The Morning After The 'Take It Or Leave It' Announcement
by Ted Glover on Jan 24, 2012 9:26 AM CST
in Minnesota Vikings Stadium
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So, it looks like the Governor Dayton has pretty much given the Vikings a 'take it or leave it' option with the Metrodome site.
Wow, nobody saw this one coming. I just assumed it would be the Farmer's Market site, because even I didn't think the state of Minnesota could be this stupid.
But they are. Sigh...
When you get into the meat of this story, the key words that jumped out at me in terms of Vikings reaction were 'upset' and 'frustrated'. When you add those two together, it's not a stretch to get to Pissedoffville, and once the car pulls into that town, from my understanding there's an on-ramp to the Los Angeles highway.
I mean really, if I'm Zygi Wilf, this is the proverbial last straw. Let's review, after the jump
After years and years of flat out 'no', the state of Minnesota told the Vikings 'pay for a good portion of it your self, find a local partner, and we'll kick in $300 million'.
Okay, the Vikings said. Minneapolis said no, they couldn't be a partner because Hennepin County expended all of its political capital to partner with the Twins and get Target Field built, using an increase in county sales taxes and bypassing a referendum at the same time.
Okay, we'll find somebody else, the Vikes said. Minneapolis quietly snickered, because they didn't think there would be anyone else with the economic ability to partner with the Vikings to get something done. I contend they felt they had the Vikings over a barrel and would deal with them when they were damn good and ready to.
Minnesota meets all of the state's requirements in partnering with Ramsey County, and announces the Arden Hills deal.
Minneapolis pisses down its leg, it's so mad. They vow to kill it.
They develop a plan to build a new stadium on the Metrodome site with no--zero,zip, nada--input from the Vikings.
The Vikings tell Minneapolis 'your plan sucks, we want to go to Arden Hills'.
The Governor says to everyone 'submit your best proposals, and I'll pick the best one'.
The Governor says 'they all suck, but Arden Hills is dead. The remaining plans need A LOT of work.'
Two days later he says 'it's the Metrodome site or nothing.'
Now they've pretty much killed the Vikings with this take it or leave it deal, a deal the Vikings have said without saying they'll leave it.
I expect them to start saying things like 'we're moving if there is no equitable stadium deal in the legislative session' in about a day or two.
I expect either the state or the Metropolitan Sports Facilities Commission to sue the Vikings to try and make them stay in Minnesota because the Vikes had to play away from the Metrodome for a few games last year, triggering an automatic one year extension. In the eyes of the MFSC, but that is not the opinion of the Vikings.
I expect the Vikings to win that lawsuit and gain their freedom.
And then I expect the Vikings to move.
This is the part of the story where I put in 307 different variations for the f word.
Discuss.
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And I'd be pray8ing to the Porcelin God
without having to use the effects of alcohol to acheive it.
Gentlemen! You can't fight in here, this is a war room!
by VikesFaninNM on Jan 24, 2012 9:47 AM CST up reply actions
Hey Ted...
I only know 306 versions… what’s the last one?
"I bang sloots off the field, and I bang dudes on the field."
"I don't give a sh!t what your name is, as long as your initials are DTF."
Thad Castle
Fahrvergnügen
Build up your weaknesses until they become your strong points." --Knute Rockne
by abba7 on Jan 24, 2012 10:50 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Rosen said on KFAN today
that most people out in LA are expecting the Rams to be there. The 3 year trip to London is part of the exposure plan worldwide.
I thought the Vikings had become much more open to the Metrodome as of late.
And I thought that they had found a way to expand parking around it.
I really hope I’m not watching the LA Vikings during the draft this year.
I think the way to expand it would be to buy the Star Tribune’s land. We tried to buy it a few years back but the deal fell through. The land is pretty much on Portland avenue.
What a coincidence.
You don't tug on Superman's cape
You don't spit into the wind
You don't pull the mask of the Spiderman
And you don't trash talk about him
by REVENGE4WEBB on Jan 24, 2012 5:36 PM CST up reply actions
I knew there was a reason i hadn't moved to MN
all this time i thought it was the weather.
turns out that MN politics are absolutely ridiculous. I guess that’s what you get when you actually elect Jesse Ventura as the governer.
the thing that really annoys me about this is the ‘voter referendum’. People elect lawmakers to make laws on their behalf. one thing that really annoys me is people think our government is a democracy. we are NOT a democracy, we are a REPUBLIC. we vote to place people into office to make the decisions on our behalf. if we do not like the decisions they make, we vote them out of office. that’s how a republic works. the reason the country was not founded as a democracy, is because most people are too easily swayed by propaganda to make an informed decision.
I am sad to say, my faith in our government is starting to fade more and more each day.
when asked by Dan Patrick if his name alluded to not making quick decisions in the pocket, Ponder calmly replied "As crazy as it sounds, my mom's maiden name is actually Superbowlwinner. All one word"
I assume you feel the same way about the voter ID referendum, the marriage amendment referendum, and the 60% to raise taxes referendum.
Am I right?
why elect officials if they aren’t going to do their jobs?
when asked by Dan Patrick if his name alluded to not making quick decisions in the pocket, Ponder calmly replied "As crazy as it sounds, my mom's maiden name is actually Superbowlwinner. All one word"
I guess my point is that countless times I’ve heard the rant you just made. That’s a fine opinion. But I rarely hear consistency in the opinion when it comes to those other referendums.
I don't disagree
I think inconsistency in any argument is bad. I have never been a fan of referendums. that is why we elect political officials. to make the decisions for us.
but, the inconsistency of this legislator and governer has been appauling.
when asked by Dan Patrick if his name alluded to not making quick decisions in the pocket, Ponder calmly replied "As crazy as it sounds, my mom's maiden name is actually Superbowlwinner. All one word"
It's not this legislature and this governor
It was the last legislature and the last governor.
this governer states, give me a proposal and i'll pick the best one
and then he picks a 4 page outline over a detailed proposal with cost analysis, timeline, funding source (though he didn’t like it) etc …
to me sounds a bit inconsistent
when asked by Dan Patrick if his name alluded to not making quick decisions in the pocket, Ponder calmly replied "As crazy as it sounds, my mom's maiden name is actually Superbowlwinner. All one word"
What makes you think "best" means "most pages?"
“Best” to me is “the one that can happen.”
Also, he really didn’t pick. Arden Hills is out because the legislature won’t pass new taxes. Linden Ave is out because the city won’t sell it’s land. Farmers Market is out because the Vikes don’t think it’s doable.
legislator won't pass new taxes
another inconsistency. They waived the referendum on every other occasion.
when asked by Dan Patrick if his name alluded to not making quick decisions in the pocket, Ponder calmly replied "As crazy as it sounds, my mom's maiden name is actually Superbowlwinner. All one word"
That's the point
It’s a different legislature. The 2010 elections brought in a waive of Tea Partiers who will say no to any tax.
Also, it’s not the waiver that’s the issue, it’s the new tax.
different legislature or not
the way the government has handled the vikings versus the twins and gophers is kind of pathetic. both the previous and active legislatures and governers are to blame
when asked by Dan Patrick if his name alluded to not making quick decisions in the pocket, Ponder calmly replied "As crazy as it sounds, my mom's maiden name is actually Superbowlwinner. All one word"
It's a different economy
And the financial situation of the different parties is a lot different.
and the current legislator will have to deal with that
I just think it’s awful shortsighted of the legislator to pass the buck to the next one, because ‘the economy is bad’ economies are cyclical, and it will turn around. but the economic impact of losing the team will be pretty devistating to the state. And i honestly believe that they are underestimating that
when asked by Dan Patrick if his name alluded to not making quick decisions in the pocket, Ponder calmly replied "As crazy as it sounds, my mom's maiden name is actually Superbowlwinner. All one word"
You govern with the legislature you have, not the one you want.
If you don’t want them to pass it on then you get the Dome site. If you want the Arden Hills site then the Vikings have to pony up more money or a pretty major change to the composition of the legislature needs to happen (i.e. the Vikings have to wait). Is that frustrating? Yup. Does the fact that it is frustrating change that this is the situation? Nope.
and this is why
Dayton’s remarks where not an ultimatum, but rather a statement of where the things are today. All he said is “the Great Inflatable Toilette is the only site the current legislators will be willing to pass.” that is not an ultimatum, but rather a statement of facts.
Will the Real Thor Please Stand Up ... ?
by the Real Thor on Jan 24, 2012 3:08 PM CST up reply actions
To note, it isn't a statement of facts either.
It’s his opinion about how he sees things playing out. It seems like the logical one given the current makeup of the legislature. But it isn’t set in stone yet (Target Field came out of left field in an election year for instance). I’m betting his take is correct though.
Come On
Just let them vent and stay on subect, I’m pissed too
by BleedPurple60 on Jan 24, 2012 9:57 AM CST up reply actions
The Mafia gets to the Governor Dayton
What a complete load of crap, the Governor cracked under pressure from the Lobbist and Special Intrest Groups, ie the Mafia. Leave the decisions to the actual people that are not influenced by money. Well if this goes through the Governor will retire comfortably. ASS.
Which lobbyists and special interests?
The Republican majorities in the legislature, who oppose any new taxes, or the Democratic majority on the Minneapolis city council that won’t cast 9 or 14 votes to sell the city’s land at Linden Ave?
It's not always Black and White
You really don’t think it’s that simple! You have to look a little harder, what drives votes.
by BleedPurple60 on Jan 24, 2012 10:25 AM CST up reply actions
Dayton is super rich before he took public office
he could have always retired rich. he has come off as a bit weak in all this, but then remember that he caved 100% in the budget stand-off last summer. the republican/tea-partiers have an absolute control over all that happens politically in this state right now. our only hope is to rebalance the state legislature in Nov, but that may be to late to save the vikings
at this ppoint I think the Vieks should announce that hey will be playing at the coliseum next year and until the Arden Hills sight is approved. Arden Hills or bust right back at the legislature!
Will the Real Thor Please Stand Up ... ?
by the Real Thor on Jan 24, 2012 11:49 AM CST up reply actions
If they had any power to choose the Coliseum that might be an option.
Unfortunately thanks to the LA stadium folks never making promised upgrades it is USC who controls access to the Coliseum.
