"It's a Process," A Really Long Process
Just when fans of the Minnesota Vikings and residents of the state of Minnesota thought that the stadium debate would be guided by some clear political leadership, Governor Mark Dayton called a press conference. Mark Dayton has always struck me as a likeable guy, the kind of person who would be a good neighbor or somebody you'd want in your book group. However, when the cameras are on him and he has to be a political leader he looks sweaty and sickly, like he did yesterday during his news conference to address the stadium proposals he received last week.
I don't blame Dayton for being anxious about the situation, if I had to deal with as charged an issue as the Minnesota Vikings stadium situation I'd be popping Paxil like Tic-Tacs. However, the stadium debate has been on the political horizon for a long time and was something that Dayton spoke about when campaigning for governor. What everyone was looking for yesterday was for Dayton to reveal which site he would support. What we got was a list of pros and cons for each of the sites under serious consideration.
A definite answer, it was not.
What did we learn from yesterday's stadium developments? More after the jump.
But what did emerge from the swampy mess was that pretty much no one agrees on what site would be ideal. The team still prefers the Arden Hills site, but has said that they will not increase the team contribution from $425 million to $700 million. Dayton and his stadium point-man, MSFC chair Ted Mondale, said the increased team contribution would be necessary because Ramsey County probably wouldn't be able to raise its portion of funding through a 3% food and beverage tax. Minneapolis mayor R.T. Rybak and the Minneapolis City Council have said they think that the ideal site for a new stadium is the Metrodome site because that project costs the least and would also include money to renovate Target Center ($100 million). Governor Dayton said he felt the most feasible sites were the Metrodome and the Linden Avenue site, but that both of those sites had serious questions that needed to be answered before he could endorse either of them.
In his response to the governor's findings, Lester Bagley, the Vikings' VP of Public Affairs and Stadium Development, stated that Arden Hills was still the team's "ideal" stadium site, but that if building a stadium there wasn't "politically achievable" that the team is willing to work with legislators and Minneapolis city leaders on a plan that is politically achievable. Bagley stressed that this development was progress. When asked by reporters how it could be progress when it looked like nothing had been achieved, Bagley said that, despite how things might look from the outside, it was a "process" and that the process was indeed moving forward.
So, what's the upshot of yesterday's announcements? What concrete information can the fans take away from the Governor Dayton's findings and from Lester Bagley's response?
Not too much.
Of all the sites mentioned, we seemed to learn the most about the Linden Avenue site. The Linden Avenue site, not far from the Basilica of St. Mary's, seems to have the political edge--at least it does at the moment. A site in Minneapolis, it can take advantage of redirecting revenues from a tax that currently pays the bond on the Convention Center, it has support from downtown businesses, and, according to the governor, has greater potential for "additional economic development and job creation"* than the Metrodome site. Building at this site wouldn't require the Vikings to play three seasons at TCF Bank Stadium, meaning the team wouldn't lose game-day revenue or have to make costly upgrades to TCF Stadium to bring it up to NFL standards. Financing for the $995 million site would require a $450 million contribution from the team. Dayton favors using revenue from electronic pull-tabs to finance the state's portion of the funding. Unfortunately, the Linden Avenue has opposition from Rev. John Bauer, rector of the Basilica of St. Mary's. Probably not surprising that a house of worship that conducts Sunday services isn't thrilled at the idea of a stadium being built nearby.
As the other site that the governor thought was the most feasible, the Metrodome still has an edge, but maybe not as much as the Linden Avenue site. On Tom Pelissero's Tuesday night show on 1500ESPN, Minneapolis mayor R.T. Rybak said that the speed with which the Metrodome could be rebuilt is an advantage. He elaborated that the building could essentially be stripped to the bone and then rebuilt with a bunch of luxury boxes so the team can start making more money faster. I can't help wondering how far down they would consider the building's "bone". Would the cramped concourses and lousy bathrooms be part of the bone, or more in the range of muscle and fat? How about the crowded locker rooms? I have this fear that attempting to build a functional, safe, modern stadium on the bones of the cramped, inconvenient Metrodome is kind of like trying to build a super model on the bones of John Merrick, the Elephant Man. It may be possible, but you'd need one heck of a surgeon to pull it off.
Well, after the press conferences gave us such nebulous material to ponder, I chatted with fellow DN writer Ted Glover about our impressions. Ted and I agree about a lot of things, but yesterday's developments fall into the same category as The Clash and Buddy Holly** where we agree to differ. These developments make Ted feel gloomy, I see it as more of a chess game with a lot of moves still on the board.
If, after Dayton's press conference Bagley had given the state an ultimatum or had said that the team wouldn't work with Minneapolis, I would have felt pretty gloomy too. But I see the fact that the team is willing to work with Minneapolis city leaders and state legislators as a good sign because, if the team really wanted to flee the state, yesterday would have been a great opportunity to announce that intention. As long as the team still wants to be in Minnesota and is willing to keep working with Minnesota lawmakers to find a way to make it happen, I have hope that a Vikings stadium deal will get done--despite how murky the issue remains right now.
