by viking_#28 on Jan 18, 2012 9:52 AM CST up reply actions

yup...

last year they were the #6 seed, and the only way they got in was the giants lost to the eagles in week 17 on a near last second play (kick return for a TD, IIRC)….

by michiganpat on Jan 18, 2012 10:12 AM CST up reply actions

lots of other team fans would love

the string of one and dones the vikes had in the 80’s and 90’s….how about lions fans, compared to what they endured during the millen era?

or browns fans?

or broncos fans since Elway retired?

by michiganpat on Jan 18, 2012 10:15 AM CST up reply actions

Yes

I know what the previous explanation was trying to get across, but at least in those stretches in which there were losing seasons we had pro bowl caliber players at the big play position. If it weren’t for some of the greatest teams of all time, all Viking Super Bowls and the ‘88, ’89 Vikes, Vikings had a pretty good shot at championships. I think that instead of this win now attitude which in a perfect world, if we could draft future hall of famers and aquire Hall of Famers in free agency to win now and win, we’d have already done it. I will gladly wait 2-3 more years of rebuilding and solidifying a…Super Bowl caliber team for a decade. (yes that sounds outrageous but you know what I mean)

by Mike S on Jan 17, 2012 9:10 PM CST up reply actions

49ers

I meant ’88 and ’89 49ers teams

by Mike S on Jan 17, 2012 9:13 PM CST up reply actions

I see some of what you are saying but I hate this "super patriot" mentality.

People that think if you say something bad against your team or country that you hate it. This makes no sense to me, we are saying things because we love them and want the best for them. You shouldn’t blindly follow things, you should be asking why and if you are the person in charge of something, those whys are rightfully pointed at you. It is part of the job. To not voice your opinion hurts your team or country. If the Spielman traded a health AP for a 2nd round pick, you are telling me you would support the Vikes blindly and say, well I better support them? I would hope not, I hope you would get as loud as the rest of us and scream bloody murder and get that guy out of his position. That is why we point fingers, if someone is hurting something you love you don’t just say the heck with it and support that action, you try to change it.

\m/

by Edgecrusher71 on Jan 17, 2012 3:41 PM CST up reply actions

Are we going through a phase of bad draft picks? I don’t know. I don’t think anyone knows.

That’s where I stopped reading.

If we can't laugh at ourselves, Packer fans will call us crybabies and we will be forced to kick their tooth in. I really don't want to go to jail (again).

by Alittlemore_cowbell on Jan 17, 2012 5:25 PM CST up reply actions

I would suggest

Doing a comparative analysis with other top* GMs and what they did during this time period compared to ours.

*Is there consensus around the league on GMs that are considered great?

by TC Mooch on Jan 17, 2012 2:02 PM CST reply actions

Also...

By “suggest” I mean somebody that is not me because that’s a lot of work!

P.S. Thank you for this article, I really like reading analysis like this. THANKS!

by TC Mooch on Jan 17, 2012 2:02 PM CST up reply actions

No problem, and no offense

I don’t care what other teams do. I want the VIkings front office to do their homework and pick good players.

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by Ted Glover on Jan 17, 2012 2:27 PM CST up reply actions

It's looking like a majority of teams didn't get it right those years

Check out the Lions for instance. C Johnson looks like the only pick they got right. They did so well they took Stanton in the second in 07 and followed it up with taking Stafford #1 2 years later. Broncos took Cutler only to trade him away. All in all after looking over some of the other teams drafts from then I feel better about the players the Vikings still have from those drafts.

by VikesFanInTulsa on Jan 17, 2012 2:45 PM CST up reply actions

Another thing that hurts the present day Vikings

Is the lack of picks in the 08-09 drafts. Only 5 picks in each of those and only 4 out of those 10 picks in the first 3 rounds. This hurts the depth of the team. BTW half of those 10 picks were DB, OL.

by VikesFanInTulsa on Jan 17, 2012 2:52 PM CST up reply actions

Yeah, but keep in mind that the '08 draft

was the Jared Allen trade. At the time, Minnesota needed two things to really look like an elite team, at least on paper: a pass rushing DE and a legitimate QB. The Allen trade solved one of those problems, and it was a good deal for the Vikings. I have no issue at all pulling the trigger on a deal like that, as long as you don’t do it every year.

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by Ted Glover on Jan 17, 2012 3:30 PM CST up reply actions

Totally agree

I’d do that trade all over again. I was just pointing out that the lack of picks is part of the reason we find ourselves with a lack of depth.

by VikesFanInTulsa on Jan 18, 2012 9:04 AM CST up reply actions

It could be worse

The first team I looked at for this time period

2007 – Arizona Cardinals
RD SEL # PLAYER POSITION SCHOOL
1 5 Levi Brown OT Penn State
2 33 Alan Branch DT Michigan
3 69 Buster Davis LB Florida State
5 142 Steve Breaston WR Michigan
7 215 Ben Patrick TE Delaware
2006 – Arizona Cardinals
RD SEL # PLAYER POSITION SCHOOL
1 10 Matt Leinart QB USC
2 41 Deuce Lutui G USC
3 72 Leonard Pope TE Georgia
4 107 Gabe Watson DT Michigan
5 142 Brandon Johnson LB Louisville
6 177 Jonathan Lewis DT Virginia Tech
7 218 Todd Watkins WR Brigham Young

by VikesFanInTulsa on Jan 17, 2012 2:14 PM CST reply actions

Just some quick looking

I’ve looked over about a dozen teams drafts from 06-07 and have only found three or four teams that I would say did noticeably better than the Vikings. Those being IMO Ravens, Panthers, Packers, and maybe the Browns? (Thomas)

Here is the Pats draft for those years far from stellar considering the players that are still with them.

2007 – New England Patriots
RD SEL # PLAYER POSITION SCHOOL
1 24 Brandon Meriweather DB Miami (Fla.)
4 127 Kareem Brown DT Miami (Fla.)
5 171 Clint Oldenburg T Colorado State
6 180 Justin Rogers LB Southern Methodist
6 202 Mike Richardson DB Notre Dame
6 208 Justise Hairston RB Central Connecticut State
6 209 Corey Hilliard OT Oklahoma State
7 211 Oscar Lua LB USC
7 247 Mike Elgin G Iowa
2006 – New England Patriots
RD SEL # PLAYER POSITION SCHOOL
1 21 Laurence Maroney RB Minnesota
2 36 Chad Jackson WR Florida
3 86 David Thomas TE Texas
4 106 Garrett Mills RB Tulsa
4 118 Stephen Gostkowski K Memphis
5 136 Ryan O’Callaghan T California
6 191 Jeremy Mincey LB Florida
6 205 Dan Stevenson G Notre Dame
6 206 Le Kevin Smith DT Nebraska
7 229 Willie Andrews CB Baylor

I have noticed a lot of so called star players seem to be on different teams from these drafts so it looks like turnover from the 06-07 drafts is high.

by VikesFanInTulsa on Jan 17, 2012 2:40 PM CST reply actions

It does not matter

It only matters what the Vikings did in relation to players picked and their rankings. If the boneheads would have followed the rankings of a gosh dang website they would have done better. Much better.

