Vikings Officially Hire Alan Williams As Defensive Coordinator
by Christopher Gates on Jan 19, 2012 1:16 PM CST
in Minnesota Vikings 2012 Off-Season
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PrintThe Minnesota Vikings made it official today, hiring Indianapolis Colts' defensive backs coach Alan Williams as their new defensive coordinator, replacing Fred Pagac. Pagac will go back to his old job as the team's linebackers coach, while Mike Singletary will continue to stay on in some sort of special assistant capacity. I have no idea what the heck Singletary is actually going to be doing, but hey. . .he's not really part of the coaching staff any more, as far as I can tell.
Ted went over some of Williams' credentials yesterday, and Landonio has a nice breakdown of Williams' coaching career in the FanPosts.
The team also brought in Brendan Daly to be the team's defensive line coach, replacing Karl Dunbar. Daly served as an assistant in Minnesota from 2006 to 2008, and has spent the last three seasons as the defensive line coach of the St. Louis Rams. Also, Joe Woods is still somehow employed by this team as the defensive backs coach.
My instinct tells me that I should be killing this hire right now. At first blush, it appears that Williams was hired because he a) is a disciple of the Tampa-2 style of defense and b) worked with Leslie Frazier in the past, both in Tampa Bay and in Indianapolis. But I'm not going to do that. Why?
As it pertains to his current (and potential future) career as a head coach in the National Football League, Leslie Frazier's ass is on the line in 2012, and he strikes me as a guy that's smart enough to know that his ass is on the line. If he realizes this, and this is the coaching staff that he wants to roll into the 2012 NFL season with, then that's his call. Either this staff will move this rebuilding project forward and get this team moving in the right direction. . .or they'll all be looking for jobs starting the day after the 2012 season ends.
I'm not even going to kill the adherence to the Tampa-2 because, quite frankly, at this point I don't think it would make any difference what defensive scheme this team was running. They simply don't have the talent in the back part of the defense, whether it's because of injury or whatever the cause may be, to be an effective pass defense, even with a defensive line that led the NFL in sacks. It's not a "Tampa-2 problem" or a problem that a shift to a 3-4 defense is immediately going to solve.
Basically, we finally have a new defensive coordinator, and a full staff of coaches to head down to Mobile for the Senior Bowl next week. Hey, that's more than what we could say 24 hours ago, isn't it?
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on to Mobile, Alabama!
Skol Vikings!
"At this point, what we got to lose, right? So we might as well throw caution to the wind and hit people in the face."
--Vikings DE Jared Allen
Agreed
I’m glad we finally know who the coaches will be, I was getting a little worried that they would roll into the senior bowl missing a few coaches
"You can write articles and do whatever you want, you can break down every player. Good, bad or ugly. But we just aren't good enough as a team, as a group. Offensively, defensively and special teams, from the No. 1 on the roster to the last man on the roster. We just aren't good enough. It's as simple as that." - Chad Greenway
Yea
I’m glad the staff is finally put together. When is the game BTW?
☠★☪Creator of http:/vikescity.info/ and dedicated DN reader.
by UnBannedVikingholic on Jan 19, 2012 1:59 PM CST up reply actions
Next weekend 1/28 or 1/29
Not sure if saturday or sunday.
"At this point, what we got to lose, right? So we might as well throw caution to the wind and hit people in the face."
--Vikings DE Jared Allen
I will reserve my judgement until next season
so far, it’s seemed that Frazier is in way over his head…guess we will find out, won’t we?
I dread that this is my opinion thus far
He’s a guy you love to love and you find yourself pulling for him to do well, but what we’ve seen on the field makes it difficult to put much faith in him. I still feel like it’s a jump up from Chilly, but that’s not saying much.
White Horn Gold Pants
Let's reserve judgement on Frazier
He inherited an awful personnel situation from Childress. Frazier and company tried several different things to patch up a bad team, but none of them worked. Now, he’s got his first big chance to recover, with the draft and free agency. Let’s see how Spielman and Frazier perform as rebuilders. They’ve got one full season to make serious progress. By the time training camp starts, they should have gotten rid of at least a dozen players from last year, and there should be 25 new guys in camp.
We will begin to see how they’re doing right away as they coach for the Senior Bowl. Will they spot some late round sleepers?
You're exactly right when you say the scheme wouldn't have made a difference this past year.
Our secondary is horrendous. However, even with the right personnel, I’m not a fan of the Tampa-2.