*This quote was used to describe both the Linden Avenue site and the Arden Hills site.
**I love The Clash and Buddy Holly and think that they had a long-reaching influence on music. Ted isn't as sold on them.
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A Process????
Continuous BS’in your state for years is hardly a “process”. It’s called “POLITICS”. The process was done a long time ago.
While I'd love to think that no other state in the union has to put up with political nonsense...
Minnesota just doesn’t have that market cornered. You’re right, there’s a lot of BS flying around in Minnesota, especially comes to the stadium situation, but at least the Vikings haven’t said they are moving to Los Angeles. As far as hope and progress go, that isn’t much, but it is better than nothing.
Life being what it is, one dreams of revenge.
- Paul Gauguin
http://www.dailynorseman.com/
I have to disagree.
It works better for them as the elephant in the room. They don’t say it because they don’t have to.
by Shawn Gillogly on Jan 19, 2012 6:21 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Before they do it
They will threaten it. They aren’t at that stage yet.
by amiller92 on Jan 19, 2012 7:43 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
They already did.
They said they wouldn’t play in the Metrodump past this lease without a new deal already in place.
How much more specific would they have to be?
by Shawn Gillogly on Jan 19, 2012 7:51 PM CST up reply actions
No
They said they wouldn’t sign a new lease without significant progress on a new stadium.
Either way
We haven’t heard THEE “Ultimatum” yet. I would guess that wouldn’t come until this session begins or possibly until it ends. If they don’t get a proposal passed by the end of this session, they are definitely gone. If they don’t even have a location narrowed down and funding figured out by the start of the session, they may be gone. I would guess that Wilf would give at least a “you’ve got 2 weeks to come up with a plan to submit through legislation or else the Minnesota Vikings will pursue our other options”
White Horn Gold Pants
I think that's too pessimistic
But it’s not outside the realm of possibility.
I also disagree that something has to happen this session.
But I have nothing to back that beside boundless confidence and optimism. Or maybe that’s caffeine talking. Meh. Either/or.
Be glad you don't live in WI
We have to deal with constant door knocking from recall people, not to mention during the last recall election my mailbox was under assault from both democrats and republicans… 2 to 3 mailings EVERY DAY and now they want to recall the governor too. You think this process is maddening, try having your whole legislature quit working on passing bills because they are all too busy campaigning – ok sorry for the rant, I am just so fed up with political bullshit (no matter which state)
"You can write articles and do whatever you want, you can break down every player. Good, bad or ugly. But we just aren't good enough as a team, as a group. Offensively, defensively and special teams, from the No. 1 on the roster to the last man on the roster. We just aren't good enough. It's as simple as that." - Chad Greenway
Look at the bright side
After this recall fails, I don’t think they have anybody else they can try to recall.
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by Christopher Gates on Jan 19, 2012 9:47 PM CST up reply actions
The only thing we learned yesterday
is that no one at the state level wants to take the lead on the stadium issue. No one.
Your fantasy football expert since Jerry Rice's rookie year.
True.
From the way Gov. Dayton ended his press conference, it kind of sounded like he was turning it over to the legislature to hassle with now. I don’t know if he thinks his role in the debate is over, or if Dayton expects his role to be handled through Ted Mondale, his point-person on the issue.
Life being what it is, one dreams of revenge.
- Paul Gauguin
http://www.dailynorseman.com/
That's all he can do...
The factions in the legislature haven’t shown the ability to even begin to coalesce around any one plan. Until they do he could pound his fists on the podium and posture all day long and it wouldn’t do a bit of good.
And, to hear Kurt Zellers talk about it...
The stadium issue isn’t a priority. That doesn’t seem to bode well.
Life being what it is, one dreams of revenge.
- Paul Gauguin
http://www.dailynorseman.com/
i learned when
to promptly shut off an online stream… (when they give the idome fella air time) and that if the politicians around here were dogs their tails would be firmly planted in their collective asses due to fear
The governor had little to say
Behind the curtains a group of legislatures worked for “at least 6 hours” on a stadium bill, and they said all feasible sites (sorry iDome, and truck topper) were being looked at despite the governor’s remarks. This makes sense, if you know how the process is supposed to work. The governor is not the one who is going to write up a bill, that is not his power he can only veto or sign it. His word may have some sway but it is not up to him to decide on a location per say. He laid out his concerns which were mainly funding, he does not want the county to circumvent any referendum
"You can write articles and do whatever you want, you can break down every player. Good, bad or ugly. But we just aren't good enough as a team, as a group. Offensively, defensively and special teams, from the No. 1 on the roster to the last man on the roster. We just aren't good enough. It's as simple as that." - Chad Greenway
I had to Google him because I forgot his first name.
Kind of embarrassing because I was involved in a college production of the play The Elephant Man.
Life being what it is, one dreams of revenge.
- Paul Gauguin
http://www.dailynorseman.com/
That's why we have the BNL
“I’d buy you John Merrick’s remains…”
Rybak is an idiot.