In other words, they can’t move right now even if they wanted to because there aren’t the agreements in place that they’d need.
I wasn't talking about a permanent move,
they would be temporarily the Minnesota Vikings playing in LA, and they are perfectly free to negotiate with USC to play there on Sundays, when the Coliseum is otherwise unoccupied, thanks to College games being played on saterdays. the Vikes are paying, what about 6-7 mill a year to play at the Great Inflatable Toilette? I am sure that USC would love an extra 6-7 mil next year, doing something like this, while keeping the name and showing that the intent is not to move to LA permanenty, but rather simply needing a place to play until the stadium issue in Arden Hills is resolved, could go a long way to showing that the Vikes are the only ones serius about this issue, as well as calling the Tea Baggers bluff.
Will the Real Thor Please Stand Up ... ?
by the Real Thor on Jan 24, 2012 3:13 PM CST up reply actions
by the way,
I understand that this will never happen, but starting to negotiate with USC in a private (but leaked) manner, might help things along.
Will the Real Thor Please Stand Up ... ?
by the Real Thor on Jan 24, 2012 3:14 PM CST up reply actions
Sometimes it isn't all about the money.
There are 3 major factions opposed to the Arden Hills site. 2 of them don’t have anything to do with lobbyists.
- The “no new taxes” crowd. They are motivated by ideology on this issue. Lobbying isn’t part of it.
- The “no public money for a stadium” crowd. Also motivated by ideology (though the source of that varies, be it “schools first”, “no Wilfare”, etc).
- The “we don’t support public money if it overwhelmingly benefit a single private entity” group. Could also include the “we don’t support public money in Arden Hills because of the infrastructure and other investments already made in downtown” group. This is the group that is susceptible to lobbying. Some may be taking this stance because they believe it or b/c the represent Minneapolis and it’s the best move for their constituents. But since this is also the stance of the business leaders, you’d have to take the time to also see what kind of contributions they are getting to know for sure.
This is why Arden Hill isn’t happening. There are multiple factions opposed and 2 of them are ideological (i.e. won’t change their mind because they know they are right evidence be damned!)
Miller, this isn't a Republican - Democrat issue....
It is a giant “Fock You” by the Minneapolis Downtown Business Leaders Secret Handshake Club.
They will do anything to dictate and capitalize on any development project of this magnitude.
Way to go boys, we love that whole E-Block fiasco almost as much as City Center.
You don't tug on Superman's cape
You don't spit into the wind
You don't pull the mask of the Spiderman
And you don't trash talk about him
by REVENGE4WEBB on Jan 24, 2012 5:43 PM CST up reply actions
It's not a R/D issue.
Both sides have factions that are causing problems. But “the Mafia” of downtown is not the only problem here. The “Mafia” are not the reason Republican leaders decided not to bring the AH site up for discussion at a special session. If you believe that…well, I have a wonderful bridge to sell you.
All I said is that it is not a republican-democrat issue...it is a business issue.
for people who have business interests in downtown minneapolis and the cronies.
The way it plays out in the public political arena is mostly irrelevant.
You don't tug on Superman's cape
You don't spit into the wind
You don't pull the mask of the Spiderman
And you don't trash talk about him
by REVENGE4WEBB on Jan 24, 2012 6:32 PM CST up reply actions
And I'm pointing out...
…that the “business issue” is simply one part of it. “No new taxes” is another significant part. There is no single group standing in the way. They are all playing a role in this mess.
Heck, to assume that all the legislators supporting the downtown proposals over AH strictly because “businesses told them too” doesn’t even work. Proving it (like, by checking donations) is kind of important too. The business connection looms large and is clearly a factor, but it isn’t the only reason legislators might support a downtown site over Arden Hills.
The business connection looms large
by far the largest and most influential.
You don't tug on Superman's cape
You don't spit into the wind
You don't pull the mask of the Spiderman
And you don't trash talk about him
by REVENGE4WEBB on Jan 24, 2012 6:41 PM CST up reply actions
Again, no it isn't.
It’s Rs with one objection and mostly, but not only, Ds with another.
The business interest downtown don’t come into it that much, other than not being willing to lean on those with objections to try to move them.
It just isn't.
It some republicans and some Dems, generally for different reasons.
The “mafia” is in your head.
You don't seem to want to pay attention to what drives the wheels of politics.
You don't tug on Superman's cape
You don't spit into the wind
You don't pull the mask of the Spiderman
And you don't trash talk about him
by REVENGE4WEBB on Jan 24, 2012 6:33 PM CST up reply actions
And you're willfully ignoring...
…large parts of the equation to feel secure in your C.R.E.A.M. approach.
I am just paying attention to who is trying to call the shots here.
WAKE UP.
You don't tug on Superman's cape
You don't spit into the wind
You don't pull the mask of the Spiderman
And you don't trash talk about him
by REVENGE4WEBB on Jan 24, 2012 6:40 PM CST up reply actions
Last person who brought up Arden Hills -
Build up your weaknesses until they become your strong points." --Knute Rockne
The Mafia gets to the Governor Dayton
No, “The Mafia” is who put Dayton in office in the first place.
You don't tug on Superman's cape
You don't spit into the wind
You don't pull the mask of the Spiderman
And you don't trash talk about him
by REVENGE4WEBB on Jan 24, 2012 5:40 PM CST up reply actions
No, that would be the people of Minnesota actually.
There was something called an election. You might have heard of them.
Who got behind Dayton in the first place? He is in office for a reason.
Funny how the Strib has such an influential role in all of this too. WAKE UP.
You don't tug on Superman's cape
You don't spit into the wind
You don't pull the mask of the Spiderman
And you don't trash talk about him
by REVENGE4WEBB on Jan 24, 2012 6:34 PM CST up reply actions
Sooooo...
…all the people who voted for him are mindless robots controlled by the STrib? Unable to make their own choices? The STrib has a dog in this fight and they don’t always hide it well. And business has a part in it to. But it isn’t the only factor.
Unless Republicans now hate big business and that’s why they wouldn’t allow the AH site to come up in a special session.
Oh stop it. You aren't convincing.
You don't tug on Superman's cape
You don't spit into the wind
You don't pull the mask of the Spiderman
And you don't trash talk about him
by REVENGE4WEBB on Jan 24, 2012 6:43 PM CST up reply actions
This about sum's it up for me, paraphrased of course.
I’d like Gov. Dayton and the entire Legislature, right here in front of me. I want them brought from their happy slumber along with all the other rich politicians and I want them brought right here, with big ribbons on their heads, and I want to look them straight in the eye and I want to tell them what a cheap, lying, no-good, rotten, four-flushing, low-life, snake-licking, dirt-eating, inbred, overstuffed, ignorant, blood-sucking, dog-kissing, brainless, dickless, hopeless, heartless, fat-ass, bug-eyed, stiff-legged, spotty-lipped, worm-headed sack of monkey shit they are!
Hallelujah! Holy shit! Where’s the Tylenol?
Gentlemen! You can't fight in here, this is a war room!
by VikesFaninNM on Jan 24, 2012 9:54 AM CST reply actions 5 recs
That goes for all government in this country as far as I'm concerned
How much can a federal government fail it’s people? Turns out there is no limit.
The feds are worse...."how 'bout another war to profit from?"
You don't tug on Superman's cape
You don't spit into the wind
You don't pull the mask of the Spiderman
And you don't trash talk about him
by REVENGE4WEBB on Jan 24, 2012 5:47 PM CST up reply actions
I understand you're emotional
But does that mean you should misstate the facts?
The governor said this site or nothing this year. That’s just the political reality. The legislature (thanks to the new Tea Party republicans) won’t vote for any new tax. So that’s Arden Hills out this year. Meanwhile, the Minneapolis city council won’t vote to sell the city land at Linden Ave because there are too many stadium-opponent liberals to get the required 9 or 14 votes. So that’s Linden Ave. out. The Vikes have said the Farmer’s Market has “issues,” so that’s out.
That leaves the Metrodome. It can be done without any new local taxes and there aren’t any existing land owners to appease, so it’s the one with the best shot of happening now (without any major changes in the political players).
Also, this business about what “the state” told the Vike years ago with a different governor and different majorities in both houses of the legislature is pretty disingenuous.
Dude, the lease is up
the Vikes aren’t obligated to stay. The Vikings and the Raiders are the only teams that have lost money in the last few seasons. There are markets in Los Angeles or London that will double or triple the value of the franchise the second they pull up stakes.
The NFL will not allow a team to lose money in a mrket where they could be practically prinitng it in another.
I hope, but I will be STUNNED, if Wilf agrees to wait around another year when there is no guarantee that something will get done next year. I can only assume they’re done waiting around for a legislature and governor to act when nothing has been done in a decade.
And when they’ve been given guidelines to get a stadium, they’ve had more roadblocks put in their way.
If you were Wilf, woulf YOU wait around another year? I wouldn’t.
This naive opinion is what has us in this current spot.
"Go hard. I mean, like relentless. I want a bunch of coaches that coach like their hair’s on fire, and I want a football team that goes for four to six seconds (per play) with relentless effort." OSU Coach Urban Meyer.
Vikes didn't lose money.
They are still profitable, just at the very bottom end of that.
At least that is the information I have. If you can find a source to the contrary then apologies.
by Jepp The Viking on Jan 24, 2012 10:22 AM CST up reply actions
But don't they get a subsidy from the NFL?
I thought I read that somwhere, so I don’t state that as fact. However, if true, then it would be most accurate to say “the Vikings would be losing money if not for the subsidy from the NFL”.
Nits and nats aside, if the NFL is keeping the Vikes in the black, they won’t want to do that forever, and so will seek greener pastures. Wherever they may be.
They share revenue
Most of which is the TV contract, which is league-wide. That’s not really a subsidy.
Technically True
However, the TV revenue is split up equally among the teams regardless of market size (aka the amount the team contributes to the pie). This means small revenue teams, like the Vikings get more out of the pie than they put into the pie. Whereas big revenue teams get less out of the pie than they put into it. Therefore the owners of the big revenue teams view it as a subsidy. They’ve been rattling sabers about changing how the pie is divided, so they’re clearly unahppy about “subsidizing” teams like the Vikings.
However you label it, the league views the Vikings as not pulling their own weight financially speaking. That’s going to influence the NFL’s decision making processes as well as Zygi’s decision making processes.