Regardless, it was obvious that this is the scheme we’re sticking with, and for that, it’s a perfectly good hire. I like Pagac as a linebackers coach. I don’t understand the Dunbar firing, but am fine with bringing back Daly.
This will indeed be a make or break year for Frazier and co., and I hope he proves me wrong.
"I wanted to do it because it's fun, it's fun to do bad things and drive into a car."
by PurplePeopleEaters on Jan 19, 2012 2:11 PM CST reply actions
Isn't Tampa 2 meant to be a team responsibility coverage
With the linebackers dropping, corners watching the sidelines and the safeties protecting the big play? This should be the best scheme for us atm because of our awful corners who cannot play man to man. I think the problem with Pagac was he was a cover-one believer which relies more on man to man and especially after Winfield and Cook were lost we had no chance of covering man to man. If we draft/sign minimum a Cb and a safety with proper coaching in the offseason we should be able to run Cover 2 effectively, we have the line for it.
A big problem is we don't have any LBers that can cover.
Greenway is the closest, but he’s really just a sideline-to-sideline tackler.
which is why we should target LB's in the draft...
…Lavonte David comes to mind in the 2nd rd… maybe not with the 35th pick, but if we’re able to auction the #3 overall pick and nab an extra 2nd rdr, David would be a great pickup.
then we just need to figure out that whole MLB situation. b/c, ya know, a middle linebacker who can actually be effective in coverage is kind of important in the Tampa-2, and EJ just isn’t cutting it anymore, unfortunately.
"Th_r_'s n_ h_p_ f_r _ssh_l_ f_ckw_ts."
Can I buy a vowel...?? +1, Kluwe.
I agree we def need a MLB
But id like to see us draft CB, Safety, WR and OL over MLB. Maybe look for one in FA, or resign EJ……
EJ's a great story
but at his best he was a major liability in coverage. And his best days are far, far behind him.
In today’s NFL you need LBers that can play the pass. The last few years we’ve beenrunning a great LBer corps – for 1985.
I would rather give Brinkley another chance, instead of giving EJ an extension.
EJ was the man for us, but his skills have greatly diminished. I though Brinkley did a good job filling in for EJ during the 09’ season, I wouldn’t mind seeing him again.
Brinkley is EJ Part 2.
Another guy who only moves forward. Another run stopping, 2 down LBer.
I’m so sick of building a team that first and foremost ‘runs the ball and stops the run’ in a league that every year becomes more and more of a passing league. We don’t have 1 player in our back 7 who is even average against the pass (Winfield and Ced once were, but injuries and age have taken that toll).
FWIW, Brinkley was training with secondary coaches, or something like that, last off-season...
…to better his coverage skills. maybe he’ll do the same this off-season and be able to take that next step.
"Th_r_'s n_ h_p_ f_r _ssh_l_ f_ckw_ts."
Can I buy a vowel...?? +1, Kluwe.
I'm not sold on Brinkley, I'm just not interested in EJ.
I’m not sure who is available amongst FA-LB’s, but Brinkley has been studying under Fraizer for a few years now and could be a band-aid if needed.
The Dline hasn’t quite replaced P. Williams yet, so having a LB that can contain the run isn’t exactly a bad idea.
I think his skills are still there
its his physical capability that has declined.
Will the Real Thor Please Stand Up ... ?
by the Real Thor on Jan 19, 2012 8:51 PM CST up reply actions
It's a whole lot of "Meh"
I’m not excited about any of the hires, but we have nowhere to go but up. When you build a coaching staff, you want guys that believe in the same principles you do, and that buy into your approach. If all the coaches are on the same page, it makes it easier to communicate what you want to do as a team, to the players.
I was hoping for a big name splash in the coaching hires, but both of these guys have potential. They’ve worked with Frazier before, so presumably they’ll all be on the same page. I can support it because I’m a fan, but I’ll reserve final judgement until I see the results.
The bottom line is: we need better players. The rest should fix itself.
Ponder. Peterson. Percy. Purple Perfection.
Well I sure thought...
… Frazier was going to pick his buddy Singletary. I guess this is good news that at least he apparently conducted a real search.
by HammeroftheGods on Jan 19, 2012 2:58 PM CST reply actions
We can only go UP from here
The Wins are going to matter. Getting to 3 in a hurry can do wonders for the rest of the season. Tripling that to a 9-7 season would be sweet. Regardless of what record is established, real progress we can build on matters. We hit the floor this year.