No one who matters (read: his own city council or the Vikings) likes the idea of using the bones of the Dome (which according to a radio interview yesterday means keep one side of the Dome and rebuilding the rest) for the new stadium. I couldn’t decide early on if he was clueless or had a game to play. I’d now go totally with clueless.
Yeah, I'm not quite sure either.
Adding a bunch of luxury boxes to the Metrodome would increase the team revenues, but it wouldn’t do much for the average fan’s experience. In the post-9/11 world stadiums need to be designed with an eye toward greater fan safety. The cramped concourses at the Metrodome make it slow going to empty the building when people are calm and working together, it’s scary to imagine a panicked crowd trying to evacuate in an emergency. Any plan to rebuild the Dome needs to make the building safer.
Life being what it is, one dreams of revenge.
- Paul Gauguin
http://www.dailynorseman.com/
Um
If everyone needs to leave at once, you’re screwed in any stadium.
And the Vikes interest in a new stadium has nothing at all to do with safety and everything to do with revenue.
Which is not to say that leaving any of the existing stadium isn’t a terrible idea.
I realize that the Vikings interest in a new stadium is about increasing team revenue and not safety...
But those goals aren’t necessarily at odds with each other. Wider concourses would help move large groups of people to bathrooms and concessions more easily and make for a more pleasant game-day experience, but they would also make it easier for people to evacuate the building should there be the need to do so. All I’m saying is that if around $1 billion, give or take, is going to be dropped on creating a new stadium, then it would be a good idea if the public interests involved in the project made the new stadium safer than the old one.
Life being what it is, one dreams of revenge.
- Paul Gauguin
http://www.dailynorseman.com/
I can't express my anxiety about this enough
There has never been a sense of urgency in what the state is doing.
The Minnesota Vikings currently have no place to play.
Politicians seem like they are constantly primping, not really governing. Make a decision.
Seems like the press conference added nothing to the conversation other than they officially don’t like the most thought out of all the plans(the one put forth by the team).
CONSTANTLY WORKING AGAINST THE WILFS
This is how the political system works
Wilf signed up for this when he wanted a publicly financed stadium. If he wanted it done at any reasonable speed, he would have built it privately.
by Amrius on Jan 19, 2012 4:53 PM CST via Android app up reply actions
competent people don't drag their feet for years, they get things done
by scottfromcmh on Jan 19, 2012 5:59 PM CST up reply actions
While that is true...
The group of people dealing with the issue continually changes. This is the third team ownership group to try to get a stadium built. And some of the elected representatives have changed too. Let’s hope this is like school—there’s nothing like a deadline for motivating people.
Life being what it is, one dreams of revenge.
- Paul Gauguin
http://www.dailynorseman.com/
I don't disagree
But people seem to think a legislature is like a corporation. In a corporation there’s a clearly defined hierarchy and it’s a hell of a lot easier for people at the top to push things through, even if the people below don’t agree.
All members of a legislature have equal power, more or less, and can’t really just push things through. They have to convince their peers to see things their way. Not an easy task considering all the different ideologies.
Point is, Wilf knew the gamble he was taking when he wanted to work with the state to get a new stadium built.
by Amrius on Jan 19, 2012 6:47 PM CST via Android app up reply actions
Perhaps he did.
Doesn’t mean Wilf should have to endure idiocy from the State Gov 1 minute longer than he’s legally obligated to, however.
by Shawn Gillogly on Jan 19, 2012 6:58 PM CST up reply actions
I don't disagree there either
It’s just foolish to think that the legislature will do anything before they absolutely have to. Its the only real skill college teaches people
by Amrius on Jan 19, 2012 7:11 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
A good friend is a lobbyist
She doesn’t work on this issue, but she cannot believe that Arden Hills is anything other than a stalking horse for the Vikes.
I think that’s wrong, but she insists that there is no way the y would honk Arden Hills would happen. She thinks it’s strategy.
Strategy
To do what, exactly? I don’t really understand what you mean by a “stalking horse”.
Also, I’m sure your friend is nice but I hate her job and everything it stands for
by Amrius on Jan 19, 2012 7:59 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
Well, you could google ;)
To get a new stadium somewhere else. There wasn’t any movement someplace viable, so light a fire under them by threatening Arden Hills.
As for lobbyists, Itrust me, you’d rather have them running the state than the elected legislators.
That's possible.
But I think it’s more likely that the Vikings made the mistake of taking the challenge to find a willing local partner literally and ignored the multiple reasons a site like AH wouldn’t be politically viable.
As i said, I think she's wrong
But part of me thinks that Lester Bagley, who went through this with the Twins, wouldn’t be that naive.
I've wondered that same thing about Arden Hills...
Whether the team has supported that location, in part, as a bargaining tactic more than a feasible site. I don’t doubt that the team thinks it would be nice to have such a large location to build on, but I have wondered if they really thought it would be possible to get the stadium built there. Letting go of Arden Hills can let the team look like it is giving up something in the bargaining/negotiating process so they can get a better deal in Minneapolis.
Life being what it is, one dreams of revenge.
- Paul Gauguin
http://www.dailynorseman.com/
So am I Buddy Holly, or The Clash?