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/prospectrankings/TSX/2006?&print_rows=9999

You do not take Ryan Cook ranked #221 in the second round at pick #51. You do not take TJack ranked #280 at #64 and using two third round picks to do it. That is called stupid and it has proven to be so.

What other teams did is irrelevant. What the Vikings did in many cases during the Childress era was REACH or use picks to trade up for busts. Childress did not care about the roster past winning one title. I give him credit because he almost did it but when it failed they did not adjust immediately to rebuild mode. Not a total rebuild but using the picks wisely going forward to get some depth that has starter potential and that could be developed whilst the veterans aged.

by MarkSP18 on Jan 17, 2012 3:01 PM CST up reply actions

I'd like to nomonate CBS sports' draft rankings for GM.

by Lars in SLP on Jan 17, 2012 6:02 PM CST via mobile up reply actions

Seriously dude?

DId you even look at the rankings? They had Reggie Bush #1, Matt Leinart #4, AJ Hawk #6, Michael Huff #10, Chad Jackson #17 and LenDale White #25. Maybe they’re USC fans or something, but the few rankings Mark threw out does not tell the whole story.

"At this point, what we got to lose, right? So we might as well throw caution to the wind and hit people in the face."
--Vikings DE Jared Allen

by NMVike on Jan 17, 2012 6:40 PM CST up reply actions

They also had Elvis Dumervil as the 19th best DE.

"At this point, what we got to lose, right? So we might as well throw caution to the wind and hit people in the face."
--Vikings DE Jared Allen

by NMVike on Jan 17, 2012 6:45 PM CST up reply actions

Was it Childress....

….or did it really start with Speilman? Because I see a correlation when Speilman took the reins with Brezinski. I realize that Speilman did not really have much to do with the team until 2007, but it seems our FO may be showing a history of “reaches”.

I hope I’m looking at this wrong, and that the guy who always uses the word “flashes” can actually “flash” and find some good talent to build with in the future.

Mark, I think your on to something, and hopefully the FO can go all Packers on this draft and pick solid (not flashy) players that will pan out.

Either way….SKOL VIKES!!! (with renewed vigor)

I will not be PONDERing anything, ever again....I'm so tired of this pun. Maybe we could use antonyms to be different, like: "FORGET about last season, as we COGITATE about winning in 2011!"...Whatever, SKOL VIKES!!!

by J.RO on Jan 17, 2012 6:44 PM CST up reply actions

Ok

I know you love cbssports, but those rankings do not tell the whole story. For one, Cook played Center in college, scouts liked his size and thought he projected as a tackle. Turns out they were correct because the Vikings played him at tackle. However, it makes sense that they would rank him so low based on a projection. They rated him as the 17th best OT prospect in the 2006 NFL draft. For comparisons sake, lets take a look at the tackles they projected higher than Cook:

Jimmy Martin (currently out of league)
Michael Toudouze (currently out of the league)
Kevin Boothe (starting LG for NYG)
Joe Toledo (member of Philadelphia PS)
Jhari Evans (starting RG for NO Saints)
Jonathan Scott (back up left tackle for steelers, his 3rd team)
Paul McQuistan (starting left tackle for seahawks, his 4th team, 19 career starts)

Not bad I suppose. Two starting guards and a couple backups. But honestly, Cook never should have been projected as a Tackle, nor should he have been drafted as one. The dolphins have returned him to his natural position, center.

Now lets look at TJack and the other QBs in the 2006 draft. TJack was rated as the 14th best QB. Here are the 13 QBs rated above TJack by cbssports.com:

Travis Lulay (Canadian Football)
Darrell Hackney (out of football)
Reggie McNeal (QB/WR in Canadian league)
Drew Olson (out of football)
Omar Jacobs (arena league)
Erik Meyer (arena league)
Bruce Gradkowski (member of Cincinati bengals)
Charlie Whitehurst (TJack’s backup in Seattle)
Kellen Clemens (member of St. Louis Rams)
Brodie Croyle (out of football)
Vince Young (back up eagles QB)
Jay Cutler (starting QB of chicago bears)
Matt Leinhart (member of Houston Texans)

I have said it myself, the Vikings reached for TJack. He should have been drafted in the 4th round as a developmental QB. But at least he is a starting QB in the NFL. Most of the QB’s that cbssports rated higher than TJack are not.

"At this point, what we got to lose, right? So we might as well throw caution to the wind and hit people in the face."
--Vikings DE Jared Allen

by NMVike on Jan 17, 2012 7:24 PM CST up reply actions

crap that didnt come out right

They are listed in reverse order.

"At this point, what we got to lose, right? So we might as well throw caution to the wind and hit people in the face."
--Vikings DE Jared Allen

by NMVike on Jan 17, 2012 7:26 PM CST up reply actions

The Vikings passed on Marcus McNeil

That is all I know. And that turned out to be a very bad decision.

After the second round they could have went in many different directions. I looked at needs and rankings.

Yes there are quite a few that turned out to be busts. So be it. At least they would have been going by some reasonable rankings. And for the most part, the guys at cbssports do a good job. If you want to claim that they do not then that is up to you. It seems like you are belittling their work. I have no respect for that unless you are doing the same work.

TJack was a major reach especially when they used two picks and really should have tried hard to keep Shaun Hill.

by MarkSP18 on Jan 17, 2012 9:56 PM CST up reply actions

So you can belittle the work of the TOA

But I can’t criticize cbssports? Seems like a double standard. I have no respect for that.

I have been very critical of TJack over the years. He showed flashes of tremendous potential at times (4th quarter at Denver in 2007). But he was also very inconsistent and injury prone in Minnesota (sound familiar?). But the fact is that he was a starter in the NFL this season. Only one QB that cbssports had ranked ahead of TJack can say the same thing. I agree that it was a reach, especially since they didn’t commit to letting him develop before they thrust him into a bad situaton. But it could have been a lot worse; The Vikes could have used cbssports rankings and drafted Brodie Croyle instead.

"At this point, what we got to lose, right? So we might as well throw caution to the wind and hit people in the face."
--Vikings DE Jared Allen

by NMVike on Jan 18, 2012 10:09 AM CST up reply actions

You are missing the point

They never should have taken a QB in the second round period.

They should have tried to resign Shaun Hill to go with Brad Johnson and then taken a QB late in the draft to develop.

The best tackle available was Marcus McNeil. They should have taken him. Ryan Cook and all the others you listed should not even have been a consideration in the second round.

So yeah, I do criticize the TOA for their second round selections and their decisions in free agency.

I think the rankings from cbssports speak for themselves. On the whole, they do a pretty good job.

by MarkSP18 on Jan 18, 2012 11:52 AM CST up reply actions

Youre making 2 points then, not one

One, youre arguing that the folks at cbssports are better at evaluating talent than the Vikings FO. And two, youre arguing that they never should have drafted TJack in the 2nd round. I agree with the latter arguement, even though TJack is still a starter in this league, something you should expect from a 2nd round pick. But I believe I have provided evidence that the former arguement you are making is subjective at best.