We can only go UP from here.
Vikings in 2012 will be a Wonder-ful year. Seriously!!
I also love the game of golf. My favorite golf GPS app is OptimalClub.
It is hands down the BEST golf aid you'll ever have for club distances
under current elevation and weather conditions. Stop guessing & score low!
by VikesFanSince1967 on Jan 19, 2012 3:24 PM CST reply actions
Another mistake by Frazier
Trust me, I hope this guy works out, I love my Vikings. BUT how was Indy this year?
I’m worried that Frazier isn’t secure enough to hire a strong coach that he may feel threatened by.
A head coach stepping down or a hot coach on a WINNING team would seem like a better choice.
i respectfully disagree with your post scott, simply because its unfair to judge williams on only this season. he has a 10 year body of work as the coach of the DBs in indy and Landonio did a great job reviewing his body of work there. if you haven’t read the article yet, its linked at the top of the story, and like i said is a very good piece of work.
From what i understand, the Colts got decimated by injuries in the secondary this year, as bad if not worse then ours…but years prior, the secondary had some pretty incredible performances, i can’t remember them off the top of my head but Landonio has them in his story.
My point is, lets at least give the man a chance before we deem him a mistake. Maybe your right, and Williams just isn’t ready to be a DC. but at this point, with this team 3-13, we might as well (as fans) embrace it and see how things go this offseason and into the regular season. it (hopefully) can’t get any worse lol
by RedHat16 on Jan 19, 2012 4:53 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Saints just hired Spagnuolo because their head coach has a backbone
I hope I’m wrong and he turns out to be great. But there is no reason to be optimistic with the choice for DC of the MInnesota Vikings
by scottfromcmh on Jan 19, 2012 5:50 PM CST up reply actions
Spagnuolo is a good hire for them
but lets be realistic. He was never coming here. He showed no interest in interviewing here. none o fthe major names would come here because there is a huge question mark as to weather Frazier will be the HC after next season (if we do badly again). The Big guys will go to a place where they now that they will have some stability and a better chance to move up again. of the realistic options available to the Vikes, Williams seems to be the very best possible choice.
Will the Real Thor Please Stand Up ... ?
by the Real Thor on Jan 19, 2012 9:00 PM CST up reply actions
agreed...
also the other problem is the stadium issue. Technically we don’t have a home right now
by midnightwonder on Jan 19, 2012 10:52 PM CST up reply actions
Also...
… no coach with aspersions to becoming a head coach – and who had better options – would come to Minnesota. They know that Frasier only has a contract to the end of this season, and that with the exception of maybe 4 or 5 players, the defense needs either an overhaul or major tweaking. Some may say that by coming to Minnesota, the coach will have his foot in the door to replace Frasier, but in honesty, they would be better served moving to a potential playoff contender – who will have much better players already in place – and then interviewing for the head coach position next off season. No matter how good the coach is, if the Vikings defense sucks this season – or improve to the next stage of a 3 year rebuilding plan – then the team would almost certainly look outside the organisation having tested those waters previously with Frasier.
by blowfishes on Jan 20, 2012 3:36 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
Agree
that Leslie seems to be assembling a staff of coaches that have little chance of knocking him off his perch. Instead he should be hiring studs that ensure the team performs well enough that his job isn’t in jeapardy. He’s coaching scared.
One thing Denny Green did well (crap, I think I just pulled something!) was to hire great coordinators and assistants, then stay the hell out of the way and let them do their jobs. The best way for a leader to look brilliant is to have brilliant underlings. If only Denny could manage a game……
I really don't mean to imply that they would threaten him, but that he FEELS threatened
Because he is weak leader that surrounds himself with yes men.
by scottfromcmh on Jan 19, 2012 6:04 PM CST up reply actions
I would agree with that in the early Green era
At the end his ego was too big to allow for anything but yes-men.
by Shawn Gillogly on Jan 19, 2012 6:09 PM CST up reply actions
Words of wisdom/encouragement from an AZ Cards fan
Vikings fans, relax. This hiring reminds me a lot of the Arizona Cardinals hiring Pittsburgh defensive backs coach Ray Horton to be their DC last year. Cardinals fans ripped the choice, saying that Horton was a lightweight, the secondary was the weak link of the Steelers defense, and he was hired just because Whisenhunt was buddies with him in Pittsburgh. The Cards defense got off to a slow start under Horton because of the lockout; Horton had no time to work with his players. But around midseason, the defense started to gel. The Cardinals went 7-2 in their final nine games and the defense was the main reason why. Horton did such a good job that the Rams interviewed him for their HC position, and the same Cardinals fans that were slamming the Horton hire were screaming that the Rams had not better steal away their best DC in decades.