:)
"Go hard. I mean, like relentless. I want a bunch of coaches that coach like their hair’s on fire, and I want a football team that goes for four to six seconds (per play) with relentless effort." OSU Coach Urban Meyer.
The Clash, of course.
Because the comments matter. ;)
by Shawn Gillogly on Jan 19, 2012 6:31 PM CST up reply actions
Oooo-eee--ooo you look just like Buddy Holly...
Oh-oh-oh and I’m Mary Tyler Moore!
Sorry, I couldn’t help twisting those words by Weezer.
You said you thought both The Clash and Buddy Holly were overrated. xP
Life being what it is, one dreams of revenge.
- Paul Gauguin
http://www.dailynorseman.com/
by Skol Girl on Jan 19, 2012 6:39 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Mary Tyler Moore had purple hair?
The Vikes aren't in a remodeling or reconstruction they are in a burn the place down and start praying they don't mimic the Lions rebuilding process.
She could have :D
Life being what it is, one dreams of revenge.
- Paul Gauguin
http://www.dailynorseman.com/
+1 On MTM
I thought it was cool the way her show opened with a scene of her washing her car wearing a Fran Tarkenton jersey…
I like your chess anaolgy
Many times in politics the main point is not what the politician is saying, but what is not being said. I heard Dayton narrow down which sites are “viable” and which are “not viable”. We also heard who pays for what and about how much. What we didn’t hear was how the state was going to pay for their portion. So my take on yesterday’s announcement is that their must be some agreement between Dayton and the Legislature’s leadership on how the State will raise money for a new stadium, but Dayton and the leadership are not in agreement on how much money will be raised, hence the big meeting at Dixie’s after the press conference.
What we heard yesterday could also be an announcement to the legislature saying “here are your options that you said the state could afford…pick one”.
Democracy moves very slow and is much like a chess match. This is just my $.02
One of Dayton's AH scenarios was directed at the legislature.
Namely, if they relent, and allow the Ramsey County board to levy a lodging, bar and restaurant tax— problem solved, here comes 430 acres of new development and economic stimulus.
Otherwise the legislature has to solve the financial dilemma regarding what Mpls can provide and the Vikings are willing to kick in.
The legislature is on the hot seat, not the governor. What they have available to choose from is one pair of willing partners, or a shotgun marriage.
by Lars in SLP on Jan 19, 2012 5:05 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
Summed up very well.
The legislature is on the hot seat, not the governor.
Totally agree with this. Dayton has been working with the Vikings and giving the legislature a number of financing and location options only to have the legislatrure continually say no to everything. I don’t understand the “Dayton isn’t a leader” talk because it seems to me that he is trying everything he can to get the legislature to do something besides so “NO”.
You can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make it drink I guess.
Because the executive has the bully pulpit.
He could have instantly raised awareness about this at any time. He chose not to.
Legislatures are, by definition, made up of hundreds of different agendas. They’re never unified, and only advance by making deals. The best legislators know this and do it. They don’t have a bully pulpit to work from.
So this ‘either/or’ thing is nonsense. Both parties have had a chance to do something. Both have failed. That’s because the real issue isn’t DFL/IR, it’s Minneapolis lobby vs the rest of the state. And both the former and present governors are too beholden to the Minneapolis Mafia to honk them off.
by Shawn Gillogly on Jan 19, 2012 6:07 PM CST up reply actions
"rest of the state"
Is hardly united behind Arden Hills. If they were it would have happened by now.
It’s want to keep the Vikes vs no subsidies for rich guys and no new taxes. There are Ds and Rs on both sides, and Minneapolis and rest of the state on both sides too.
The bully pulpit is not a magic wand.
Pounding his fist on the podium won’t magically make Republicans who won’t raise taxes under any circumstances and DFL’ers who oppose public funding for stadiums suddenly change their minds. I don’t even see why it would do anything to move lawmakers who occupy the middle of that space.
The bully pulpit is most effective when a lawmaking body is against something that has popular support overall. Unless there is a statewide desire for one site over another (which I don’t think there is outside of the most passionate Vikings fans) then the bully pulpit is wasted. Even if there were to be a huge base of public support for Arden Hills it would mean Dayton is going up against the two most hard headed legislative positions: No New Taxes and No Public Funding For Stadiums.
The thing that really gets me is the Vikings were told years ago they had to find a local partner because the state was not going carry all the water on this.
Now they are told the legislature will not allow a local partner to actually raise the funds in order to participate. Someone needs cranium-rectal surgery so they can recover the capacity to employ a little common sense— something that seems to be in short supply, legislatively.
The irony is that all the money Mpls peppers to use is from the special taxes the legislature allowed them to levy for purposes of renovating, expanding and operating the convention center. Now they say, hey we really don’t need that tax money over there so we can use it for a new stadium.
If Mpls doesn’t need the legislatively approved extra tax, then perhaps the legislature should just revoke it.
by Lars in SLP on Jan 19, 2012 6:20 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
no argument
If I were a Minneapolis resident, and the stadium doesn’t go through, I’d be asking, “Why are you still charging me the tax when you don’t need it.”
by Shawn Gillogly on Jan 19, 2012 6:23 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
That's because the they changed
Its the tea party republicans, who are new to the discussion, who are saying no to the local funding.