I think keeping Shaun Hill or commiting to Brad Johnson while developing TJack (after drafting him in the 4th round) slowly could have worked. But who knows, maybe someone else would have drafted him in the 3rd round. I’m sure most teams don’t consult cbssports before they make their draft boards. But that’s just a guess.

"At this point, what we got to lose, right? So we might as well throw caution to the wind and hit people in the face."
--Vikings DE Jared Allen

by NMVike on Jan 18, 2012 1:12 PM CST up reply actions

Just because CBS had them ranked there

Means absolutely nothing. The Vikings scouts saw something different. Maybe it was how they would fit into our system, who knows. There is no way they should take some rankings off a website over what their scouts say about a player. If that was the case why not just go with who Kiper has on top of his best available player. Give me a break.

by VikesFanInTulsa on Jan 18, 2012 9:09 AM CST up reply actions

Maybe after seeing how things have turned out they should?

by viking_#28 on Jan 18, 2012 9:58 AM CST up reply actions

The rankings are a comparison to what the TOA was doing

And frankly, some of these sites do a much better job than front offices do.

The Vikings hired Fran Foley who lied on his resume and when he selected Ryan Cook made a comment about the media who said Cook was a second day pick which was …

“don’t know New Mexico football.”

I refuse to be a sheep being led right off the cliff. I do not think the front offices do everything right and know what they are doing all of the time. Neither do I for that matter.

The facts are there for you to see. You can believe them or not.

All I know for sure is the rankings on this site were pretty good when you look at what the Vikings needed in that draft.

by MarkSP18 on Jan 18, 2012 11:56 AM CST up reply actions

will be interesting

I don’t know if anyone knows how much influence Spielman had in the draft from ’07-10 vs. Chilly….but other than the no brainer pics, as others have mentioned, a lot of the pics have Chilly written all over them….

by michiganpat on Jan 17, 2012 2:42 PM CST reply actions

I think Ted is right and the answer is pretty simple

Many people like to say that when you look back at drafts you are using hindsight. That is an easy answer and the standard one too. But it is a lazy way of thinking IMO.

First let us look at the draft needs at the time. Most sites felt that linebacker, offensive tackle, cornerback, and wide receiver were all needs. Here is the 2005 roster …
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/min/2005_roster.htm

If you look at the players that Childress let go and brought in you will see some curious decisions at best.

Unrestricted Free Agents: CB Ralph Brown; PK Paul Edinger; QB Shaun Hill; LB Keith Newman; RB Moe Williams; C Cory Withrow.

Exclusive Rights Free Agents: OG Adam Goldberg.

Re-signed: RB Joe Echema (formerly Adimchinobi Echemandu); S Willie Offord; WR Koren Robinson.

Acquired: OG Steve Hutchinson; LB Ben Leber; PK Ryan Longwell; RB Chester Taylor; FB Tony Richardson; QB Mike McMahon; DE DeQuincy Scott; OG Jason Whittle; S Tank Williams; FB Joey Goodspeed

Players Lost: RB Michael Bennett; WR Nate Burleson; S Corey Chavous; LB Sam Cowart; QB Daunte Culpepper; OG Toniu Fonoti; C Melvin Fowler; DE Lance Johnstone; LB Raonall Smith; CB Brian Williams.

Trading Culpepper and then not resinging Shaun Hill was a mistake. I can see the trade of Culpepper. But to not try and resign Hill was genius.

Losing Brian Williams also was a mistake as he went on to have some productive seasons.

So the Vikings still needed a linebacker, offensive tackle, and wide receivers heading into the draft. A corner back would have been nice too.

If you take a look at these rankings for 2006 …
http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/prospectrankings/TSX/2006?&print_rows=9999

… you see that the Vikings made major reaches in the second round.

When they were set to pick at #48 they should have taken the best offensive right tackle coming out of college in 2006 which was Marcus McNeil. They still could have selected Richard Marshall at #51 if Cedric Griffin was gone. They actually should have taken him as he was rated higher and has had the better career. Or they could have done something else and taken Maurice Jones Drew at #51. They had signed Chester Taylor but needed a backup to him too. That would have been interesting.

Then in the third round they could have select any number of high ranked players on this board like Max Jean-Gilles at #83. They could have selected Ray Edwards at #95 and would not have made the trade down to #127 with Philly.

Then in the fourth round at #115 they could have selected Barry Cofield or Miles Austin or Brandon Marshall who was ranked #207 but had a pretty good Hula Bowl and was rising up boards.

In the fifth round they should have selected Antoine Bethea over Greg Blue. Both safeties but Bethea’s measurements were much better and it has been proven that he was better.

They had traded down in the 4th including their 6th round pick to get Artis Hicks and pick #127. If they select Gilles then they do not need Hicks.

In the sixth round they could have selected Bruce Gradkowski who has been just as effective as TJack or they could have selected TJack here (or in the 5th) if they really wanted him and if he was still available. Or they could have selected Cortland Finnegan who was rated #200.

They did not have a 7th round pick as it was traded in 2005 to San Diego for Toniu Fonoti.

The 2006 draft could have easily been …

17. Chad Greenway LB ranked #16
48. Marcus McNeil OT ranked #35
51. Richard Marshall CB ranked #31
83. Max Jean-Gilles OG ranked #45
95. Ray Edwards DE ranked #95
115. Jason Avant WR ranked #99 or Miles Austin WR ranked #149 or Brandon Marshall WR ranked #207
149. Antoine Bethea S ranked #122
185. Bruce Gradkowski QB ranked #178

I will not even go into 2007 which would have been a lot different had they done this type of draft. The first three picks were fairly easy when you look at needs and the players available at the time. Some would say the Vikings may have wanted McNeil and had Griffin rated higher than Marshall. That could be true but the offensive lineman has to take precedence.

It is not so much what they did with the picks but who they picked.

This is not hindsight when you consider the needs of the team. The cbssports guys have proven to be pretty good. Their rankings are good. Of course there are misses but in this case the misses were by whomever was running that 2006 draft.

Ryan Cook was ranked #221 and TJack was ranked #280. Pretty spot on if you ask me.

If it really sad to see some website that has better rankings than what the scouts at that time had apparently.

by MarkSP18 on Jan 17, 2012 2:56 PM CST reply actions

This article makes me sad.

by Midnight Rambler on Jan 17, 2012 3:15 PM CST reply actions

A lot of hindsite going on here. . .

I think all you’ve done is remind us of what an a-hole Childress was.

by Win7ermute on Jan 17, 2012 3:46 PM CST reply actions

Childress was an ass...

….but our problems ran deeper than that….and run deeper than that.

This draft will be very important to our future.

This FA class will also have a lasting impact.