Now, I’m not saying that WIlliams will have the same success in Minnesota that Horton did in Arizona. But see a huge amount of similarity in these hirings. I realize it’s tempting to go completely negative after a 3-13 season, but how about seeing what this guy can do first before immediately writing him off as a failure?
"At this point, what we got to lose, right? So we might as well throw caution to the wind and hit people in the face."
--Vikings DE Jared Allen
by NMVike on Jan 19, 2012 4:54 PM CST reply actions 2 recs
and its not like we hired an OLine Coach
to be our DC Philly.
Will the Real Thor Please Stand Up ... ?
by the Real Thor on Jan 19, 2012 9:04 PM CST up reply actions
Who did Arizona play down that stretch run of 9 games?
Leaving that part out makes the argument sound much better and is very convenient.
They played STL, PHI, SF, STL, DAL, SF, CLE, CIN, & SEA. Hardly a murderer’s row.
I think the comparison is useless when you are talking about having to face GB & DET twice a year. Even Chicago with Cutler is pretty decent.
I do not know if Williams will do well and I congratulate him on this opportunity. But the hiring stinks of cronyism. Just like the Singletary hire. But I understand that you want people who think like you to be working with you.
All I know for sure is that the secondary is suppose to be the one area that is Leslie Fraizer’s strength. And since 2007 it really has not gotten much better at all. Yeah there have been injuries but the depth he has allowed to stay on this team is very very poor and it showed.
I have tried to be patient with Frazier but if the one area that he is suppose to be very good at does not get better then I have to say it is time to let him go. I know this season will be the final test in that area.
They played STL, PHI, SF, STL, DAL, SF, CLE, CIN, & SEA. Hardly a murderer’s row.
Sorry dude, but you’ve lost it. You do realize that SF is playing for the NFC championship and that CIN is a playoff team, don’t you? You do realize that SF was 10-2 when they were beat by the cardinals, don’t you? You do realize that DAL was 7-4 and in the race for a Div title when ARZ beat them, don’t you? You do realize that ARZ got beat destroyed by the lowly 0-4 vikings earlier in the season, don’t you? I’d call that quite a turnaround.
I do not know if Williams will do well and I congratulate him on this opportunity. But the hiring stinks of cronyism.
I don’t know about what you would do, but for me as a head coach, my number one priorty is the health, safety and development of my players. The one thing I would do to insure that I meet that priority is to hire people that I KNOW and TRUST. Most coaches operate this way. What was the first thing Jeff Fisher did in St. Louis? He went after Greg Williams, an old coaching buddy. Believe it or not, this is how the coaching network works.
"At this point, what we got to lose, right? So we might as well throw caution to the wind and hit people in the face."
--Vikings DE Jared Allen
by NMVike on Jan 20, 2012 11:47 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Come on
I wrote that post on a Yahoo message board and I didn’t “conveniently” leave out the schedule. I was trying to keep it concise. This is today’s NFL, where any team can beat any other on any given Sunday and you can never take any win for granted. Bringing up schedule is a poor argument. Besides, SF is currently 14-3 (Arizona pinned them with their last loss), CIN was a playoff team, and DAL, PHI, and SEA all pretty much gave as good as they got. 7-2 is 7-2. The Cards were 1-6 against similar competition or worse (they got blown out by the Vikings) before the defense came together under Horton. That is a huge turnaround no matter what the schedule.
My point was that an unheralded defensive backs coach CAN conceivably come in and do the job just as well as a “big name.” Since when have the Cardinals ever been known for having a strong defense? Since maybe never. Even under “defensive guru” Buddy Ryan in the 90’s they had a below average defense. The Cards were a top-5 defense in the second half of this season. Look it up. That is unheard of for the Cardinals. Horton not only had to turn around a much-maligned unit, he had the entire culture of the franchise working against him. As for “stinking of cronyism,” that is exactly what Cards fans were saying about Horton when his old buddy Whisenhunt brought him in.