You also can't assume...
…that the challenge was made in good faith. It’d be great if that were true, but sometimes I get cynical about this sort of thing.
I would argue that
all the State Legislature is saying is that the local partner can’t get around the state law to have a voter referendum on a county tax hike. The county knows the vote would most likely fail and therefore don’t feel the need to put any gas on the fire by having it fail and then raise the taxes anyhow. Right now, their options are still open. The tax can still be put on the ballot. If I were them, I would do it at the last minute. Should it pass, then the State Law has been followed and the stadium will be financed. If it doesn’t pass, then they will be right where they are today.
They all know it won't pass
And the Vikes won’t want the PR that goes with having it voted down. The team will abandon AH long before there is a referendum.
Exactly
The team is looking for public funds to help pay for a new stadium during a recession. Even without a voter referendum for a new tax the Wilfs have sometimes been portrayed as greedy, out-of-state businessmen who are ruthlessly plundering Minnesota. A referendum will just increase that kind of rhetoric and that’s bad PR that the team doesn’t want.
Life being what it is, one dreams of revenge.
- Paul Gauguin
http://www.dailynorseman.com/
I know they are publicly posturing, but telling the Viking they must increase their contribution for a site that offers them a lower return is insulting and arrogant.
Rybak arrogantly ignores Zygi’s documented position that the Vikings will not commit as much money to a Minneapolis stadium as Arden Hills because the numbers just don’t work. He not only ignores it, he actually submits a plan that requires the Vikings contribute MORE money and receive less benefit. The audacity! Or the stupidity. Either way it makes me ill, and angry.
If the mayor wants them to stay in Minneapolis perhaps he could be more gracious and less insulting. At the very least he ought to make an effort to at least sound sympathetic to Wilfs’s plight. Statements like some of those made by the mayor aren’t likely to win many friends and influence people at Winter Park in a positive manner.
But maybe a guy who takes pride in always wearing mis-matched socks just can’t bring himself to follow the rules of public courtesy and convention.
by Lars in SLP on Jan 19, 2012 4:51 PM CST via mobile reply actions
Rybak is ignoring a lot of things...
…including the City’s long term plan for the Dome site, his City Council, the downtown business leaders, and reality. I wouldn’t take anything he says seriously after he actually suggested in public that parts of the Dome could be reused. It’s stupidity, not audacity.
I'll concede stupidity.
I was trying to practice public courtesy.
:)
by Lars in SLP on Jan 19, 2012 5:08 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
Audaciously stupid?
And arithmetically challenged, a trifecta!
by Lars in SLP on Jan 19, 2012 5:14 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
I have to question
that “audacity”. Let’s face it, currently, the Wilf’s, for AH want to pay roughly 1/3 of the cost and gain 100% of the profits while owning 0% of the facility. If I were to finance 1/3 of the cost and own the entire facility, then I would want 100% of the profits, because, after all, I own it. But I would share some of the profits for things like game day parking. Naming rights, however, should go to the owner of the building, not the renter.
It doesn't have to be that black and white
That’s all part of the plan. If they can figured out how those streams of revenue get distributed, it changes things. The reason why it’s nice to “own” the facility though is when The SuperBowl; Big10 championship games, Final Fours, soccer games, high school championships, concerts, ETC. I think the owner would like to collect on those. But for consistent or planned income, they should have provisions setup to allocate those parking/concession/ticket renevues until the facility is paid for.
White Horn Gold Pants
Those things happen
So infrequently or raising so little money as to make ownership unattractive.
Which is why the Vikes don’t want it.
Good points!
Rybak actually submits a plan that requires the Vikings contribute MORE money and receive less benefit.
Wow! Sounds kind of a ‘get out of metrodome’ jail fee, and get trapped at another location.
Rybak needs to see and understand that the ‘lease’ has expired and Vikings need a place to call home temporarily for the 2012 season. WHICH IS LESS THAN 7 MONTHS away (August preseason).
Priority #1 is where to call home. I could imagine TCF be done in a short order, and see where the chips fall on this. If NFL sees everyone still sitting on the pot and stirring it – they can begin process of finding better suitors for the Vikings – on their own schedule, not the legislative or political schedule.
The Vikings continue to have ultimate leverage in this. All we have is a political show of theater. Minneapolis continues to be shell shocked, arrogant, and stupid to think they are the best environment (and solution). Longer it drags on, it becomes an ‘election’ issue and anyone being an obstacle is at risk of being voted out. What a waste of a year we have coming up and idling of construction activities.
Vikings are part of the ‘Minnesota’ culture and identity. Worst case scenario is they move, and ‘Buffalo’ team relocates here. This will leave a bitter taste in everyone’s mouth and add $500 million to the price tag. Guess where the blame goes back to… the political process and MSC for inability to be a good host for the Vikings. Anyone involved with this epic FAIL should be shamed and scorned for the rest of their lives.