If the FO decides to clean house, cut the fat, and get really bold; I will back them. If not, then we may face more years mediocrity. My money is on the Vikings coming in strong this year in both categories….and I for one, am very excited to see what we can muster.

by J.RO on Jan 17, 2012 6:49 PM CST up reply actions

I think the most dissappointing part is

not that they missed out on the great players but that they couldn’t even get a few serviceable starters. They seem to like to reach for boom or bust potential and that’s left them with a few great players and nobody else who should even be starting.

by Simply_Greatness on Jan 17, 2012 3:53 PM CST reply actions

Its unfair to criticize past drafts

At the time no one knows how picks are going to end up, if everyone knew what Brandon Marshall and Miles Austin where going to do would they both of dropped below the fourth round. Or if everyone knew Jamarcus Russel would do what he did, he would of been drafted first overall.
Even the ‘almighty best drafting team in the world’ Packers have only retained 3 players from the 06 draft, and 3 from the 07 draft. Despite having 23 picks compared to our 15 they have only retained 1 more pick over that time than us, so what makes them better at the moment?
A lot more contributes to a teams success or failure than the players they draft, so to say that the 06/07 drafts are the reason we are where we are now is unfair to me…

by mns51 on Jan 17, 2012 3:56 PM CST reply actions 1 recs

I see your point

But the Packers won a Super Bowl with a roster largely built through the draft. So yes they have kept 1 more player from the 06 and 07 drafts than the Vikings did, but those players helped them win a Super bowl.

"At this point, what we got to lose, right? So we might as well throw caution to the wind and hit people in the face."
--Vikings DE Jared Allen

by NMVike on Jan 17, 2012 4:01 PM CST up reply actions

I disagree

Brandon Marshall was a player that many scouts thought was a post season riser. He dominated in the Hula Bowl. Marcus Colston was another WR that played well in the East West Shrine game that year and he was drafted in the 7th round.

When Childress decided to let Koren Robinson go (which was a good decision) and then brought in Martin Nance, Bethel Johnson, Jason Carter, and Billy McMullen while passing on some of these other WRs that were ranked higher, well then you get what you pay for.

It is a simple exercise when you are looking at past drafts. If some website rankings can do better than your own front office then there is a problem.

by MarkSP18 on Jan 17, 2012 4:50 PM CST up reply actions

At the time though

Marshall, Colston and Austin were all raw prospects no one knew if they will succeed, its only now when we have seen what they have done we can say “Oh it was a mistake we didn’t pick Colston instead of Greg Blue”. I don’t have a problem with our front office messing up lower round draft picks because they are notoriously hard to find and rarely succeed. We rarely miss on our first round pick especially since Spielman came in, however our second and third round picks are were the real problem is, the only value picks in the second round recently were Griffen and Rice and both have question marks surrounding them. To me this is were our scouting guys should be concentrating rounds 1-4, the best players are 90% of the time found here, and if we start to hit them more often we will definitely see a improvement.
To me a overlooked factor in all this is the coaching, if we had experienced coaches who groomed younger players, taught them the game then i believe we would have a lot more lower round picks succeeding and we really wouldn’t be in the hole that we are in now.

by mns51 on Jan 17, 2012 5:07 PM CST up reply actions

Here is a link for you

http://voices.yahoo.com/a-look-back-2006-east-west-shrine-game-hula-bowl-501790.html

This guy was predicting the success of some of the players I listed. Heck, even Jason Avant would have been better than the WRs Childress brought in.

It is not hindsight. It is looking back on the draft using an objective non biased tool to measure how the front office did compared to that tool.

cbssports did their rankings prior to the draft and were pretty good. So if the Vikings would have used those rankings they would have selected Antoine Bethea instead of Greg Blue. I do have a problem with that. Fran Foley did not know what the hell they were doing.

And if you are going to say that Marshall who had a great Hula Bowl and Austin who was rated #149 would have been reaches over TJack or Cook then I do not what to say.

The Vikings should have taken a much better WR earlier in the draft. They should not have taken Cook until the 6th round or later. Same with TJack.

I do believe though that this concept is something that some just are unwilling to grasp. Not that they cannot understand it, just that they do not want to believe it.

The front office is not above reproach.

by MarkSP18 on Jan 17, 2012 6:37 PM CST up reply actions

Maybe it is the sense of humor of the character..or something else...any mention of Glover Sr. brings this picture to my mind :)

by izziefans on Jan 17, 2012 4:07 PM CST reply actions

This is over-analyzed....

Having a great QB is what seperates the teams that are consistently good year after year from the rest of the pack. You can always add free agents if you have a QB that can win, players will want to go there. The problem is that it takes a few years to find out if that young QB is your franchise QB, and Chilly wan’t willing to take the time to find out. I like what I have seen so far in Ponder especially his pocket prescense, but he made a lot of rookie mistakes throwing into areas he should not have thrown. We need to give him learn and get him another target to throw to….not another bears cast off WR. Percy is the only WR on this team that deserves to start, the rest of them would not make most NFL rosters. Why not use more 2 tight end sets with Rudolph and Shiancoe (our 2nd and 3rd best receivers).

Didn’t we trade away a first and 3rd for Jared Allen in there?…. that was a pretty good move me thinks.
So, we need a few secondary players, lineman, and 2 or 3 receivers…..how many first and 2nd round picks do we have?

by Narby on Jan 17, 2012 4:28 PM CST reply actions

one 1st, one 2nd, possibly two 3rds.

"At this point, what we got to lose, right? So we might as well throw caution to the wind and hit people in the face."
--Vikings DE Jared Allen

by NMVike on Jan 17, 2012 4:44 PM CST up reply actions

I think that's backwards

If you have a solid team you can have a winning team without a star QB. See all of Viking history.

You might need the star QB to win it all (or QBs who win it all are instantly considered stars), but even a star QB can’t make a bad team good (see Carson Palmer).

by amiller92 on Jan 17, 2012 5:01 PM CST up reply actions

Injuries play a role

Imagine if Culpepper doesn’t blow out his knee? He was a major investment that the team was building around in 2004 and 2005, and then suddenly…gone. Imagine all the draft possibilities if Culpepper was still on the team in ’06-?

Ponder. Peterson. Percy. Purple Perfection.

by CCNorsemen on Jan 17, 2012 4:47 PM CST reply actions

Front office has been pretty good B+ to atleast A- up to 2009

given the triangle of authority which has obvsly gonna fail, we still made it to the 2009 nfc championship, we did have a good team, think about it, with a new owner in 2006, we steadily improved, We just have to prepared for the long run, trading picks Is never a good idea, I think Spielman has a clear state, he never had his chance to go with his vision, next years is gonna be rough, Frazier imo not gonna be here, Wilf hire. So well see

by eltwentyone on Jan 17, 2012 4:48 PM CST reply actions

No way

Look at 2008. They had already made the trade to get Allen. OK. Fine. So they gave up 3 picks in the first four rounds leaving themselves with a 2nd #47 and a 4th #117.