Again, I’m not saying Williams will experience similar success in Minnesota. I’m saying you can’t automatically write him off as a failure just because he’s not a “big name” or because you think he’s a “crony.” This on top of the obvious — that he hasn’t even started the job yet.
by Zapf on Jan 20, 2012 12:37 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Well stated (again)
Hope your cool with me putting up your comment over here. But it needed to be shared.
"At this point, what we got to lose, right? So we might as well throw caution to the wind and hit people in the face."
--Vikings DE Jared Allen
The coach of the only bright spot on the defensive side of the ball
Was the only defensive coach to get canned. Curious.
I hope Williams tuns out to be the best DC EVER. But not holding my breath. A lot of coaches can put up good stats with good talent on the field. It takes a “real” coach to put up good stats when the talent pool is shallow. Williams didn’t do too well when his talent left the field in Indy last season.
Even if the Vikes pick up a FA or two or a great draft pick, they’re still going to be a little thin in talent next year. Not sure that Williams and a defensive squad that’s in a bit of a rebuilding mode is a good combo.
There's no way to judge how a position coach
will succeed as he moves up to being a coordinator . . . until he actually get’s his chance.
Mike Martz ’s only NFL experience was as a QB coach or as a WR coach until he was named offensive coordinator of the St. Louis Rams in 1999 by HC Dick Vermeil.
1999 was Martz’s FIRST YEAR as an NFL OC.
All the Rams did in 1999 was win the SB as Martz’s ‘Greatest Show on Turf’ scored 526 points, the 4th highest in NFL history.
Of Martz, Vermeil said this:
“I can’t think, in my history of coaching, of any assistant who came into an NFL franchise and made the immediate impact that Mike Martz did.”
Mike Martz was the QB coach for the Washington Redskins in the two seasons before 1999. The Redskins finished 15ht & 17th in those two seasons in points scored.
Again, you can’t judge a new coordinator until he actually starts doing his new job.
How a guys did as a position coach tells us very little as to how he’ll perform as a coordinator.
HIRE Means one thing
Friend Singletary was looked at and found wanting. Enter another friend. Hope it works.
found so wanting he was promoted?
Egads.
Sorry, but IMHO, Frazier has had a season and a half to prove he can be an NFL coach. The defense regressed while he was coordinator, and he did nothing to improve it when he took the reins back at the end of the season. This continued hiring of ‘personal friends’ strikes me very much like the end of the Green era, when his ego was too big to go through the door. I don’t think Les has the ego problems, but insecurity could do the same thing.
Not to mention I found it telling when I heard Ditka earlier in the season and he was asked about the players on his defense who became coaches. The one person he was surprised (and not positively) about was Frazier.
If there were personnel problems in the defense (and that’s where most of the issues were), he isn’t off the hook for that in the Klink era either, since he was the defensive coordinator and there’s no record of him ever protesting those decisions.
So no, I’m not heartened by this, and I’m not convinced he knows what he’s doing at this point.
by Shawn Gillogly on Jan 19, 2012 6:02 PM CST up reply actions
Reality check
I wouldn’t put too much stock in Ditka’s opinion . Yes he won a SB but with that talent he shouldve made more than 1 appearance. I’ve always felt like it was almost a crime they couldn’t fix the QB pos. Better than they did and Ditka was an idiot and complete bust at NO. Remember the Ricky Williams trade?
I give Frazier and his crew a pass for 1 more year to show us some big improvements. So I’m going to withhold judgement until I can see how they perform on the field.
by Torstein on Jan 19, 2012 6:12 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
A pass?
You never get a pass in the NFL.
Not for 1 game, and definitely not for 1 season. Frazier was intimately involved with the degeneration of the defense. You can’t give him a ‘pass’ for a catastrophe on HIS side of the ball. Now you can say you give him a year to fix it. But that’s leniency. He doesn’t ‘merit’ it. He did nothing to merit being promoted to HC in the 1st place. He was the interim because he was the chief of the more stable unit at the time.
by Shawn Gillogly on Jan 19, 2012 6:30 PM CST up reply actions
Shawn, I realize you know NOTHING about the NFL
here goes:
Two time SB winning HC Jimmy Johnson started out 1-15!
Bill Parcells? 3-12-1!
Bill Walsh? 2-14!
Chuck Noll? 1-13!
Dude, that’s ELEVEN SB victories by HC’s who started out a combined SEVEN and FIFTY-FOUR and ONE!
You, my fiend, make ZEROOOOOOOOO sense!
All those teams had worse places to start from than the Vikes did.