Vikings in 2012 will be a Wonder-ful year. Seriously!!
I also love the game of golf. My favorite golf GPS app is OptimalClub.
It is hands down the BEST golf aid you'll ever have for club distances
under current elevation and weather conditions. Stop guessing & score low!
by VikesFanSince1967 on Jan 19, 2012 5:17 PM CST reply actions
I do not see the Vikes playing anything at TCF
I think any plan that involves that will end with the Vikes moving.
And Minnesota won’t get Buffalo. That franchise is just waiting for the legal hurdles to make the jump north to Toronto. The Vikes leave, the NFL won’t come back.
by Shawn Gillogly on Jan 19, 2012 5:55 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
And FOX will simply air Packers games here for the substatial fan base.
The tv revenue will just keep flowing to the NFL. A slight dip here offset by an increase elsewhere.
by Lars in SLP on Jan 19, 2012 8:33 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
Yeah, wishful thinking above
No team is coming back here if the Vikes leave, not even from Buffalo. Also, TCF not gonna happen. They’ve already said that would require millions just to make TCF fit NFL’s regulations to what a stadium would have to be and that puts a lot of unnecessary work on the Gophers who are just chillin’ on their own probably hoping no one bothers them.
White Horn Gold Pants
Actually, I'm pretty sure the Gophers would welcome the money.
You’re talking improvements that they likely would have made themselves if there had been money in the original budget. Heating coils, while not required for them given the NCAA season, would be a nice amenity. And while the other improvements weren’t spelled out I would be surprised if they were anything the Gophers would find onerous.
dome is home
The dome is the VIKINGS home for as long as they want it. Once a deal is done they work out a lease.
That's certainly what seems most likely right now.
Life being what it is, one dreams of revenge.
- Paul Gauguin
http://www.dailynorseman.com/
Best for MINN
The AH site is best for MINN recalims land that will never be used otherwise. Best for the Vikings they get more money. But the Minneapolis politians are so self focused they will not allow it and would rather have the Vikings leave the state than be in the state and leave the city. -— SAD
Well, to be fair to the Minneapolis mayor and city council...
It isn’t their job to promote businesses leaving Minneapolis.
Life being what it is, one dreams of revenge.
- Paul Gauguin
http://www.dailynorseman.com/
It's not their job to sabotage the rest of the state's economy either.
by Shawn Gillogly on Jan 19, 2012 6:59 PM CST up reply actions
True.
But if a stadium is built in Arden Hills it could mean a loss of jobs in Minneapolis. Does that mean that Ramsey County officials are trying to sabotage Minneapolis?
Life being what it is, one dreams of revenge.
- Paul Gauguin
http://www.dailynorseman.com/
Nope.
Ramsey County put together the 1st coherent plan. Minneapolis said, “We don’t care” and let the rest of the state into the process, not thinking anyone else COULD do that.
You can’t sabotage an inert process.
by Shawn Gillogly on Jan 19, 2012 7:37 PM CST up reply actions
You could also argue that in Minneapolis...
…inertia is the process. In any case, arguing for you own area is never sabotage, especially when AH wasn’t going to get passed anyway because the requirement for a referendum wasn’t going to be waived.
And, although the Arden Hills plan was coherent...
That doesn’t mean it is politically feasible.
Life being what it is, one dreams of revenge.
- Paul Gauguin
http://www.dailynorseman.com/
Let's not overstate things.
The Vikings leaving will be a blow. It will also not sabotage the state’s economy.
You have the wrong culprit
The main obstacle to AH is the no tax increase crowd.
I don't think there's the time for a 'really long process.'
I’m finding myself increasingly in agreement with Ted on this. The Vikes aren’t going to put the ultimatum down (yet) because that very well could poison the water. Plus, it’s an empty threat until Feb 1st. Everyone knows that’s the deadline. Saying it’s the deadline only makes them look like they want to move. I don’t think Wilf does. He’d rather stay. He probably would have to sell if the Vikes move, and he likes being an owner, even if it means dealing with the idiots in St. Paul.
So they can play the tight-lipped game. But on Feb 2nd, if there isn’t a single deal that the Vikings can sign off on, then I think they’ll say, “Have a nice day.” The logistics of moving an NFL franchise demand a decision by March, at the latest. Sure, the MSC can try the 1yr lawsuit route. But that won’t solve anything. In fact, the Vikes could just say, “Sure, we’ll play a good-bye season. But we’re still selling and moving.” And that’s if they’re nice and settle. Somehow, I can’t see any sane court finding that a tenant is forced to remain at an unsafe facility because its idiot landlords failed to adequately prepare the site. Especially when they’ve had a full year’s notice.
Bottom line, the legislature has way to break the MMafia deadlock, and Dayton doesn’t have the willpower to provide a path to do so. I said it was 50/50 stay/move at the beginning of the season. I’d say it’s 75/25 in favor of moving now.
I have no way to prove you wrong...