Only if you ignore the other team on the field
The Giants don’t “put more in” in any real sense, unless they are capable of playing themselves every week.
I Don't Necessarily Disagree
Although I do disagree a little. However, it’s ultimately irrelevant what you and I think, or how we view the situation. The NFL, especially big revenue owners, feel they are subsidizing small revenue teams and they don’t give a rat’s ass what you and I think about it.
The shared revenue streams are from broadcast TV and pay-per-view type media. Where do the networks get their money to pay the NFL? Advertising. What determines how much the network can charge for advertising? Number of viewers. Who delivers more viewers, a team in New York, or a team in Minnesota? In the owners view, the team in New York has a larger fan base than the team from Minnesota. Therefore, they have more fans tuning in and ponying up for pay-per-view than the team from Minnesota (not saying I agree, just pointing out their point of view). Therefore, in their opinion, the team from New York is responsible for generating more advertising and pay-per-view revenue than the team from Minnesota.
I agree that it isn’t necessarily “real” in that you can directly trace each and every dollar of revenue to a specific team. But in the minds of the decision makers, it’s real enough to influence their decision making processes. Like it or not, the NFL and the other owners have influence over the Vikings fate, and at some point could sway, if not outright fund, the Vikings to move.
As a wise man once said “know thine enemy”.
You just made an argument
For contracting Green Bay, Kansas City, and Oakland, at least.
The point is that the Vikings don’t get a bigger slice of the TV contract because their other revenues are low. Thus the other owners don’t have a huge reason to care whether those other revenues go up, aside from the secondary impact on the value of their franchises that comes from being partners with a ugly step child.
So far, the NFL has avoided the stupidity of MLB owners who think their franchises have value individually.
But you’e right, the New York franchises are far more important to the total tv revenues than the Vikes, but putting the Vikes in a new stadium doesn’t change that at all.
also,
the twin cities are the 14th largest metropolitan area in the country. that means there are approx 8-12 teams that play in smaller markets then MN. so rev sharing in this light applies very little to the MN vikings in particular.
Will the Real Thor Please Stand Up ... ?
by the Real Thor on Jan 24, 2012 12:33 PM CST up reply actions
"Metropolitian Area" vs. "Minneapolis" that is the problem here.
There is a perfectly good place in the “Metropolitan Area” to put a new stadium…it’s in Arden Hills. BUT, the Minneapolis Downtown Business Club will do absolutely anything to derail a solution that is good for the “Metroplitan Area” if it is not in downtown Minneapolis.
The city of minneapolis is ranked around number 45 in population in the country, but it will promote itself as the 15th largest population base when it suits their own purposes. The hypocrits.
FOCK THEM. Grow some balls Zygi, threaten to move the team and you will see Arden Hills project unfold perfectly for you. GUARANTEED.
You don't tug on Superman's cape
You don't spit into the wind
You don't pull the mask of the Spiderman
And you don't trash talk about him
by REVENGE4WEBB on Jan 24, 2012 5:57 PM CST up reply actions
You're right, minimally profitable
This link here by Forbes:
http://www.forbes.com/lists/2011/30/nfl-valuations-11_Minnesota-Vikings_309201.html
Shows the Vikes lost as much as $19 million in 2007, which was the number I had in my head. My bad, I thought that was within the last year or two, but they had a nice run. They had a couple of successful seasons, and their profit, largely based on 2009, got them in the black.
But they only made $4 million this year, but that is before taxes, interest, depreciation, and amoritization. I’ll give is a lot of money, but when you compare it to other teams who make upwards of $50 million or more, or in the case of Dallas over $100 million with a new stadium, there’s no way the NFL will force the Vikings to stay in Minnesota if they can get a good deal in another city.
"Go hard. I mean, like relentless. I want a bunch of coaches that coach like their hair’s on fire, and I want a football team that goes for four to six seconds (per play) with relentless effort." OSU Coach Urban Meyer.
What are you talking about?
The choice facing the Vikings is: 1) make something work at the Metrodome site, 2) give it another year in hopes of doing something else, and 3) leave.
My guess of the probabilities of those is: 1) 65%, 2) 10, 3) 25. But we’ll see in coming weeks.
Given that they have said they can work with the Dome site, the real question is whether they can agree with the governor and legislative leaders on numbers that work.
There's been no indication
from anyone in the legislature that the Metrodome site will work. Minneapolis likes it, but neither Zellers or Senjem have said they have the votes for any plan.
The Vikes have said that if the Metrodome was the choice of the staate, the $425 million team contribution would significantly drop. I find it difficult to believe that if the Vikes drop the amount of money they’re throwing in the pot it will have political support in the legislature, because the state’s contribution would increase.
Look, at the end of the day if they can come to an agreement on the Metrodome site, I’ll jump for joy, because I want the Vikings to stay in Minnesota. But options one and two seem longshots right now, at least from where I stand.
"Go hard. I mean, like relentless. I want a bunch of coaches that coach like their hair’s on fire, and I want a football team that goes for four to six seconds (per play) with relentless effort." OSU Coach Urban Meyer.
Right
The legislature has been publicly silent on the Dome site. But they’ve been pretty clear about no new taxes, and it’s a pretty safe assumption that the governor’s office has been talking to them.
That's not a safe assumption at all
The Legislators I talked to last year said that he wouldn’t even talk to them for weeks at a time about the budget before we had the shut-down, in spite of what the Strib said…
by liveforadrenaline on Jan 24, 2012 10:49 AM CST up reply actions
So, not the same legislative topic...
…and you’re also assuming that what you heard was true given the amount of public blame/finger pointing that fiasco created.
Just saying, anything related to a government shutdown that you can’t empirically prove should be taken with a grain of salt.
No
I talked directly to 2 Senators and 3 House Members, none of whom varied an inch on what they said, which is that for many weeks the Governor wouldn’t respond to their letters, calls, or requests for a meeting delivered by their messengers.
If I had read it somewhere or seen it in a blog or heard it third party then I would agree with you, as I have a healthy distrust for the spin that is out there.
by liveforadrenaline on Jan 24, 2012 1:30 PM CST up reply actions
OK, even if true...
…it’s still important to remember that this isn’t the same issue. Government shutdown is kind of in it’s own category and the political strategies involved are not always the same.
True
But I still think it is weird that he is speculating about what can and can’t be accomplished.
Is he saying that politicians don’t ever cut deals or compromise to get something done?
Why is he even speaking for the Legislature? The latest I got from a Senator just today is that although no bill has yet been introduced concerning the Stadium, it is being worked on and will have bi-partisan support.
I’m assuming that any bill introduced by the House and passed by the Senate will go to the Governor’s desk.
If he wants to veto it then his neck is on the line…
by liveforadrenaline on Jan 24, 2012 1:41 PM CST up reply actions
Is he saying that politicians don’t ever cut deals or compromise to get something done?
When was the last time this happened in the current legislature.
I think the biggest issue is that there are 2 ideological camps in play. One is “no new taxes” and the other is “no public money for stadiums ever.” I believe the first is bigger than the second but don’t know that for sure. The more important issue is how large a part of the Republican caucus is the first camp. As I recall, it’s pretty big. That means that even if the Republican leadership disagrees and wants to do something like waive the referendum on AH they probably can’t because too many of their members won’t let them bring it to the floor without making them pay. Then toss in election year politics.
Why is he even speaking for the Legislature? The latest I got from a Senator just today is that although no bill has yet been introduced concerning the Stadium, it is being worked on and will have bi-partisan support.
I dunno. It’s probably a bad idea since some folks will ignorantly or willfully blame him as the problem even if he’s right. And he could certainly be wrong (let him be wrong). But based on the current makeup/behavior of the legislature he wouldn’t seem to be wrong either.
If he wants to veto it then his neck is on the line…
Nothing he’s said suggests he’d do that. He’d be a fool of all fools to do so.
If he did that...
If he wants to veto it then his neck is on the line…
I would think he would be recalled
Seems to me
Is he saying that politicians don’t ever cut deals or compromise to get something done?
Maybe I’m just an ignorant bystander, but it seems to me like they just shout across the aisle at each other for a couple hours and then go home. Cooperation and compromise are two words that Republicans and Democrats seem to be growing increasingly allergic to.
Since the last election
tell me one compromise that has been reached?
…
(hears crickets)
…
oh yea, that’s right not one.
Will the Real Thor Please Stand Up ... ?
by the Real Thor on Jan 24, 2012 3:30 PM CST up reply actions
you do understand
is that they are lying to you right? there were extensive talks, and attempts by the gov to negotiate with the Tea Baggers for Month’s but they took a page out of the National Party’s play book and stonewalled, even when they were going to get mostly their way. and finally they did get entirely their way, and yours, mine and every other MN taxes (in the form of local property tax’s) went up as a result. all because there is not a republican in the gov (presidents) chair. even when the dems come out and say, lets do what you want, the answer has been a resounding “not until our guy holds that office.” and there is enough of them so that nothing can get done because their is not enough votes to get around the, as far from conservitive’s as is possible on a left to right line that extends to infinity as it gets. the Tea Baggers are sooooooooo far out there that they are radicals rather then conservatives, and the republican party will do itself a great service when it kicks them out to form their own party, only then can we have a balanced political system where things, you know, actually get done.
Will the Real Thor Please Stand Up ... ?
by the Real Thor on Jan 24, 2012 3:25 PM CST up reply actions
Isn't "Tea Bagging" that thing that wrestlers do to haze each other?
I would describe it here, but I don’t think that describing how 5 guys hold down one guy while another guy rests his schweaty balls on the other guys face is something that we need to discuss here.
You don't tug on Superman's cape
You don't spit into the wind
You don't pull the mask of the Spiderman
And you don't trash talk about him
by REVENGE4WEBB on Jan 24, 2012 6:03 PM CST up reply actions
Ted, they may not even be ABLE to move yet.
An agreement would have to be reached not with the LA folks who want a stadium but with the USC folks who appear ready to drive a hard bargain to get needed improvements to the Coliseum. Not saying that’s a hard deal, but since USC now controls access to the only place in LA a team can play it isn’t like they can pull up stakes overnight without doing some more work first. Think “upgrade TCF” type work (minus the heating coils).