Why they would trade the 4th to move up for Tyrell is a mystery and has proven to be asinine. You do not give up picks when you are already short on them. You need to continually develop your roster by adding players that can contribute in two to three years with some development. The Vikings were running the team as if the depth did not matter.

Here are some rankings going into that draft …
http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/prospectrankings/TSX/2008?&print_rows=9999

Instead of moving up for Tyrell they should have stayed put and then taken DeSean Jackson WR. He was the highest ranked player on this board. If they did not want him then they could have taken Calais Campbell.

In the fourth round they could have taken Carl Nicks ranked #121 at #117.

In the fifth round they decided to make another boneheaded trade and moved up to get John David Booty. Now he was ranked #98 so maybe you let that one go.

But they still had picks #152 which they used on Letroy Guion ranked #205 instead of Ahtyba Rubin ranked #138.

They then got Sullivan ranked #114 at #187 and Jaymar Johnson ranked #293 at #193. They should have selected Pierre Garcon ranked #171 at #187.

Green Bay ended up taking Matt Flynn with our 7th round pick that we used to move up for John David Booty. More proof that Childress was a terrible evaluator or developer of QB talent.

So 2008 they could have had ..

Calais Campbell DE/DT or DeSean Jackson WR
Carl Nicks OG
John David Booty QB
Ahtyba Rubin DT
John Sullivan C
Pierre Garcon WR or Peyton Hillis

The 2008 draft alone is a big fat F. Sullivan makes it a D at best.

So 2006 and 2007 must have been outstanding to bring that grade up and we already know 2006 was a disaster considering they blew the second and third round picks.

by MarkSP18 on Jan 17, 2012 6:55 PM CST up reply actions

possible

See its kinda hard, if everyone know carl nicks, garcon, etc were any good they would have been drafted in the first round.

It goes depending on our needs, I agree in a way, if you have went to the nfc championship in 2009, you must have a good roster? right?

Cedric, sullivan, allen, greenway, adrian, harvin, loadholt, sidney rice, ray edwards, were huge contributers during our run, draft is a crapshoot, I would say we have done alright based on our records, 2009 12-4,

by eltwentyone on Jan 17, 2012 7:25 PM CST up reply actions

We have to get pro bowl players in the next two drafts

The next two drafts gonna be huge, or were gonna be in the basement for a long time

by eltwentyone on Jan 17, 2012 7:26 PM CST up reply actions

That is shortsighted

You need to constantly add to the roster. That way you have young players being groomed who may surprise. The simple fact is that many Vikings fans wanted Nicks in the 5th round during that draft even after they used the 2nd and 4th round picks on Tyrell.

Nobody knew that Nicks or Garcon would be good. But at that point in the draft they were good selections. Garcon was a much better prospect than Jaymar Johnson too.

Here is Garcon’s pre draft info …
http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=72952&draftyear=2008&genpos=WR

Garcon then attended Norwich University in 2004. Garcon played in 10 games with 44 receptions for 1,017 yards (23.1-yard average) and 13 touchdowns. His average of 101.7 yards per game receiving ranked 14th in the nation.

Garcon wanted to play at a more football oriented school, so he contacted the coaching staff at Mount Union College and transferred in 2005 making him the first of five players from the Florida area to play at Mount Union within the next three years. He earned All-Ohio Athletic Conference second-team honors, as he caught 68 passes for 1,196 yards (17.6-yard average) and 16 touchdowns. He also averaged 24.1 yards on 10 kickoff returns, returning one for a score.

As a junior, Garcon was named All-OAC first-team and was the recipient of the Ed Sherman Award, given to the league’s most outstanding receiver. He ranked third in the nation with 1,212 yards receiving, catching 67 passes (18.1-yard average) and 17 touchdowns. He scored twice while averaging 15.1 yards on seven carries, completed an 18-yard pass for a touchdown and scored 114 points. He also averaged 30.2 yards on five kickoff returns and 16.3 yards on three punt returns, gaining 1,518 all-purpose yards for the year.

Garcon was again a first-team All-OAC, in addition to receiving the Ed Sherman Award for the second time. In 14 contests at split end, he gained 955 yards on 67 catches (14.3-yard average) with 14 touchdowns. He picked up 61 yards and two scores on 11 carries (5.5 avg) and averaged 19.8 yards on five kickoff returns, finishing with 1,166 all-purpose yards.

In his three seasons at Mount Union, he guided the Raiders to a pair of national titles. He started 39 of 41 games for the team, setting school record with 202 receptions and 47 touchdown grabs, as his 3,363 yards receiving (16.7-yard average) rank second in Mount Union annals. He rushed 19 times for 176 yards (9.3-yard average) and four scores. He completed 1-of-2 passes for an 18-yard touchdown and returned 10 punts for 100 yards (10.0 avg). He also gained 491 yards on 20 kickoff returns (24.6 avg), including a touchdown. He recorded four tackles (three solo) and amassed 3,830 all-purpose yards. He was also a 4 x1 National Champion at Mount Union. Played in Texas vs The Nation All Star game returned a punt for a touchdown.

Now here are Jaymar Johnson’s pre draft info …
http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=73865&draftyear=2008&genpos=

STATS

In 2006 he played in 11 games … Had 30 receptions for 527 yards … Averaged 17.6 yards per catch … Was first on the team in all-purpose yards … Had 527 receiving yards, 241 punt return yards and 55 kickoff return yards for 886 total yards … Averaged 80.5 yards per game … Had 199 yards receiving versus Southern. In 2005 he played 10 games … had 215 yards on 18 receptions … averaged 11.9 yards per reception and 21.5 yards per game … had an 85 yards reception versus Alabama State. In 2004 he had 22 receptions for 285 yards … averaged 13.0 yards per reception … had a 36 yards reception versus Mississippi Valley … had 45 yards rushing versus Mississippi Valley.

Jaymar had 70 catches his entire career at Jackson State. Garcon caught 68 his first year at Mount Union.

But you are right though. No one knew Garcon would be any good especially when you compare him to Jaymar.

I do not know what it takes to show what a horrendous draft that was in 2008. Sullivan is the only player that saves that draft from a complete cluster fudge even after making the Allen trade.

If you cannot see that then I am all out of explanations.

by MarkSP18 on Jan 17, 2012 10:10 PM CST up reply actions

haha yeah I see it

All I was saying, with the disarray in our front office, we did a pretty good job, it got us to the nfc championship, now with a gm and vision, we can find players that actually fit the system or have potential to succeed, with the state of the nfc north, we need to do well in the next two years in the draft, hopefully Speilman can do something

by eltwentyone on Jan 17, 2012 11:04 PM CST up reply actions

I actually believe Spielman did well last year save for the Ponder pick

I was not a fan of picking a QB at that point. But in fairness, Ponder probably would not have been there in the second round. Washington may have selected him with their second round pick or some other team before. The rest of the picks were pretty good values except for Reed. But in the 7th round is when you can take those kinds of chances.

I understand the “all in” philosophy that Childress was running and how it was almost successful. But it was a failure in the long run because it left us with a depleted roster. The depth we have is not very good and there are not many players worth keeping. This is the main problem. You see it in the number of free agents we have this year. Something like 18. That is way too many players that can leave your team.