…but my opinion is just different. I don’t think the NFL wants the bad PR of a team moving without levying the threat first. I also don’t see how LA is ready for a new team yet. They don’t have a stadium built and there is no guaranteed home for a team to play while they wait for the new stadium b/c USC now controls the Colosseum and isn’t inclined to play nice right now b/c promises by the local stadium authority were broken.
Linden Ave. Is best site
I’ve felt for several weeks this is the most viable site. If you drive the area you can see how open it is and it’s centrally located, connected to transit, etc. I liked AH site best for Vikes, but the lack of viable financing meant it was going to be DOA and since it’s going to be a multi-use facility, the location is somewhat lacking. Rybak is a clown and his proposal was purely to appease the Libs and anti-stadium crowd.
On another note, have you ever noticed how every pic of Dayton in the STRIB makes him look weird and creepy? I’m not a big fan, but man, give the guy a break!
by Torstein on Jan 19, 2012 6:23 PM CST via mobile reply actions
I don't see how a site
that depends on money they’re not going to get is more viable than AH.
The Minneapolis Mafia is kidding themselves. Bottom line, they’d rather lose the team than let them leave the city. And they will.
by Shawn Gillogly on Jan 19, 2012 6:24 PM CST up reply actions
Remember, the Mpls city charter prohibits them from spending over $10mil for a stadium without a referendum.
So the legislators run into a problem there too. They would have to deny the Mpls voters a referendum.
by Lars in SLP on Jan 19, 2012 6:41 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
Curious to see
If it comes down to that if they’ll shut it down like they did Ramsey County
by Amrius on Jan 19, 2012 7:41 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
That does not change the fact that anything over $10 mil
has to go to a vote of Minneapolis citizens. It does not depend on whether it is a new tax or a tax shift. And because that condition is in the city charter, I don’t think the legislature can over-ride it. They have taxing authority, but they do not have authority over a city charter.
So it’s either a city referendum or the local partner has to be Hennepin County. Hennepin County has already said they are not going to a part of this. Is there a path to passage any more in Minneapolis than Arden Hills?
Your fantasy football expert since Jerry Rice's rookie year.
Here is a link with the applicable city charter language
http://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=23827217&postID=6468254500060468306
It seems I am wrong about the legislature having the authority to exempt the city charter. Although this blogger agrees with me that it is not right. But it is not illegal.
Your fantasy football expert since Jerry Rice's rookie year.
It's the same situation in Ramsey County
And was the same for the Twins.
It’s the local law that requires a referendum, but the legislature has the authority to waive it. The state government is sovereign, but the city is not.
And yes, GoAupher has my point below.
I think his point...
…was that “no new taxes” Republicans might be more inclined to waive the referendum requirement if the referendum being waived was for a new use of existing taxes rather than for new taxes. If indeed they cannot waive this then that is a moot point.
Also, the county hasn’t said they won’t ever be a part of things, just not at this time. The county’s preferred site also appears to be Farmer’s Market. Can’t find my link for that though.
I cant stand
When people talk about Arden Hills like it’s way out in the boonies. It’s not. Its right on 35e, I drive right past the TCAAP site everytime I visit my cousin in Coon Rapids.
by Amrius on Jan 19, 2012 7:51 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
Governor originally stated he wanted the best deal for Minnesota, not Minneapolis.
Maybe Zygi can be calm, patient and gracious by offering to continue to play in the dome, rent free, until the legislators get something acceptable worked out. Or hell freezes over, whichever comes first.
by Lars in SLP on Jan 19, 2012 6:37 PM CST via mobile reply actions
I would say Zygi has been calm and patient for years.
He doesn’t have to wait any longer, and he shouldn’t have to wait any longer. It’s that simple. He’s holding the ball. The deadline isn’t a new thing. If he wants to leave at 0000 Feb 2nd, he’s 100% in the right, and pointing that out ahead of time does no one any good.
by Shawn Gillogly on Jan 19, 2012 6:46 PM CST up reply actions
Wanting to leave (assuming he does)...
…and being able to leave are not the same thing. The team currently has nowhere in LA to play.
It's a political chess match
While Dayton’s demeanor and lack of eloquence may leave some with a sour taste in their mouth, what he actually said was spot on. None of the proposals is a slam dunk, so how could he come out and support any of them? He basically said, “If this issue or that issue can be resolved, then I can get behind X proposal.” And until he actually had official proposals to work with, he couldn’t really say anything definitive until now. The proposals were a starting point.
Lester Bagley said some very interesting things today. Rather than saying their “preffered site” was Arden Hills, which has been the Viking’s language for months, he has now changed it to “Ideal”. Look, everyone knows Ramsey County won’t vote to raise taxes by 3%, so Arden Hills is dead. But the Vikings need some sort of leverage in their negotiations with Minneapolis, so they’ll continue to hang onto the possibility of Arden Hills as long as they can. They are going to want Minneapolis to foot as much of the bill as possible, obviously. And the State Legislators would love to have both Minneapolis and Wilf fund as much as possible, so they’ll want to keep the hope of Arden Hills alive too.