Heck, Noll had DECADES of refuse to dig out from. Walsh was just as far in the hole.
And the NFL wasn’t a quick turnaround league then. It is now. The Vikes were 1 season removed from 13-3 and the Championship Game. Show me which one of those coaches had footing that good to work from.
None of those teams had balanced schedules, weighted for bad records. But I guess you assumed I didn’t know how the NFL writes a schedule did you.
Now if you want to say Frazier will turn it around. Feel free. That’s an OPINION. IMHO, an overly hopeful one. And this wasn’t Frazier’s 1st season with the team, whereas of those coaches, only Parcells came from within the organization.
by Shawn Gillogly on Jan 19, 2012 6:52 PM CST up reply actions
It was a really poor off season with the lockout and all
We always knew he was going to get another season because of it. But what a crappy 1st season
by scottfromcmh on Jan 19, 2012 6:40 PM CST up reply actions
See Harbaugh, 49ers
Rookie coach, no NFL experience. NFC title game. With a team that was just as bad last season.
I’m not saying the Vikes should’ve went to the title game. I am saying Frazier doesn’t get a free ride for that. He was already in the league, in the organization, and ought to have KNOWN what was up. Instead, it was apparent all season he was out of his depth. Maybe he gets up to speed. But using the lockout as an excuse doesn’t cut it.
by Shawn Gillogly on Jan 19, 2012 6:54 PM CST up reply actions
That team did have a lot of talent when Harbaugh took over
just no one new how to harness the O side of it. its not like he created it out of no where, just fixed the Offensive deficiencies. does that make him a good HC? Absolutely. The Vikes where on a clear decline though when Frazier took over. we are missing talent at a lot of key positions, and then we took multiple injuries to those same positions. Towards the end of the season we were starting 4th string Dbacks. On offense, our best WR is a Slot guy, and our Number 2 is ideally suited to be a 3rd WR, and he got hurt 1/2 way through the season. After that we have a bunch of #5 type WR, or guys that are raw and need more time to develop. despite all the injury problems and the losing, this team kept fighting, kept trying hard and playing to the final whistle. that is also the mark of good coaching. I am willing to give Frazier 1 more year to turn it around, but if the team quits on him next season, then he should go.
Will the Real Thor Please Stand Up ... ?
by the Real Thor on Jan 19, 2012 9:16 PM CST up reply actions
Ditka was an idiot and complete bust at NO. Remember the Ricky Williams trade?
Actually, I thought Dita was fired prematurely. Ricky Williams was injured his first year and Ditka was never able to use him. Dita was fired the following year, and the team started to play really well. Dita was given credit for building the lines and creating some of the success.
Nonsense Shawn
Please BACK up your comment
(The one person he was surprised (and not positively) about was Frazier)with some sourcing.
He’s what Ditka said when Frazier was set to be the HC of Trinity College, according to school president Ken Meyer:
Ditka said that
“not only was Leslie a smart football man, but that I’d never have to worry about him getting drunk or doing anything stupid,”
http://www.startribune.com/sports/vikings/126459293.html?page=2&c=y
Please Shawn, provide some PROOF to back-up your assertion that Ditka was NOT positively surprised about Frazier’s promotion to HC.
He said it on live TV during a pre-game when the VIkes and another of his former players
were going to be coaching against each other. this season.
Being someone who doesn’t get in trouble doesn’t make you a good coach. It just makes you a good player.
The two are not synonymous.
by Shawn Gillogly on Jan 19, 2012 6:27 PM CST up reply actions
And another of his former players?
Really?
You can’t even REMEMBER the name of the ‘former player’ he coached against?
You’re funny. Not to bright, but funny nonetheless.
Again, total nonsense.
Nothing like personal attacks
to make yourself feel ‘bright’?
The ‘nonsense’ is assuming Frazier was a good hire. He wasn’t. He was a convenient hire.
by Shawn Gillogly on Jan 19, 2012 6:35 PM CST up reply actions
I replied
You seem to have assumed I knew nothing about those coaches. Unfortunately, I did.
Whereas you seem to use a very loose definition of terms, and can’t apologize for personal attacks on a forum. I realize it’s just easier to shout about how great you are than to act like an adult. But frankly, I’m unimpressed.
by Shawn Gillogly on Jan 19, 2012 6:56 PM CST up reply actions
Not personal attacks. my friend
Just giving you FACTS to show that you know NOTHING of which you speak.