Doesn't have to be LA
"Go hard. I mean, like relentless. I want a bunch of coaches that coach like their hair’s on fire, and I want a football team that goes for four to six seconds (per play) with relentless effort." OSU Coach Urban Meyer.
Where are they going to play? San Diego? Oakland? San Fran? Barnstorming?
I’m not saying it isn’t doable, I’m just suggesting the plan to leave would need to happen pretty soon.
London or LA
But all it takes is one.
Or Wilf will sell to a guy who will move the team.
"Go hard. I mean, like relentless. I want a bunch of coaches that coach like their hair’s on fire, and I want a football team that goes for four to six seconds (per play) with relentless effort." OSU Coach Urban Meyer.
San Antonio has been looking for a team
But three teams in Texas seems a bit much.
The Vikes aren't in a remodeling or reconstruction they are in a burn the place down and start praying they don't mimic the Lions rebuilding process.
Milwaukee or Madison
You don't tug on Superman's cape
You don't spit into the wind
You don't pull the mask of the Spiderman
And you don't trash talk about him
by REVENGE4WEBB on Jan 24, 2012 6:06 PM CST up reply actions
That is political reality according to Dayton.
That is far from making it a fact. Dayton is using this as a political football.
The NDSU Bison rock.
by berserkerND on Jan 24, 2012 11:07 AM CST up reply actions
Care to explain how he's wrong?
Amiller92 has laid out the political realities. If you think he’s wrong, you should point out where. Otherwise you’re blaming without facts.
No, he just laid them out the way he wants to view them.
You don't tug on Superman's cape
You don't spit into the wind
You don't pull the mask of the Spiderman
And you don't trash talk about him
by REVENGE4WEBB on Jan 24, 2012 6:06 PM CST up reply actions
Um hmm...
…typically your point has more weight if you both to point out where you think he’s wrong. “MAFIA!!!!!!” makes for a great conspiracy but not much of a complete explanation for a complex issue.
"Mafia" is a rhetorical characterization. It represents an organized system of business.
You don't tug on Superman's cape
You don't spit into the wind
You don't pull the mask of the Spiderman
And you don't trash talk about him
by REVENGE4WEBB on Jan 24, 2012 6:36 PM CST up reply actions
It's also secondary
No new taxes and no subsidies for rich guys are much bigger factors.
I don't want the Vikings to come here to SoCal...
They belong in Minn. But if they have to go somewhere I would rather it be here than somewhere else. Talk about conflicted….
Solution...if the vikings move to LA, then you should move to Minnesota.
You don't tug on Superman's cape
You don't spit into the wind
You don't pull the mask of the Spiderman
And you don't trash talk about him
by REVENGE4WEBB on Jan 24, 2012 6:07 PM CST up reply actions
I don't think Minn. really cares if the Vikings stay or not
Guys I live in Pennsylvania and this state is broke as shit, we can’t afford to pay attention. Our governor is closing schools, cutting state workers pay and slashing medical assistance to the old people, along with numerous other things. Amazingly enough though, we still support the Eagles and Steelers, 76ers, Flyers, Penguins and a ton of minor league teams (and the Eagles just built a new stadium about 5 years ago) .If the Minny govt. honestly wanted to keep the Vikes there I think they would find a way. To me it seems like they just don’t care either way so I really wouldn’t be surprised if they announce that the team is moving shortly, wouldnt be happy about it but it is what it is…
I wake up in the morning and piss excellence
Hrm that's a hard thing to swallow
give up my kids education or have the Vikes stay in Minnesota. Hate to say it but I’m going to have to go with the kids. Problem is it isn’t really that simple. I’m sure there are planty of ways the government is spending money that wouldn’t involve lowering the standard of living for the masses…
The Vikes aren't in a remodeling or reconstruction they are in a burn the place down and start praying they don't mimic the Lions rebuilding process.
Education vs. Stadium is not a real conundrum
Although certain folks would like to paint it as such. Money spent on the stadium would not be a gift, but rather an investment. Although we can dicker and argue about the how much the return on that investment would be, its pretty easy to see that the $300 million from the state would not be simply flushed down the toilet. Much, if not all (or more) of that money will come back to the state.
So no one has to take $300 million from the kids’ piggy bank and kiss it good bye forever.
On the other hand, if the Vikes leave, we will have to kiss goodbye to the $20 million (plus or minus) that they currently contribute to the state which is then spent on education. Yes we can dicker and argue over the exact impact a Vikings departure would have, but anyone who believes that a business that gererates $20 million per year in tax revenue can up and leave and that $20 million in revenue will magically replace itself is dreaming.
And that's not including all of the local charities that Vikings players contribute.
1) They need to make this a Multi-Function building (obviously).
2) This is a great opportunity to create JOBS.
3) Even if the profit is minimal… profit is profit.
If Minnesota were to pick the best site available, (doubtfully), but maybe, just maybe, if this stadium were to be pristine / state of the art, there’s a slim possibility that they could have a shot to host the Super Bowl someday.
yeah I understand that which is why I put that last sentence in.
people on both sides of this argument like hyperbole just putting it out there in all of its inanity.
The Vikes aren't in a remodeling or reconstruction they are in a burn the place down and start praying they don't mimic the Lions rebuilding process.
But the schools are funded locally here.
You don't tug on Superman's cape
You don't spit into the wind
You don't pull the mask of the Spiderman
And you don't trash talk about him
by REVENGE4WEBB on Jan 24, 2012 6:09 PM CST up reply actions
Wilf should put the team up for sale
That way if the Vikings end up in the Metrodome for another season it won’t be on his dime and the new owner can move it to wherever they want to without any real fallout.
That is what the last owner did.
The Green Bay Packers...Putting bad coaches out of their misery since 2010
yeah but Red also drove it into the ground
He left, but he also cheaped out the last couple of years.
The Vikes aren't in a remodeling or reconstruction they are in a burn the place down and start praying they don't mimic the Lions rebuilding process.
Maybe that is what they are trying to pull. To get a local buyer to buy the team
and sign another lease with the new and improved Metrodome. I mean, it has a new roof and turf now.
You don't tug on Superman's cape
You don't spit into the wind
You don't pull the mask of the Spiderman
And you don't trash talk about him
by REVENGE4WEBB on Jan 24, 2012 6:10 PM CST up reply actions
Spot On
Minneapolis clearly doesn’t want to lose the Vikings. Its equally clear that they want to spend the least amount of money possible to keep them. From a fan’s point of view, that sucks. From a taxpayer’s point of view, that’s prudent, and not all that different than Zygi’s strategy.
At this point the Vikes have 3 options:
1) go with the Metronome option. Additional Cost = $70 million
2) wait until after the elections and try a different option. Additional Cost = $42 million
3) move. Additional cost > $100 million
So yeah, the mafia thinks they have Zygi over a barrel. My biggest fear is the smug Minneapolis bastages will over-play their hand and Zygi will call their bluff. Perhaps the NFL drops their relocation fee and even kicks in some cash to fund the move. I’m sure they’d love to quit subsidizing the Vikes.
Frustration
I hope that the frustration does not get too overwhelming and the Wilf’s say enough is enough and do exactly what you said. Minnesota politics Suck !!!!
by BleedPurple60 on Jan 24, 2012 10:45 AM CST up reply actions
It's not always about people screwing the Vikings.
I’m sure there are some who think they have the Vikings “over a barrel” and they think it’s great. For anyone else, this is just the reality of what can happen this session. Being upset about it won’t change things.
I'm not too worried, yet
The Legislature has barely started their session.
Dayton is just mouthing off, and it appears mostly to be an attention-getting device, since he has no agreement with the Legislature on doing anything or doing nothing or going with the Metrodump site.
I’ll wait until the House and Senate weigh in on this matter, as they’ve now gotten a boatload of comments from constituents.
by liveforadrenaline on Jan 24, 2012 10:43 AM CST reply actions
If by "mouthing off" you mean...
…“simply pointing out the legislative reality as of today”. This is what can happen this session unless the major factions opposed to Arden Hill suddenly change their tune (and given that 2 of them are ideological I wouldn’t hold my breath).
To DMacAD:
With a new stadium, that revenue is projexted to be almost $30 mil/yr multiply that by 30 years, which is the length of the lease they said they would sign, and that’s over $900,000,000. Subtract $650,000,000, and that’s still a profit to the state we like to call in the accounting world a shitload of money.
So what’s the problem?
“Go hard. I mean, like relentless. I want a bunch of coaches that coach like their hair’s on fire, and I want a football team that goes for four to six seconds (per play) with relentless effort.” OSU Coach Urban Meyer.
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by Ted Glover on Jan 23, 2012 9:14 PM PST up reply actions
And I’m sure this doesn’t include the taxes and jobs directly related to the building of the new stadium. Sorry it took me so long to find this.
If we can't laugh at ourselves, Packer fans will call us crybabies and we will be forced to kick their tooth in. I really don't want to go to jail (again).
by Alittlemore_cowbell on Jan 24, 2012 10:50 AM CST reply actions
**the taxes off of jobs
If we can't laugh at ourselves, Packer fans will call us crybabies and we will be forced to kick their tooth in. I really don't want to go to jail (again).
by Alittlemore_cowbell on Jan 24, 2012 10:53 AM CST up reply actions
The difference
between you and I is you use rosy projections from the Vikings organization and Vikings bloggers (there is no way they could be biased, is there?) and I use projections from 30 years of economic data and dozens of stadiums.
I am absolutely biased
but it is a fact that the Arden Hills Stadium would have made money.
If we can't laugh at ourselves, Packer fans will call us crybabies and we will be forced to kick their tooth in. I really don't want to go to jail (again).
by Alittlemore_cowbell on Jan 24, 2012 11:07 AM CST up reply actions
No.
That is not a fact. I don’t think the word “fact” means what you think it means.
i'll rephrase for him
it is an assumption with a strong argument due to the opportunity for additional development around the site that would increase property values around a site that is currently not doing anything, put people to work in the restaurant and entertainment industry with new hotels, restaurants, etc providing addtional income taxes to the state, and parking revenue to the team
when asked by Dan Patrick if his name alluded to not making quick decisions in the pocket, Ponder calmly replied "As crazy as it sounds, my mom's maiden name is actually Superbowlwinner. All one word"
Of course
You have to consider that any spending around these new entertainment areas would be spending directly taken away from other entertainment areas, and therefore their tax revenue is negligible. It is nothing more than a shift in spending from Minneapolis businesses to Zygi Wilf’s Arden Hills businesses.