Even though they almost got to the Super Bowl, they were not thinking past that point. This is where Wilf should be paying attention. He should not let a coach or GM operate in that fashion ever again. It is his team after all and when he fires a coach he is stuck with their mess.

The reality is that Brett Favre almost took us to that Super Bowl despite Brad Childress and his KAO. It was a good thing that Favre was changing the play calls himself sometimes. Without a QB of Favre’s level, we would not have made it as far IMHO.

by MarkSP18 on Jan 18, 2012 7:50 AM CST up reply actions

Ted

I would love to see your dad broadcast a Vikings vs. Packers game.

☠★☪Creator of http:/vikescity.info/ and dedicated DN reader.

by UnBannedVikingholic on Jan 17, 2012 4:50 PM CST reply actions

The FCC fines would be too much to even be considered

The Daily Norseman
Off Tackle Empire
Follow @purplebuckeye

by Ted Glover on Jan 17, 2012 5:04 PM CST up reply actions

I would rather hear:

That &^%# Allen is a MONSTER!

Than

Gerald Allen is a monster.

by liveforadrenaline on Jan 17, 2012 8:35 PM CST up reply actions

Disgusting

Ya know it’s always a stupid move. Since this post goes back to that time period think about this. At the time Culpepper wasn’t coming back back Drew Bree was available. To me this was not hindsight I remember then thinking he had a a lot of talent. Even though Culpepper had some big number he threw so many passes up for grabs that Randy Moss caught. Anyway, Col Klink was too arrogant. Remember , he basically said he could develop some 5th round pick. Just with getting Brees think how the rest could have played out but Klink would have crewed it anyway.

by Volund the Viking on Jan 17, 2012 5:30 PM CST reply actions

Getting bored...

… with our search for a defensive coordinator. The way the team has gone about this has been so amateur! So the Falcon’s can lose their DC to the Jaguars (who then wrap up their own DC) and then interview and bring on board Mike Nolan. In the mean time, the Vikings are still twiddling their thumbs whilst it appears that Spagnuolo has already interviewed with the Colts and will interview with the Saints. The Vikings seriously need stability, but it seems as if they are instead heading for another season running the rapids! Just get someone in to do the job so that the team can go to the Senior Bowl knowing who they need to be scouting for the draft. Frasier needs to do what a Head Coach should do and that means take charge of this team and set it on a true course. Although it got weird at the end… it’s times like this when I really miss Dennis Green!

by blowfishes on Jan 17, 2012 5:36 PM CST via mobile reply actions

Defensive coordinator

You are correct. This is so pathetic , not to mention Greg Williams leaving the Saints for the Rams. On top of everything else we can’t do the one obvious thing that would get us on course, … hire a top notch PROVEN dc. This blunder will really set us back. The turnover of coaches over the next few years will put us in a bigger spin. I would take Tice or Green back compared to this regime. At least they got more out of what talent and spending resources we had.

by Volund the Viking on Jan 17, 2012 5:45 PM CST reply actions

It may not be that we don't want to hire a top notch DC

it’s probably that one won’t come here.

☠★☪Creator of http:/vikescity.info/ and dedicated DN reader.

by UnBannedVikingholic on Jan 17, 2012 7:34 PM CST up reply actions

Shoulda, coulda, woulda.

I just hope the FA & draft go well THIS year.

God knows how badly this team needs it.

by Lars in SLP on Jan 17, 2012 6:09 PM CST via mobile reply actions

Even if we have the best draft and FA of the year

Ted will say it’s a lousy one due to his pathological hatred of Rick Spielman.

"Never approach a bull from the front, a horse from the rear, or a fool from any direction." - Old Cowboy proverb.

by TexVike55 on Jan 17, 2012 7:05 PM CST up reply actions

And you will always be a troll,

troll.

If we can't laugh at ourselves, Packer fans will call us crybabies and we will be forced to kick their tooth in. I really don't want to go to jail (again).

by Alittlemore_cowbell on Jan 17, 2012 7:35 PM CST up reply actions

Only to those

of tiny minds and limited thought.

Fool

"Never approach a bull from the front, a horse from the rear, or a fool from any direction." - Old Cowboy proverb.

by TexVike55 on Jan 17, 2012 11:42 PM CST up reply actions

Except that

Ted has said several times that the team needed a real GM and if that was going to be Spielman, so be it. As long as someone was being held accountable for bad personnel decisions.

But hey, don’t let pesky things like logic and reason stop you from running your mouth off.

by Amrius on Jan 18, 2012 12:12 AM CST up reply actions

Ouch!

Oh! Ow! What a sharp riposte! What a cutting remark! Ow! Ohh! However will I survive this wit?

Pffft…

ROFLMAO!!!

"Never approach a bull from the front, a horse from the rear, or a fool from any direction." - Old Cowboy proverb.

by TexVike55 on Jan 18, 2012 8:37 AM CST up reply actions

You claim to know your history

OK. Then you would know that Spielman had nothing to do with the 2006 draft.

So where does Ted hate on Spielman in this post? I am not seeing it.

I think he does not like the overall drafting the last 10 years. Neither do I for the most part. Sure there have been some good picks. But there have been many, many bad picks and bad moves.

Then you come back with childish responses and want to be taken seriously. Why don’t you point out Ted’s hatin and then offer something more than immature responses. They do not lead to further debate. They only show that you have run out of things to say and have to resort to silliness. It is a sign of weakness.

Don’t be a sheep.

by MarkSP18 on Jan 18, 2012 12:03 PM CST up reply actions

That's what they needed...

… to have the authority and accountability in the same person. In any organization, when the authority and accountability don’t reside with the same person, you are doomed to failure. At least with the current situation, if Spielman doesn’t pick better players than the past few years, we will know he sucks and we can kick him to the curb. But, you can’t totally blame him now when he doesn’t have all the authority over picks.

The “triangle” system they had before is a disaster. I would think guys who are successful business people like the Wilfs could figure that out. It’s kind of surprising.

by HammeroftheGods on Jan 18, 2012 11:22 AM CST up reply actions

The draft is a total crap shoot

You simply don’t know how players will fare at the next level. Many top HS prospects are busts too and never excel in college. This is why free agency is actually more important than the draft because the FA’s are known quantities. What you want from the draft is impact players (moss, Peterson…). Those players are not usually available in FA and even if they are, teams have to over pay to get them.

If we draft well and add depth through the draft as opposed to FA, it merely saves us a little in cap space. What we need are players who can alter games (Allen, Paterson). We get two of the first 35 picks and we need impact players on both dudes of the ball.

by Vikefandc on Jan 17, 2012 8:03 PM CST via mobile reply actions

It is only a crap shoot when you do not trust the rankings

and when you take players that most think will go in the 6th round, in the 2nd round.

That is when it is officially a crap shoot. If Percy Harvin would have been a bust no one can blame the Vikings for taking him as he was ranked high. That is the crap shoot you speak of.