But again, Dayton is spot on when he says Linden Ave needs to have a site feasibility study done. All of the work that has gone into Arden Hills still needs to go into Linden Ave AND the Metrodome site if they are to be seriously considered. The main stumbling block at this point though is not the site study, it’s the negotiation between the Vikings and the City of Minneapolis. As Bagley said, the bill is 90% written. They just need to iron out the funding details and submit a site study.
I don’t see these press conferences as doom and gloom at all. It’s a positive step in the right direction, and we’re all witnessing the political chess match between the three interested parties play itself out.
Ponder. Peterson. Percy. Purple Perfection.
by CCNorsemen on Jan 19, 2012 7:09 PM CST reply actions 4 recs
Well said.
I think there is a lot more bargaining going on than the public is currently privy to.
Life being what it is, one dreams of revenge.
- Paul Gauguin
http://www.dailynorseman.com/
I vote for no roof, hence this

☠★☪Creator of http:/vikescity.info/ and dedicated DN reader.
by UnBannedVikingholic on Jan 19, 2012 7:35 PM CST reply actions
The state Proposed a New Vikings Stadium Downtown.
☠★☪Creator of http:/vikescity.info/ and dedicated DN reader.
by UnBannedVikingholic on Jan 19, 2012 7:51 PM CST reply actions
Still time
The wonderful news out of Los Angeles is that Farmers Field is nowhere near entertaining the thought of having a team move until 2013, EIR not even completed, even with a budgeted 40 million dollars. Perhaps this is bad news, Los Angeles was never a threat but rather a crow bar to get the new stadium in Minnesota done.
Ah, but implied threats can be more effective than specific ones.
I think we’re due for another vague report of the Wilfs being seen talking to a Los Angeles real estate developer. We seem to have one of those every few months.
Life being what it is, one dreams of revenge.
- Paul Gauguin
http://www.dailynorseman.com/
Especially in MN.
Direct threats aren’t “Minnesota Nice.” The implied threat approach is much more appealing to our passive-aggressive nature.
LOL so true...
Life being what it is, one dreams of revenge.
- Paul Gauguin
http://www.dailynorseman.com/
what's that?!?
You say you know someone who knows someone who heard about a guy that has a brother-in-law that is pretty sure he actually saw someone that strongly resembles Zygi actually talking to a guy who is the spitting image of a personal assisstant to one of the LA stadium developers?!?
Holy cow, I heard exactly the same thing!!!! ;)
I think one of the guys is named Sid.
Is that how I can get an unfounded rumor started? I’m new at that sort of thing.
by Lars in SLP on Jan 20, 2012 2:35 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
Wish I did know how to start a rumor like that.
It would be interesting to see just how many news sources would mention it.
Life being what it is, one dreams of revenge.
- Paul Gauguin
http://www.dailynorseman.com/
Why, that's simple.
Just write up a dire, sensational headline, and write up the story you wish was true, and cite an unidentified person with first hand knowledge of the details.
Make sure to build a little street cred for your source. Say its a close personal friend.
I know for a fact that a lot of Minnesotans will take the bait— hook, line & sinner.
by Lars in SLP on Jan 21, 2012 1:51 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
Tempting, very tempting...
I’ll have to read a bunch of tabloid magazines so I can model their skill for intentionally misleading headlines, something that promises a much more sensational story than it delivers. If we combine that with an out-of-context picture, we just might have the start of something.
Life being what it is, one dreams of revenge.
- Paul Gauguin
http://www.dailynorseman.com/
RAMSEY COUNTY BREAKS GRIDLOCK, RESOLUTION TO FUND STADIUM PENDING!
Don’t just skip over this. Word is now out that Ramsey County has already obtained an independent legal opinion of their charter provisions as to whether a referendum is required for a county wide food and beverage tax.
http://blogs.twincities.com/cityhallscoop/2012/01/20/ramsey-county-no-fair-minneapolis-charter-is-tougher-on-stadium-funding-than-ours/
Turns out it can be done by a simple board resolution. Resolutions, as opposed to ordinances, cannot be forced to referendum according to the charter.
Meanwhile, the Minneapolis charter REQUIRES a referendum before the city can spend more than $10 million dollars toward a professional sports facility, regardless the source of the revenue.
So it seems that Minneapolis actually needs the legislature to overrule their charter while Ramsey County apparently does not. A letter was sent to the legislature in December outlining the whole deal. Which leaves me wondering why it took Ramsey County so long to let this out.
by Lars in SLP on Jan 22, 2012 11:49 AM CST via mobile reply actions 1 recs
My favorite line from the legal analysis of Ramsey County charter.
" The Ramsey County Charter contains no provision requiring a public referendum of any sort in order for the County Board to impose a food and beverage tax."
Let’s get this show on the road!
by Lars in SLP on Jan 22, 2012 11:56 AM CST via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
The letter was in the 148 page proposal sent to the governor
Although I did not read it closely.
Aha! I skimmed through the big plan to quickly!
I’m glad they got it in there.
If the legislature acts quick maybe they can put everything in place before the referendum petition is filed. But that’s probably not likely at this late date.
by Lars in SLP on Jan 23, 2012 4:22 PM CST via mobile up reply actions

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