I respectively disagree
The only places that will lose a bit of revenue are restaurants directly around the metrodome, and even then, i don’t think it will be much of an impact.
if there is a tailgating opportunity, people will more likely stay the night before or night after, and will venture out to the restaurant, night club, hotel scene. I am also quite certain that people will not have a problem traveling from minneapolis to arden hills on game day from staying in the hotel the night before. it’s all who has the best deal.
for example, i’ve traveled to KC on several occasions to Arrowhead (the one place i think of when looking at arden hills) my group always stays at a hotel about 20 miles from the site, goes out to eat in downtown KC the night before, and hits the bar scene) then we get up, tailgate, have a blast for the day, stay after the game for a while, hit a restaurant out of town, and go home)
when asked by Dan Patrick if his name alluded to not making quick decisions in the pocket, Ponder calmly replied "As crazy as it sounds, my mom's maiden name is actually Superbowlwinner. All one word"
You
“don’t think” it will be much of an impact. People will “more likely” stay the night before or after. You are “quite certain” that people will not have a problem traveling form Minneapolis to arden hills.
This is why I get frustrated discussing this subject. People make wild assertions that, even if they were true, do not come close to justfying a stadium economically. There are people who have studied this exact subject for over twenty years that are much smarter than you or I, and the fact of the matter is these stadiums don’t pay off.
Argue for the stadium from an entertainment, pride, heritage, or whatever other viewpoint you want; just don’t try to argue that this is a slam dunk for the taxpayer. That is dishonest, and it is the reason Zygi is going to fleece the public for so much money.
you don't have proof
that the information will ‘have spendign that will directly take away’ other areas. i think indirectly maybe, but not directly. i did not state any of my opinions were fact. i said they were assumptions and opinions. i provide concrete examples of another place doing something similar to what the vikings want to accomplish.
when asked by Dan Patrick if his name alluded to not making quick decisions in the pocket, Ponder calmly replied "As crazy as it sounds, my mom's maiden name is actually Superbowlwinner. All one word"
How
does it not make sense to you that if the Vikings build a stadium in Arden Hills, the spending before Vikings games would shift from Minneapolis to Arden Hills? Or do you think people would go to bars downtown, stay in hotels downtown, and tailgate downtown, and we would just magically come up with an entire new section of fans that would do the same thing in Arden Hills?
It's not actually much of a stretch
To think that the total dollars could be expanded from improving the game day experience.
One of the most obvious failings of the Metrodome is the lack of other pre- and post-game entertainment options nearby, In the immediate vicinity, you’ve got Hubert’s and almost nothing else. Building a stadium, whether there or AH or anywhere else, that integrates better with surrounding entertainment and shopping facilities could easily cause people make a bigger event out of game day and spend more.
A different location
does NOT equal a zero-sum situation, for exactly the reasons you stated. The “Zero-Sum” mentality indicates skewed thought process. Judging by DMac’s 9:27 post, in my OPINION, spells out the reason for this skewed process. Idealogy, using the populist “the rich guy is gonna SCREW us,” betrays the REAL reason for his opposition.
Success, and economic advancement, is NOT a Zero-Sum proposition. Unless you MAKE it that way, by bending the rules to make yourself feel better.
by TexasVikesFan on Jan 25, 2012 3:02 AM CST up reply actions
Why do cities fight over stadium rights?
If it is so economically disadvantageous to have it? Even here, there were several places that made bids for the rights to host the Vikings. Minneapolis has twisted political arms to squeeze others out, yet it is a money losing proposition? Are all these people stupid?
If it's down wrong, yes
Of course, the point is to try to make new and better things that causes people to expand their entertainment spending.
And, of course, in Arden Hills part of the broader plan is to build new housing and other development projects that may involve actual new investment.
Population is constantly increasing,
therefore, this argument is flawed.
If we can't laugh at ourselves, Packer fans will call us crybabies and we will be forced to kick their tooth in. I really don't want to go to jail (again).
by Alittlemore_cowbell on Jan 24, 2012 11:30 AM CST up reply actions
And this is a big argument I've always had with this
And it’s the assumption that the disposable income we’re talking about is money that’s already here in Minnesota to begin with, and people would just shift and spend that disposable income on a movie, dishwasher, whatever it may be if the Vikings leave.
And they will…but a good 25% of Vikings season ticket holders are from outside Mpls or Minnesota, so they come specifically to Minneapolis to spend that money. Yes, you’re right, they’ll still spend that money if they can’t on a VIkings game, but it will be in Fargo, or Des Moines, or wherever it is they live.
"Go hard. I mean, like relentless. I want a bunch of coaches that coach like their hair’s on fire, and I want a football team that goes for four to six seconds (per play) with relentless effort." OSU Coach Urban Meyer.
The only
important fans in this argument are the ones from outside of the state. The ones in state only represent a shift in spending from one city to another. I would love to see some real numbers on the number of fans from out of state who come to each of the 8 home games.
Again, I disagree
Vikes tickets and going to a game are pricey, $300-400 bucks for a family of three or four, depending on how many domedogs and drinks you get.
A lot of that money would be used to go on trips, again away from Minnesota, especially in the winter, and that is money that the state doesn’t recoup.
"Go hard. I mean, like relentless. I want a bunch of coaches that coach like their hair’s on fire, and I want a football team that goes for four to six seconds (per play) with relentless effort." OSU Coach Urban Meyer.
$300-$400?
Maybe for in state people, but that’s extremely on the low side for us traveling. If I come to a game, just alone, I am dropping more than that in Minnesota with tickets, food, drinks, hotel, and gas.
"Arguing with anonymous strangers on the Internet is a sucker's game because they almost always turn out to be—or to be indistinguishable from—self-righteous sixteen-year-olds possessing infinite amounts of free time."
― Neal Stephenson, Cryptonomicon
I was talking about local fans
In that instance. If we’re talking spending disposable income, folks that live out of state won’t be coming to Minnesota anyway.
"Go hard. I mean, like relentless. I want a bunch of coaches that coach like their hair’s on fire, and I want a football team that goes for four to six seconds (per play) with relentless effort." OSU Coach Urban Meyer.
The season tickets holders are
22% out of the state, or so they say.
And that’s not counting visiting fans, media and those that travel with the team.
that would be almost 14k
people not coming to mn, not spending their money in mn. 8 times a year. that is a 100k trips into the state of mn, that has got to be at least more then a couple million dollars coming into the state each year that other wise would not.
Will the Real Thor Please Stand Up ... ?
by the Real Thor on Jan 24, 2012 4:10 PM CST up reply actions
Not to mention
People spend money on things they’re passionate about. They typically don’t spend money just to spend money. If a family spends X dollars on Vikings games and related activities, its because they’re passionate about the Vikings. If you take away that passion, you will alter their spending habits and decision making processes. They’re not going to automatically shift X dollars to other Minnesota-based businesses.
Most families with season tickets spend enough on tickets and game-day related activities to fund a nice vacation. But they chose to spend the money on the Vikings because they love the Vikings. Once the Vikings are gone, they magically have the funds to go to Disney World. Or Cancun, or Vail, or wherever.
I'd add Iowa
north and south dakota, and lets not forget that huge viking guy is from toronto (been coming to vikings games for something like 20+ years) all of those dollars would evaporate from minneapolis and MN. I don’t have the figures, but they make up a pretty big chunk of the Vikings fan base. we can argue all day about the entertainment dollars being spent on something else, but the dollars brought into the state by outstate fans can not be replaced if the Vikes move.
Will the Real Thor Please Stand Up ... ?
by the Real Thor on Jan 24, 2012 3:44 PM CST up reply actions
This is your bias speaking
You have to consider that any spending around these new entertainment areas would be spending directly taken away from other entertainment areas, and therefore their tax revenue is negligible.
The entertainment dollar is not a zero sum game, my friend.
filbert said...
…due to the opportunity for additional development around the site that would increase property values around a site that is currently not doing anything, put people to work in the restaurant and entertainment industry with new hotels, restaurants, etc providing addtional income taxes to the state, and parking revenue to the team.
I think this gets at the core of the issue here. If they allow Zygi to build a stadium in Arden Hills and develop the site, he stands to make a sweet profit. This is what has the Minneapolis Downtown business leaders shitting their pants. First, they lose out on a stadium on their own turf, and the residual financial benefits it brings in the form of construction contracts, jobs and property values. Secondly, it creates an alternative destination for the public to spend their money at, there by undermining the status of downtown Minneapolis as a destination where people part with their money. It threatens shopping, entertainment, hotels and convention center business.
You don't tug on Superman's cape
You don't spit into the wind
You don't pull the mask of the Spiderman
And you don't trash talk about him
by REVENGE4WEBB on Jan 24, 2012 6:17 PM CST up reply actions
...amd Minneapolis will do anything to block that from happening.
the greedy fock faces.
You don't tug on Superman's cape
You don't spit into the wind
You don't pull the mask of the Spiderman
And you don't trash talk about him
by REVENGE4WEBB on Jan 24, 2012 6:18 PM CST up reply actions
This is certainly part of it.
If they allow Zygi to build a stadium in Arden Hills and develop the site, he stands to make a sweet profit.
But that’s not why the no new tax crowd is blocking Arden Hills. But yes, MAFIA RAWRRRRRRRR!
And who is really behind that?
You don't tug on Superman's cape
You don't spit into the wind
You don't pull the mask of the Spiderman
And you don't trash talk about him
by REVENGE4WEBB on Jan 24, 2012 6:37 PM CST up reply actions
Ah...so the vast conspiracy deepens!
I hope you have red strings tying all this together in your basement. Are the “no public money for stadiums ever” legislators also taken in by the Mafia?
This is about location. Are you even from Minnesota?
You don't tug on Superman's cape
You don't spit into the wind
You don't pull the mask of the Spiderman
And you don't trash talk about him
by REVENGE4WEBB on Jan 24, 2012 6:44 PM CST up reply actions
Yup, NW Minnesota.
Live in WI now but am back to the state approx 12-20 times a year because of MN sports/seeing friends and family. And I stay plugged into what’s going on because I still consider Minnesota my home.