Taking players several rounds before they should go is the real crap shoot.

Ryan Cook and TJack were crap shoots.

by MarkSP18 on Jan 17, 2012 10:12 PM CST up reply actions

I gotta disagree with both of you...

… because I 1) think the draft is as important as FA, if not more so. FA also includes signing guys who are already on your team, which might be just as important, and 2) when you are in the business of evaluating players, you make your own rankings. Period. If they are going by other people’s opinions in evaluating talent, then they aren’t doing their job.

The only reason the views of other teams matter, the “rankings” as you call it, is because you don’t want to pick a guy way out of position. If you think a guy has first round talent, but will fall to the second round, then maybe you want to wait until the second round to get him. At your own risk of course. If you think a guy isn’t first round talent, but everyone else does, then you don’t take him period.

You also can’t worry about people “blaming” you (a.k.a. the fans) because you didn’t pick someone where they expected. Their job has to be to do what they think is best, and let the W and L be their validation. If you make trying to please the fans by your picks in the short run, you’re liable to not pick the team you want that will win.

Of course, any pick might be a bust. There are injuries. There are other reasons guys don’t work out. There is a lot of risk inherent in practically every pick.

by HammeroftheGods on Jan 18, 2012 11:18 AM CST up reply actions

I am not sure of what you are trying to say in relation to what we were saying

Just explain to me how taking Ryan Cook and Tavaris Jackson (using two picks) were not colossal reaches and therefore total crap shoots?

Teams do have their own rankings and often times they are bad. When a site like cbssports can do a better job at ranking players than your front office then you have a problem.

Front office people get fired too. And they should be criticized just like coaches and players. They are not above criticism.

Fran Foley was fired immediately after that awful 2006 draft. The Vikings did get Greenway, Griffin, and Edwards so most fans will say that was a great draft. Then they will want to compare it to other teams as if that matters. That has nothing to do with the Vikings. Other teams had different needs and were drafting in different spots and could have had more or less picks. Also, depending on their needs the draft class may or may not have been as strong.

I only care about the Vikings. The simple fact is while the Vikings got 3 pretty good players out of this draft, they could have done better. Much better considering they had 5 picks in the first 3 rounds.

You can look back at many different sites and get the consensus rankings as well. These are very useful when judging a front office.

Unless you believe the front office is beyond reproach.

by MarkSP18 on Jan 18, 2012 12:11 PM CST up reply actions

Fran Foley was fired because he lied on his resume

Not because of the draft. There was no way to evaluate the draft at the time of his firing because none of the players had set foot on an NFL field yet. I am willing to wager that Childress ran that war room and had final say on who was drafted anyway.

You keep using Ryan Cook and TJack as your evidence that cbssports is superior in their talent evaluation. You also have mentioned Marcus McNeil. in hindsight, McNeil is a no-brainer. The Vikings were not the only ones who missed on Marcus McNeil. Only San Diego got it right. Ryan Cook was rated as the 17th best OT, not bad for a guy who had never played OT in college. But history has shown that he was better at OT then several guys that cbssports ranked ahead of him. Should the Vikings have drafted him in the 2nd round? That is debatable. What I want out of a 2nd rounder is an effective starter. Ryan Cook started at right tackle for the Vikings for 40 games I believe. One of those games the vikings broke the single game rushing record in NFL history. And several of those record breaking runs were behind Cook. In my opinion Cook never got a fair shake in Minnesota. He should have been groomed behind Matt Birk to play center.

I am arguing the same thing about TJack. Cbssports had 13 other Qbs rated ahead of him. Only one of those 13 is a legit starter in the NFL today. Most of them are out of the league or out of football all together. Should the Vikings have traded up to draft TJack in the 2nd round? Again, that part is debatable. But, TJack had a decent year as the starting QB for the seattle seahawks in 2011; the best of his career. So again history has shown that cbssports is not superior in evaluating talent.

"At this point, what we got to lose, right? So we might as well throw caution to the wind and hit people in the face."
--Vikings DE Jared Allen

by NMVike on Jan 18, 2012 1:34 PM CST up reply actions

You could use other sites besides cbssports to show the reaches

TJack doing well in 2011 did not help the Vikings in 2006 and he did not help the Vikings that much throughout his development. Cook was a major reach. Many players ranked lower turn out better. It happens.

But starting in that second round is where it fell apart.

http://www.draftcountdown.com/archive/2006/2006-Top-Overall.php
http://profootball.scout.com/a.z?s=127&p=9&c=12&yr=2006&nid=83&lnid=124&rc=4

You are trying to make it seem like I am pimping cbssports. I like their rankings and they do pretty good overall. I provided other links above so that you can get the point.

Which is that the team’s rankings were bad in 2006. They did not go BPA in that draft. They reached based on needs which has proved to be a bad idea.

I am saying that you can take a site like cbssports or draftcountdown and use their rankings from 2006 to see how awful the Vikings rankings were.

by MarkSP18 on Jan 18, 2012 3:03 PM CST up reply actions

So by your defintion a reach is based on these rankings?

If that’s the case, then a reach is not always a bad thing. Tarvaris Jackson was considered the 14th best QB prospect and #280 overall according to cbssports. In this case, it is not a bad thing to be considered a reach based on the fact that he is a starter in the NFL and over half of the players ranked ahead of him by cbssports are not.

To me a reach is when a team takes a player long before any other team would have drafted him. In other words, they would have been able to draft that same player at a later point in the draft. With regards to TJack, if I remember correctly, the report was that the Vikings had their sights set on Kellen Clemens, QB from Oregon. According to this report, when the Jets drafted Clemens in the 2nd round, the Vikings panicked and traded up to get TJack. Considering that the Vikings had a pick before and after Clemens was drafted, I don’t buy that report.

Here’s the thing, unless we are privvy to every team’s draft board, we will never know how NFL scouts and GM’s actually rated TJack. Obviously the Vikings thought that he wouldn’t be available when they picked in the 3rd round, so they moved up (ahead of potential TJack suitors) to get their guy.

"At this point, what we got to lose, right? So we might as well throw caution to the wind and hit people in the face."
--Vikings DE Jared Allen

by NMVike on Jan 18, 2012 4:26 PM CST up reply actions

I wasn't actually...

… commenting on whether they did a good job in that draft. I just don’t think the view that they need to make picks based on what other people rank players at makes any sense. What does make sense is to go back and look at the value they got for the picks they had. It shouldn’t matter whether or not they went against the grain of where other people ranked players. That was my only point.

They certainly could do better than they did in 2006. They could also have done a lot worse. It isn’t uncommon to have a flop or even two in the first three rounds.

But I agree, you have to judge them based on the results, which were mixed.

by HammeroftheGods on Jan 18, 2012 2:00 PM CST up reply actions

Sides of the ball

by Vikefandc on Jan 17, 2012 8:04 PM CST via mobile reply actions

Although I'll get skewered for it...