Bill Parcells? Almost FIRED after his 1st season as HC of the NY Giants (Look it up, my friend).
Jimmy Johnson? He replaced Tom Landry and lost 15 of his first 16 games. Landry NEVER lost 15 games in one NFL season.
Guys like Walsh & Noll? Think their fan base was HAPPY after their inaugural seasons? Umm, probably not.
I just named you FOUR NFL HC’s who won almost 25% of ALL Super Bowls!
ALL of those HC"s started out with WORSE records than did Leslie Frazier in his 1st full season.
You, my friend, know NOTHING about the NFL. Absolutely NOTHING!!!!!
And I pointed out why all those circumstances were different.
You ‘replied’ by restating the same thing over again. Scheduling is different not. The draft doesn’t work as it did then. The game isn’t geared to keep teams in the cellar for decades like it was then. Tell me which part of THAT I’m wrong about. When did the balanced schedule start? When did teams start getting ‘rewarded’ for bad records with easier schedules? Not under ‘any’ of those coaches you mentioned.
And yes, it was a personal attack. You could have the courtesy to apologize. But that would mean eating crow.
You watched every Super Bowl ‘live.’ Really? You’re part of the 4 Super Bowl member club that was on the Visa commercial? One of whom died last year, another of whom failed to go to last year’s game.
Live doesn’t mean ‘on TV.’ And I’ve watched every Sub-par Bowl since X. And I didn’t know a SPORTS BLOG comment required Turabian style citation, until you decided to resort to that.
by Shawn Gillogly on Jan 19, 2012 7:45 PM CST up reply actions
I realize it’s just easier to shout about how great you are than to act like an adult.
Umm, I am an adult. Who’s watched every Super Bowl LIVE.
Have you?
And who also likes to call out ‘people’ like you who know NOTHING about the NFL and yet rant and rave and write and blog like they do!
Unfortunately (for you) I am more than able & willing to call you out on your ‘Stream on Complete Nonsense’!
Hey Shawn!
Ever hear of Jim Caldwell? Recently fired as HC of the Colts?
His 1st season he was 14-2. Some considered him to be a candidate for Coach of the Year that season.
His 2nd season he was 10-6.
Jim Caldwell started out 24-8, which I’m willing guess may be the greatest first two seasons as a HC in NFL history.
His 3rd season? Ummm, 2-14.
Of course, Caldwell HAD Peyton Manning as his QB when he went 24-8.
And he DIDN’T have Manning under center when he went 2-14 and was summarily FIRED.
Think Caldwell’s ‘success’ in the NFL had much, much MORE to do with having one of the greatest QB’s in NFL history on his team . . . as opposed to his coaching ‘genius’?
And his corresponding failure and firing was because he then DIDN"T have that same HOF QB under center?
I sure do.
What say you?
I say I don't disagree.
But what does that prove?. The NFL is a QB-driven league. We already knew that. We also already knew the Colts, more than any other team, are dependent on the WAY Manning quarterbacks. So plugging even another elite qb into their system would be pointless. Not that Brady or Brees aren’t Manning’s equal, but neither quarterbacks the way Manning does, and neither of them have the offense molded to them like Manning does.
Witness Matt Cassel turning in a Pro Bowl season in NE when Brady went down, and Brees running an offense that’s similar to one Eli Manning ran in NY.
I don’t think anyone thought Caldwell was a genius. He was a good caretaker of the franchise, given where it was. Now that they’re blowing it up, there’s no reason to keep him.
by Shawn Gillogly on Jan 19, 2012 7:49 PM CST up reply actions
I don’t think anyone thought Caldwell was a genius
Umm, apparently you don’t follow to well.
I never said that people claimed Caldwell was a genius . . . did I?
No, I simply said that when his 14-2 team started out at 13-0 in 2009 some stated he should be Coach of the Year.
Ya think Leslie Frazier would’ve had a MUCH better record last season if he had Peyton Manning as his QB, instead of Donovan McNabb or Christian Ponder?
I sure do!!!!
See how that works, my friend.
Class dismissed.
You’ve been completely schooled tonight my friend!
And this answers whether Les Frazier has done a good job how?
The only ‘lesson’ you taught was how to answer a question with a non-pertinent question. Walsh won with a young qb. Noll won with a revolving door at QB for several years. Parcells won with an oft-injured qb and a journeyman backup.
None of that answers why Frazier should be judged leniently when Harbaugh is in the NFC Championship game with a QB who was, until this year, a bust.