So you are clearly noy from the metro area.....same thing ;0
You don't tug on Superman's cape
You don't spit into the wind
You don't pull the mask of the Spiderman
And you don't trash talk about him
by REVENGE4WEBB on Jan 24, 2012 6:55 PM CST up reply actions
Yea...
…see, you don’t have to be from the metro to get politics. You can pretend otherwise all you want, but in the meantime you keep saying “this is the way it is” without ever actually backing that up with anything. If you want to convince people you’re right, it often helps to defend your assertions with more than “I’m right”.
You just want to argue with people and believe that
this is justy about a snag in the political process. I think you are naive to what has been transpiring for quite some time.
BTW, I didn’t realize that people from Eastern North Dakota or Southern Upper Peninsula considered themselves so attached to the Great State of Minneapolis.
You don't tug on Superman's cape
You don't spit into the wind
You don't pull the mask of the Spiderman
And you don't trash talk about him
by REVENGE4WEBB on Jan 24, 2012 7:08 PM CST up reply actions
If I'm naive, then spell out what has been happening.
All you’ve done thus far is say the same things over and over at such a high level as to be pointless.
I believe that this is more than a snag in the process, but I don’t see the “business” side of the issue as the sole cause. And I’m pushing back because I’d like to hear your thoughts, not bumper sticker platitudes.
"Honk if you are Eastern North Dakota"
You don't tug on Superman's cape
You don't spit into the wind
You don't pull the mask of the Spiderman
And you don't trash talk about him
by REVENGE4WEBB on Jan 24, 2012 7:39 PM CST up reply actions
It's not a snag
There are sincere and strongly held positions both against any new taxes and against any subsidy. Those are the main obstacles.
There are also less sincerely held objections on those lines that could be moved with pressure that isn’t there because it’s AH and not MPLS, but that’s secondary.
I'm live in Minneapolis
Sed to work in politics, and have good friends in politics. You?
But you're still only looking at direct impact
What’s really hard to quantify is how many tourists, conventions and businesses come here because Minneapolis is on the map as an NFL city that’s highlighted on TV every week of the football season.
You don't know that
And I don’t know that.
So...
Your argument is based on an economic impact that no one can quantify and would need to equal $10 million a year to make up the difference between player’s salary taxes and the cost of borrowing for a stadium. That sir, is quite the strong argument.
Well,
That number is based on proposed stadium costs, current borrowing rates, and over thirty years of economic study on publicly funded stadiums.
what studies?
no I really am curius? do they take into account the money brought into texas by teh Superbowl there? how about the projected revenue at the meadowlands for that super bowl? the metrodome will never see an other Superbowl. a new stadium could (and should) get a Super Bowl, as well as be a host for the Big Ten Football Championship, and see other sporting events (like a host sight for at least one World Cup game next time they are in the US. there has been talk of a MLS expansion into MN, a new Stadium could be a home for them as well (the Metrodome will not be considered for any of these).
notice I am refering only to the Metrodome, and not to the metrodome site.
do any of those studies look at those numbers or are they only looking at the ticket sales at the existing stadiums? as that is very shortsited when there are possiblilities for revenue generating events beyond just one tenent that simply do not exist a the currant sight.
Will the Real Thor Please Stand Up ... ?
by the Real Thor on Jan 24, 2012 4:18 PM CST up reply actions
Tell that to the local hotels, restaurants, etc. There is a reason the city doesn’t want to see the team move from Minneapolis to Arden Hills and its not about the tax money…
The Green Bay Packers...Putting bad coaches out of their misery since 2010
Exactly
There’s a reason that Minneapolis is playing hardball to keep the Vikings in Minneapolis. Follow the money, and you’ll find out why.
yep.
You don't tug on Superman's cape
You don't spit into the wind
You don't pull the mask of the Spiderman
And you don't trash talk about him
by REVENGE4WEBB on Jan 24, 2012 6:19 PM CST up reply actions
Which is why when Seattle built it's stadium
(The kingdom made ours look svelt) they used a tax on the hotels and restaurants in the city to help pay for it. I know Minneapolis doesn’t have the tourism that Seattle does but it makes sense to hit the people who are going to reap the biggest benifit.
The Vikes aren't in a remodeling or reconstruction they are in a burn the place down and start praying they don't mimic the Lions rebuilding process.
well I wouldn't say the fat lady is singing but she is gargling the salt water.
Dayton is kinda pissing me off. He makes bold statements and then relentlessly returns to his jellyfish form. It’s kind of amazing actually maybe he has a dissociative disorder or something. Honestly, other than people getting their panties in a twist what’s was wrong with the Arden Hills site?
The Vikes aren't in a remodeling or reconstruction they are in a burn the place down and start praying they don't mimic the Lions rebuilding process.
What's wrong with Arden Hills?
It isn’t Minneapolis. And Minneapolis has their schlongs so far up Dayton’s hoo-hah he can taste the IDS building.
I was going with 'not politically viable'
but yeah, that works, too. :)
"Go hard. I mean, like relentless. I want a bunch of coaches that coach like their hair’s on fire, and I want a football team that goes for four to six seconds (per play) with relentless effort." OSU Coach Urban Meyer.
The Public
is what is wrong with Arden Hills. There is no source of local funding, so the plan comes up $300 million short. How is that not a major problem?
The original Arden Hills plan has a source of local funding
However, the politicians refuse to allow it to be used. The legislature has the power to allow Ramsey county to raise taxes without a public referendum. If the legislature were willing to suspend that requirement, as they did for the Twins stadium, then there would be a source of local funding. Hence the “not politically viable” label.
again
why this is not on Dayton, lest we all forget he was all set to call a special session to vote on said referendum when Sellers and Koch reared theyir ugly mugs and said “waaaah, waaaah, no. sniffle, sniffle.”
Will the Real Thor Please Stand Up ... ?
by the Real Thor on Jan 24, 2012 4:20 PM CST up reply actions
It's not a political reality that it could pass
There aren’t the votes there for it. There aren’t the votes there for any plan, actually.
"Go hard. I mean, like relentless. I want a bunch of coaches that coach like their hair’s on fire, and I want a football team that goes for four to six seconds (per play) with relentless effort." OSU Coach Urban Meyer.
It requires new taxes
And the republican majorities in both houses of the legislature are opposed to any new tax.
You keep making that blanket statement
But it is pretty deceptive.
The Legislature will consider shifting funds from one program to another, as well as cutting out programs to pay for it, as well as increase spending if the revenue increase.
Emmer, a stadium proponent, would have been elected Governor if not for that turncoat Republican Horner, and he would have jumped on the chance to build a new facility. Maybe by taking funds from that arts and cultural slush fund or whatever…
by liveforadrenaline on Jan 24, 2012 11:16 AM CST up reply actions
No, that's wrong
The local portion of the funding requires new taxes. That’s right there in the Vikings plan.
The state portion may not. They could cut things and shift them around, although that’s pretty unlikely too given that they did all that last year during the shut down. It’s much more likely that the state portion comes from expanded gaming of one sort or another.
But the reason Arden Hills doesn’t work is the new taxes required for the local contribution.
Grime, you are obviously not even from Minnesota.
You don't tug on Superman's cape
You don't spit into the wind
You don't pull the mask of the Spiderman
And you don't trash talk about him
by REVENGE4WEBB on Jan 24, 2012 6:20 PM CST up reply actions
Why Isn't Anyone Advertising this isn't the Viking's stadium?
I don’t know that it would make a difference, and it has been alluded to and mentioned a bit. But neither the Vikings nor other stadium proponent seem to be emphasizing enough that a new stadium will not be owned by Zygi nor the Vikings. No one is giving Zygi or the Vikings anything. In fact, the opposite is true.
Imagine if you’re a real estate investor. A wealthy individual with a stable, well-funded income stream approaches you and says “I need a new place to live. The only places I’m finding that suit my needs require a long-distance, expensive relocation. I’d really rather stay here in town. If you build a facility that meets my needs, I’ll fund 40% of the construction cost and sign a 40 year lease. Oh, and by the way, I only need to use the facility 3% of the year so you can rent it out to other tenants the other 97% of the time. But wait, there’s more. In addition to my rent, I’ll kick in another $30 million per year.”
If you think about, it’s the Vikings/NFL that are subsidizing the state.
I know, I’m whacked in the head.
by a951racer on Jan 24, 2012 11:07 AM CST reply actions 1 recs
You are only whacked in the head
If you use Indianapolis as your model.
The Colts pay $250,000 a year to use the new stadium. The city/county governments are now losing $30+ million a year on the ownership/maintenance of the stadium.
Obviously the politicos screwed up on that deal…
by liveforadrenaline on Jan 24, 2012 11:11 AM CST up reply actions
You are not whacked
And that really is the right way to think about it.
What
would you suggest filling the new stadium with on the 10 days a year the Vikings weren’t playing there? And how would these new opportunities compare to what we can already fill the Metrodome with? And would these new opportunities justify $650 million in additional spending (much more if you include interest on borrowed money)?
You're really asking the wrong question
This is much more akin to whether you want city parks or public art or festivals. It costs something to have a franchise. If you want one, then you have to pay for it whether the numbers all add up or not.
Of course
City parks, public art, and festivals don’t cost $30 million a year. But I suppose that doesn’t support your argument. City parks, public art, and festivals, are also non-profit and owned by the people, not for-profit and owned by an out-of-state real-estate developer. But I suppose that doesn’t support your argument.
yes, the difference is in the profit for the owner
But I really don’t see how that matters. The stadium is still a public good that may be worth investing in for cultural, entertainment and aesthetic reasons.
How much were the subsidies for the Mall of America?
The difference
is that people are trying to argue the economic benefits of a stadium when the only real economic benefits go directly into Zygi’s pockets. Want to argue that we should spend $30 million (while billions in debt) to build a stadium for cultural and entertainment purposes? Go ahead. Don’t argue economics – its dishonest.
Okay, fine
There is no economic benefit to build a new stadium. But isn’t there a negative economic impact when a business leaves town that provides $20 million a year just in tax revenue to the state coffers?
How will the state make that revenue up?
"Go hard. I mean, like relentless. I want a bunch of coaches that coach like their hair’s on fire, and I want a football team that goes for four to six seconds (per play) with relentless effort." OSU Coach Urban Meyer.