… it’s hard to call T Jack a total bust, even for second round. Maybe they could have gotten him in a later round, I don’t know. But, like him or not, he’s still a starting NFL QB albeit with a different team and uncertain future. There have been a lot of higher QB picks that have done worse. And, you never know, he might have a future a la Rich Gannon, who came into his prime later than other QBs.

by HammeroftheGods on Jan 18, 2012 11:10 AM CST reply actions

My friend

Consider yourself skewered! :) Seriously though, it just shows how some guys get a break and are given unwarranted chances to succeed while others, who may be better, are lost in the depth chart and never given a chance. Due to Childress’s stubborness, TJack got chance after chance after chance to where he was given another opportunity on another team. Sad really…

by Murgo on Jan 18, 2012 11:13 AM CST up reply actions

Well maybe...

… but as a fan, I’m not there in practice with the Vikings or the Seahawks now. The guy on the sidelines, whoever, Charlie Whitehurst, MIGHT be better. It’s easy to keep thinking there’s someone better when you never see anyone else get a chance. Often, when the backup gets out there, you discover he’s worse or the problems are more with the team than the QB.

For the Vikings, the fact that over the past 2 seasons we’ve had a whole slew of QBs struggle, including T Jack, is evidence to me the problem is with the team. We are shallow and lacking talent on the O-line and wide receivers.

What I would say is, rightly or wrongly, that Childress isn’t the only head coach to view T Jack as the best guy they could find to start at QB. He might be the 31st best QB in the league (come on, Tebow is 32), but because there are 32 teams he gets to play.

by HammeroftheGods on Jan 18, 2012 11:27 AM CST up reply actions

TJack was a bad pick at the time and that is what we are talking about.

What he is doing now after 5 years in the league is irrelevant. He should be better now. He was not good enough for us though.

We are looking at April of 2006. TJack was a major reach in the second round especially when you use two third round picks to select him.

There is no way anyone can claim that was not a major reach.

by MarkSP18 on Jan 18, 2012 12:19 PM CST up reply actions

Well, maybe...

… but a lot of second round picks flop completely by this time. I did make the caveat that it might have been they could have picked him up beyond the second round. I don’t know how other teams rated him.

Fact is, he is still starting in the league.

by HammeroftheGods on Jan 18, 2012 1:56 PM CST up reply actions

Vikings win despite draft woes

The Vikings have not drafted well for the past 20 years. Take a look at the link below and see the entire Vikings draft history.

http://www.nfl.com/draft/history/fulldraft?teamId=3000&type=team

Some MAJOR first round busts: Derrick Alexander, D. Underwood, Troy Williamson…. In fact, over the past 20 years, I would say we had 6 first round hits. These are: Robert Smith, K. Stringer, R. Moss, M. Birk, K. Williams, AD. We had very good picks in D. Rudd, D. Culpepper, C. Hovan, C. Greenway and B. McKinney (I’m willing to add Harvin here if he can play a majority of games in 2012). Eleven or twelve quality first round picks in 20 years or roughly 50-50/60-40 split on first round picks. The Vikings have been especially bad in late rounds. Of the 73 round 5 or later picks over the last 20 years, I count 4 starters for our team. That’s about a 5% success rate. So late round picks are generally worthless.

If you look at the number of starters from each draft (guys who have started more than 16 games total for the Vikings) my informal count is 44 starters over 20 years or 2.2 a year. Now if you want quality starters (those in the upper half of their peers – it’s less. You may want to subtract folks like Troy Williamson, Tyrell Johnson, Ryan Cook, K. Udeze. The 2006 draft produced five players that started more than 16 games for the Vikings (Greenway, Griffen, Cook, T. Jack, R. Edwards) — making it the best draft in the last 20 years in terms of finding starters. I would argue that Greenway, Griffen, and Edwards were quality starters (before Cedric’s knees blew out). The next best draft was either: the 1992 one that produced four starters; the ‘95 or ’02 drafts that both produced three quality starters.

Two points here (and this is where it gets interesting!):

1. History tells us that the Vikings are not likely to get more than 3 quality starters this year. If we can land 2 or 3 quality starters and one or two below average starters (3-5 starters overall), it will be a great draft by historical Vikings standards.

2. Despite relatively poor drafting, the Vikings have had a record of 174-146 over the past 20 years (a 54% winning percentage). If you take out the last two years since its harder to assess those drafts, our winning percentage is 57% despite only adding about 2 starters per year via the draft.

How did the Vikings do so well over such a long period of time while drafting relatively poorly? Free agency.

The fastest way for the Vikings to turn the team around is by signing key free agents. For example, if we sign a top tier OT, we move Johnson to guard to replace Herrera, and then we draft Blackmon — who has the chance to be an impact player. This might be a much wiser route than drafting an OT. The key with high picks is to get impact players. How many OT’s in the league are impact players? Impact players make others around them better. Moss made Carter better because coverages had to focus on Moss’ ability to get deep. Favre made Rice better, Peterson makes Ponder better…..

I would look at the positions that have the most impact on the field: QB, WR, Safety, DT. This is where our top picks should be focused. Plug the other holes (OT, LB, CB) with FA’s.

by Vikefandc on Jan 18, 2012 12:15 PM CST via mobile reply actions

Matt Birk was a 6th round draft choice

But I agree with you. Some of the Vikings draft choices over the last 2 decades have been horrendous. 2005 might be the worst draft in team, if not league history. I am not a blind sheep like Mark thinks some of us are, but I also think that the drafts have improved under Wilf/Childress/Spielman/Frazier.

"At this point, what we got to lose, right? So we might as well throw caution to the wind and hit people in the face."
--Vikings DE Jared Allen

by NMVike on Jan 18, 2012 1:38 PM CST up reply actions

All I am saying is that I do not blindly trust the front office

There have been plenty of blown opportunities in the last 5 years. Sure they have grabbed some great players early but the moving up to select unnecessary players using draft picks to do so is proving to not be a very wise decision.

by MarkSP18 on Jan 18, 2012 3:06 PM CST up reply actions

We agree more than you think

But I think Childress was largely responsible for all the moving up in the 2006-2010 drafts. I could be wrong. I haven’t researched Spielman’s record from his Miami days. But just based on the way the 2011 Vikings draft was run, my gut tells me it was Childress who didn’t mind wheeling and dealing draft picks until only 5 picks were left in the cupboard.

I don’t blindly trust the FO either. But to their credit, the vikings had a talented roster from 2008-2010, with one glaring weakness (a ~~young~~ QBOTF). Unfortunately the Vikings coaches have not shown the ability to develop the younger talent to complement and ultimately replace the aging veterans. At the same time the FO did trade away several picks that they could have used to add depth. It’s a two part problem. But I think the coaching is the bigger problem. I believe that the F.O. CAN evaluate talent. I just think they gambled away too many draft picks.

"At this point, what we got to lose, right? So we might as well throw caution to the wind and hit people in the face."
--Vikings DE Jared Allen

by NMVike on Jan 18, 2012 4:55 PM CST up reply actions