Why was Frazier sold on a QB who got benched last season? Why was Frazier unwilling to commit, with a rebuilding franchise, to his new QB? When it worked much better for Carolina and the Bengals to play the rookie?
Now THAT is the pertinent question. Frazier made bad choices. Should he not be held responsible for those choices? It’s the NFL, he screwed up, and he should be answering why he will do better next year. And barring a very satisfactory answer, he should be out of work.
Hiring close, personal friends…again, sounds too much like he’s being excused for failure. And you are what your record says. Last season was a failure. Caldwell was 2 years removed from a Super Bowl appearance. Now he’s out of work. That’s accountability. Why is Frazier not accountable? Nothing you said answers the question. You answered your own strawman. Hurrah for you.
by Shawn Gillogly on Jan 19, 2012 8:32 PM CST up reply actions
Dude
you KILL me.
You really do.
Again, let’s examine:
Jimmy Johnson: 1-15 his 1st season with eventual HOF’er Troy Aikman on his team.
Bill Walsh: 2-14 with eventual HOF’er Joe Montana on the team his 1st season.
Bill Parcells: 3-12-1 with Phil Simms on the team. Simms, while not a HOF’er, was a great QB who holds the SB completion record (88%) in SB history.
Noll: Started out 1-13. Drafted eventual HOF’er Terry Bradshaw in his 2nd season and went 5-9.
Leslie Frazier? Umm, started as an interim in in 2010 and his first full season was in 2011. His QB’s?
A broken down Brett Favre. Joe Webb. Tavaris Jackson. An over-the-hill Donovan McNabb. Christian Ponder.
Get it?
You amuse me.
BTW: you ORIGINAL premise was this:
Sorry, but IMHO, Frazier has had a season and a half to prove he can be an NFL coach.
Right?
As I’ve CLEARLY showed you, compare Frazier, in 1 1/2 seasons with the 4 HC’s I mentioned (Noll, JJ, Walsh, Parcells).
There ain’t a PERSON on the planet, who, after 1 1/2 seasons, ticketed any of those 4 HC’s for greatness. Quite the contrary, most thought they SUCKED after a year and a half.
And, of course, they all won multiple SB’s.
Again, get it? Probably not..
Have a 5th grader explain it to you.
Please!
Shawn, I agree with a lot of what you're saying regarding Frazier, but...
I have problems with your constantly using Jim Harbaugh of SF as a measuring stick for judgement. Seriously, how many rookie head coaches go 13-3 and reach the NFC title game? He should be considered a wild exception and not anything close to the rule. That team was loaded with young defensive talent when he came on board. Loaded. Nine years of losing seasons and high draft picks will do that for a team. And his predecessors may have been crappy coaches but they drafted very well defensively. They drafted a number of solid offensive players as well. All they needed was a good coach for them to reach their full potential and he provided that, no question. But he came into a nearly ideal situation when he arrived. As for Alex Smith, except maybe for the playoff game against NO they aren’t winning because of Alex Smith. They’re winning with a dominating defense.
by Zapf on Jan 19, 2012 9:45 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Three #1 draft picks were added to the defense this season
Aldon Smith – #7 overall in 2011
Donte Whitner -#8 overall in 2006
Carlos Rogers – #9 overall in 2005
Game, Set, Match Goes to Geo Mak
Very interesting thread going on.. Shawn you make some nice arguments but I favor the logic of GeoMak.. Course I’m Biased because I keep trying to defend Singletary.. What amazes me is all the negativity expressed on the boards,Some fans want (un-realistically) Dungy as GM and then they Howl when we can’t get him. THEN they Howl about the new Def Cord being a friend of Leslie.. But WWTDD (What Would Tony Dungy Do?) Ummm don’t we already know that! He is the one that hired Williams in the first place ? I don’t know what the future holds but we are getting some REAL BRAIN POWER around here.. Un-like the SELF PROCLAIMED GURU CHILDRESS
Frazier deserves 1 more season
But has to show significant progress (8 wins). Saying he deserved a free pass was not the right wording on my part. Apologies Shawn. Bud Grant also had a losing record his first season – glad we didn’t run him out of town.
by Torstein on Jan 19, 2012 9:38 PM CST via mobile reply actions
let's see...
the Rams go out and get Gregg Williams and now the Saints went out and got Steve Spagnuolo…and the Vikings get Alan Williams!?…Zygi must be best buds with Fred Wilpon…
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