There not being
an economic impact of a new stadium takes that into account. Taxes on player’s salaries account for roughly $20 million a year. A new stadium would cost $30 million per year. The out-of-state revenue would need to equal $10 million a year, or $1.25 in million in taxes per game (or an additional $25 million in taxable revenue assuming a 5% rate) to even break even. It doesn’t.
Look – I want the Vikings around as much as anyone. But pretending that this is a slam dunk for taxpayers, or that this is about anything besides lining Zygi’s pockets with more money, is dishonest.
Why does it have to be out of state revenue? Are you ASSUMING that people of MN would just automatically shift that money to another source within MN? I think that is a terribly flawed argument.
The Green Bay Packers...Putting bad coaches out of their misery since 2010
Well, to defend DMac
That’s actually correct. Disposable income is disposable income, and people will spend it. I think the fallacy in this argument is that it’s just assumed people will spend that money where they live. If you’re talking $40-50, sure, I agree.
But if you’re talking a few hundred or a couple thousand for season tickets, people would be very much inclined to go on a trip and spend that disposable income elsewhere.
I agree they’ll spend the money, but to say they’ll automatically spend it where they live is flawed.
"Go hard. I mean, like relentless. I want a bunch of coaches that coach like their hair’s on fire, and I want a football team that goes for four to six seconds (per play) with relentless effort." OSU Coach Urban Meyer.
Its not how I work. I don’t have some pile of money sitting around designated as disposable. If i choose to buy a ticket to a game its being taken out of some savings account. Its either a coming from a vacation I could take or maybe just my savings but its highly unlikely that the money was going to be spent no matter what. I think its a very flawed theory to assume money spent on tickets would automatically be reinvested.
For a season ticket holder, we are talking thousands of dollars I’ve heard people on the radio in New England (when the strike was happening) contemplating, “do I pull the money from a vacation fund for a season that might not happen” or do I take a wonderful, memorable trip with my family. When we look at the kind of money that goes into season ticket holders I could easily see it going into savings for kids college, vacation, or even just retirement.
The Green Bay Packers...Putting bad coaches out of their misery since 2010
No, that's not right
It’s wrong to assume that people will spend all of their disposable income regardless of the options available to them.
You’re also right that location may vary.
how much in revenue
would 14k out of staters’ generate 8 times a year? 10 if they also attend the preseason games? add into that amount the number of people who would simply choose to leave the state to spend that disposable income (remember our state is cold in the winter). lets not forget that we are not only talking about income tax’s but also sales tax’s on merchandise that is specifically related to the Vikings? that would no longer be purchased? and just becase income is disposable does not automatically mean it gets spent. a good portion certainly would, but there is no gaurenty that all of it gets spent.
Will the Real Thor Please Stand Up ... ?
by the Real Thor on Jan 24, 2012 4:26 PM CST up reply actions
There isn’t an economic benefit to building a library either.
The Green Bay Packers...Putting bad coaches out of their misery since 2010
Really?
There is no economic benefit to having an educated public? I also didn’t realize we were building $650 million libraries.
I thought you were talking direct impact…now you are talking indirect, the opens up a whole different can of worms.
The Green Bay Packers...Putting bad coaches out of their misery since 2010
No.
It doesn’t. Every economic study of publicly funded stadiums (you, by guys with PHDs in economics) takes into effect all impacts, and none have paid off.
That's an overstatement
And suggests that you haven’t read the studies.
Not that I have, but I’ve read enough summaries of them to know you are overselling the case — both in what’s captured and in how strong the conclusions are.
prove it.
tell us what studies you’ve read, what their conclusions were in detail, and where we can read them for ourselves to see if for ourselves how strong their conclusions are, and if they suffer from any bias.
Will the Real Thor Please Stand Up ... ?
by the Real Thor on Jan 24, 2012 4:29 PM CST up reply actions
In this day and age tell me how
a library is worth the investment when I can get on Google and get everything I need in 5-10 minutes, for the most part.
"Go hard. I mean, like relentless. I want a bunch of coaches that coach like their hair’s on fire, and I want a football team that goes for four to six seconds (per play) with relentless effort." OSU Coach Urban Meyer.
I didn't realize
we were proposing building any libraries? In fact, many are closing.
We just built one in downtown Minneapolis
We also just built a new Guthrie theater with public money.
By the way…an educated public? You really think public libraries do that much to educate our public. The last time I went to one was to rent my daughter a couple baby books. They are almost useless (except when located at schools) in this day and age…yet no one questions money spend on something like that (plus it adds additional costs for staffing and keeping up to date on the books yet generates basically no income).
The Green Bay Packers...Putting bad coaches out of their misery since 2010
This argument
is stupid and not to the point. The point was that libraries are a publicly owned, relatively cheap commodity. A new stadium that benefits Zygi Wilf hundreds of times more than it does anyone else is not even remotely comparable to a library.
LOL
Nope…not quite.
http://archrecord.construction.com/projects/bts/archives/libraries/08_Minneapolis/default.asp
Central Library, built in 2006, cost over $136 million in tax payer dollars. Thanks for playing but its a VERY comparable example.
The Green Bay Packers...Putting bad coaches out of their misery since 2010
No, actually it's right on point
You were arguing the economic benefit of a library. He countered that there isn’t one, much like you insist that there is no economic benefit to building a new stadium.
There is an economic benefit to an educated public, but in this day and age a library—with it’s overhead, salaries, and annual maintenance, is not economically beneficial, in the grand scheme of things.
"Go hard. I mean, like relentless. I want a bunch of coaches that coach like their hair’s on fire, and I want a football team that goes for four to six seconds (per play) with relentless effort." OSU Coach Urban Meyer.
I don't know about that
Certainly it’s direct economic impact isn’t enough to justify the cost, which is the apples to apples comparison to his argument. So that’s right.
But there might be other cultural and aesthetic value in a library that makes it nonetheless worthwhile.
Kind of like a stadium.
And that's my point
He can’t say ‘you can’t argue economic benefits’ for a stadium and then appear to turn around and do that very thing for a library.
"Go hard. I mean, like relentless. I want a bunch of coaches that coach like their hair’s on fire, and I want a football team that goes for four to six seconds (per play) with relentless effort." OSU Coach Urban Meyer.
The difference
being that a library is publicly owned and the difference in profits with a new stadium benefits Zygi.
This actually works against you...
The library also doesn’t generate a profit…the city will be paying about $5 million to the county to run the library in 2012.
The Green Bay Packers...Putting bad coaches out of their misery since 2010
I don't think wilf owns the stadium does he?
Much like the dome currently, he leases it to play in. So much like the publicly owned library the stadium would also be publicly owned. Or am I wrong in this?
The Vikes aren't in a remodeling or reconstruction they are in a burn the place down and start praying they don't mimic the Lions rebuilding process.
The stadium will be publicly owned too
And the companies that sells books, broadband and database services to the library will profit too.
Oh and
It looks like the company that’s does catering for events at the library is for-profit too.
This is looking more an more like an apt analogy.
Of course
There is also the point that a library only benefits the public (not any private owner) and that libraries don’t cost nearly as much as stadiums (the Central Library is an extreme example).
they buy books
That generates income for private people, and uses the public money to do so.
The Vikes aren't in a remodeling or reconstruction they are in a burn the place down and start praying they don't mimic the Lions rebuilding process.
Nope
Lots of vendors sell things to libraries at a profit. I’m not sure, but I’d bet you can also rent out space in the library for your for-profit events too. (actually, yup, that’s right)
Try again.
Really? A New Library
would have a direct, measurable economic impact???
Say it aint so!!!
by TexasVikesFan on Jan 25, 2012 3:25 AM CST up reply actions
No, that's untrue
And you’re letting your biases show.
There are economic benefits for Mortenson Construction (assuming they will do the building) and their employees. There are economic benefits from other possible surrounding development.
The economics are relevant. Despite your protestations, it’s a close call whether the economics pan out on direct benefits. It depends a ton on the assumptions you make about the interest rate involved and future tax rates.
But it’s just as dishonest to pretend like existing debt matters here. We are talking about borrowing money on bonds (presumably) secured by the new asset that will be built and backed by new dedicated revenue streams to pay them off.
It’s like taking out a mortgage to buy a house. Sure there’s some risk involved, but you’re acquiring an asset that’s supposed to be a more than adequate offset for the new debt, leaving you in pretty much the same financial situation you started with (leaving aside transaction costs). Except here we’re also going to rent out the back yard for enough money to pay the whole mortgage payment, plus whatever we get for renting out the house.
The Metrodome
First, there are only 10 days a year that Vikings are playing there. Which leaves 355 days they are not.
The Metronome is used nearly 300 days out of the year. I believe there are several hundred (yes hundred) college baseball games played there every spring. Sure, these events wouldn’t necessarily move to the new stadium right away. Although many would. But the Metrodome is on its last legs, so its only a matter of time….
There are also many events that would need a facility the size of a stadium, but don’t come to Minnesota because other than its size, the Metrodome doesn’t cut it. Large conventions, trade shows, concerts, etc.
Oh, they will move pretty quick
Given that the metrodome will be torn down pretty quick after the Vikes are in a new facility.
What would you suggest filling the new stadium with on the 10 days a year the Vikings weren’t playing there?
Oh, this is great. This is the part where some knucklehead says “what about all the rock concerts and wrestling matches we get to hold”.
You don't tug on Superman's cape
You don't spit into the wind
You don't pull the mask of the Spiderman
And you don't trash talk about him
by REVENGE4WEBB on Jan 24, 2012 6:23 PM CST up reply actions
BLOW JOB BLOW JOB BLOW JOB BLOW JOB BLOW JOB BLOW JOB
AS IT WAS SAID AFTER DEAN WORMERS SPEACH IN ANIMAL HOUSE
by THORS BLOOD THIRSTY HAMMER on Jan 24, 2012 11:14 AM CST reply actions
Has there been any official response by the Vikes yet?
Though Im dreading what might be said.
Gentlemen! You can't fight in here, this is a war room!
If I were Zygi
I’d contact Governor Dayton and tell him the following: “You wanna play hardball? I’ve got your hardball right here, buddy. You have 72 hours to either shit or get off the can. We’re officially taking the Metrodome site off of our table, screw you and your opinions of whether it’s the best site or not. At the end of those 72 hours, if there is not a tentative deal in place I will be shutting down all of my stadium building operations, firing all nonessential personnel and then contacting the NFL to begin sales proceedings. We will also be shutting down the draft for this year. I have instructed Rick Spielman to bundle all of our draft picks and trade them for future picks to ensure that wherever the team ends up, they will have a helluva inaugural draft. I will be heading back home to Jersey and will never set foot in this state again. The sale will be conducted elsewhere. Buh-bye. You, sir, will go down in the annals of Minnesota history as the governor who kicked the Vikings out of the state. Good luck scraping the dried eggs off you house for the rest of your life.”
You
just did a great job of summing up why Zygi is an ass****, tyrant owner. He is fleecing the public while making threats to move OUR FRANCHISE, and all you people are so scared you’re dropping to your knees in an instant. He offered $600 million for a complex just like the one in Arden Hills in 2006; now he is only offering $300 million. It is obvious he is using the move to LA to extort the public for as much money as possible.
It's not 'our' franchise
If you want to remain intellectually honest throughout your argument, then the Vikings are a business. He owns that business, much like the owner of Best Buy owns his.
If Wilf wants to relocate his business to an area that is more economically friendly for him to make a profit, he will.
"Go hard. I mean, like relentless. I want a bunch of coaches that coach like their hair’s on fire, and I want a football team that goes for four to six seconds (per play) with relentless effort." OSU Coach Urban Meyer.
And just like the owners of any other business
He may use the threat of moving to get subsidies from the local government.
hrm do you think 3M gets subsidies?
I do.
The Vikes aren't in a remodeling or reconstruction they are in a burn the place down and start praying they don't mimic the Lions rebuilding process.
fon't forget target.
also happens in other states too. and then there are the cases where private biz’ use legislators to invoke eminent domain just so they can build a new facility, when the private owners didn’t want to sell the land. government does more to help big business then it does the public at large. Still, the New Stadium will provide more benefit to the public at large then many of the other things the Gov could and will do to benefit Big Business.
Will the Real Thor Please Stand Up ... ?
by the Real Thor on Jan 24, 2012 5:01 PM CST up reply actions
Of course
You neglect the fact that there are no concrete plans for the LA stadium, and that it is highly unlikely the NFL would allow him to up and move a team in one of the most penetrated TV markets in the country. Zygi doesn’t have the ability to just “up and leave” if he wants. Its an incredibly intricate process. You also don’t mention that its likely the Vikings would be obligated to play in the Dome next year regardless if a deal gets done or not.
They could accelerate the process in LA very quickly if there was a viable team ready to move. They are taking their time now because they don’t have a team lined up.
The Green Bay Packers...Putting bad coaches out of their misery since 2010
doesn't stop
the Vikings form negotiating a lease agreement directly with USC. 20mil over three years or so would be a number that they would have to consider.
Will the Real Thor Please Stand Up ... ?
by the Real Thor on Jan 24, 2012 5:02 PM CST up reply actions
Certainly.
But as Gates noted in his SB Nation Minnesota post just now, they’d have to announce a deal ASAP for it to work. My point has always been more “there are more steps to moving to LA then just picking up and moving” and it looks like the Vikings are not in a position to complete those steps for next season.
That's only for a move for this upcoming season.
You don't tug on Superman's cape
You don't spit into the wind
You don't pull the mask of the Spiderman
And you don't trash talk about him
by REVENGE4WEBB on Jan 24, 2012 6:26 PM CST up reply actions
There are more options than LA
"Go hard. I mean, like relentless. I want a bunch of coaches that coach like their hair’s on fire, and I want a football team that goes for four to six seconds (per play) with relentless effort." OSU Coach Urban Meyer.
Well, Zygi could just
contact the NFL and ask them to schedule the Vikings to play 16 road games next season. Nobody seems to have thought of that. I’m sure no team would object to get an extra home game vs. the Vikes next year. That would give them an extra year to find a (temporary?) home in, for instance, San Antonio, TX where the Alamo Dome is waiting for a tenant.
I've thought of it. I've also wondered why they'd choose to do that instead of take a 1 year lease.
Throwing away a season and losing all that income (because they’ll lose a ton of money) doesn’t strike me as a move that is on the top of the list for the Vikings. I’d also wonder why the NFL would be excited to support the plan when the Vikings aren’t the only team who can end up in LA.
If the Metrodome won't give them a 1-year lease
(but only a 3 or 5 year lease, for instance) they can be forced to go on the road all season. They’ll still have income from the road games (and their part of the TV revenue), but yes, it’ll hurt them financially. It depends on how serious Wilf is about this whole farce.
They'd need the NFL to sign off too.
And maybe the other teams. And in 3 weeks time this has to be done.
Exactly. Ultimately its HIS team, he can do with them whatever he pleases. He could alienate the fanbase by pulling that kind of a move but the fact is that its not MN team its his team. Its hard to think about your team like that though.
The Green Bay Packers...Putting bad coaches out of their misery since 2010
ROFLMFAO
You’re kidding, right? Since he has NEVER said what I just typed how could you be so stupid as to use it as justification that he is a tyrant? Quite the contrary, in fact; Zygi HASN’T been forceful enough! No wonder this issue is so confusing to some of you people…you’re morons! Nearly everything you stated in your post is incorrect. He is putting up 450 million last time i checked, not 300 million; and the franchise is not yours…as much as you seem to hate the idea, HE owns the damn team!
So
Zygi’s PR guy didn’t say that other cities had talked to the Vikings about moving? This will end my day on the Norseman; whenever ROFLMFAO is used in a conversation and I am the one getting called a moron, well that’s when I call it quits.
Your arguing side that is not that popular
And while I commend you on backing up your beliefs not everything you are saying is unbiased as you think it is, just as much of what anyone says is unbiased by their own personal views.
After reading everything you’ve written I think I have an idea of what you are trying to get across. However, maybe you can spell it out, because it’s coming accross very anti stadium which means you are for the Vikings moving out of town. I may be wrong in this conclusion though.
The Vikes aren't in a remodeling or reconstruction they are in a burn the place down and start praying they don't mimic the Lions rebuilding process.
also, that statement about the Vikings
putting up 600 mil towards a stadium a few years ago, is nto factually correct, the cost of that stadium was supposed to be around 600 mi,, but the state said no because it was open air. that is why all new proposals all run towards 1 billion dollars. a roof adds a lot onto the cost, and then inflation also reared its ugly head.
Will the Real Thor Please Stand Up ... ?
by the Real Thor on Jan 24, 2012 5:06 PM CST up reply actions
I'm going to say its not over til the fat lady sings
Who knows what Dayton is doing but there are some opposed to Dayton’s Dome site
http://www.startribune.com/politics/blogs/137971498.html
Remember, remember the seventh of November.
I'm not cheering for a guy
Who is using geographic insinuations to hide the fact that his caucus is 100% against any new taxes, and new taxes would be required under the Arden Hills plan.
He's mostly using partisan politic insinuations over geographic, but I get your point
I’m surprised he didn’t say that the Mayor of Minneapolis, R.T. Ryback, is also the Vice-Chairman of the Democratic National Committee…
by liveforadrenaline on Jan 24, 2012 2:32 PM CST up reply actions
Dayton has now
set himself as the fall guy if the Vikes leave before the 2012 season. Issuing an ultimatum to a tenant without a future lease, who can make more $ in another location, is a case of negotiating in bad faith and is bad tactics. I hope he is prepared for the fallout if the answer in the Vikings reply to his ultimatum is “Leave It!”
It is an option Gov.Dayton has approved.
Your fantasy football expert since Jerry Rice's rookie year.
That's absurd
Dayton isn’t the one who makes the Metrodome the only site that can happen this year. That’s on the Minneapolis City Council (for Linden Ave) and the no-new-taxes republicans in the legislature (for Arden Hills).
I did not say Gov. is the only one to blame.
I said he has set himself up as the potential fall guy. Deserved or not. Jeez.
Issuing the “take it or leave it” ultimatum has left him vulnerable to some potentially bad publicity.
Your fantasy football expert since Jerry Rice's rookie year.
He's only the fall guy...
…if you read what he said as an ultimatum instead of what it was, a statement about what is possible IN THIS SESSION of the legislature.
Well......
If the Vikes said they won’t sign a temporary lease w/o a new deal in place (that’s reasonable from a business standpoint); and a lease must be signed before the 2012 season…. what would you call it?
Your fantasy football expert since Jerry Rice's rookie year.
Then he's the messenger of what the legislature would/would not do.
He is a governor, not a king. If this is what can maybe pass there isn’t anything he can do about it. Plus, that temporary lease statement was made pre-this announcement.
Fine. I just don't feel like playing semantics with this.
The Gov. is NOT a messenger of the legislature. They are separate branches of our state government. The leaders of the house and senate know how to speak for themselves. As you say, he is not a king. This is jr. high civics.
About the temporary lease situation, it can indeed be changed. But why must the Vikings continuously help Minneapolis wait to get their ducks in a row for a less profitable option. Minneapolis has no plan for a dome site. The ineptitude of any Minneapolis site planners is getting ridiculous. Where were they when Ramsay Counted stepped up?
Your fantasy football expert since Jerry Rice's rookie year.
It's not semantics. Words have actual meanings.
The Gov. is NOT a messenger of the legislature. They are separate branches of our state government. The leaders of the house and senate know how to speak for themselves. As you say, he is not a king. This is jr. high civics.
This is an entirely different, and completely valid, point. Why not just say that instead of twisting ultimatum to mean something it doesn’t?
But why must the Vikings continuously help Minneapolis wait to get their ducks in a row for a less profitable option. Minneapolis has no plan for a dome site. The ineptitude of any Minneapolis site planners is getting ridiculous. Where were they when Ramsay Counted stepped up?
Your question is a good one. But the true issue with Arden Hills is with the Legislature, not Minneapolis. If the Legislature was so inclined they could waive the referendum requirement and get the process going in AH right now. As of now, they are not so inclined. As a result, the choices narrow and the mess that is Minneapolis comes in to play. And the answer seems to be mostly, well, they are the last choice left if the other options don’t work.
Their Legislative session started today
They haven’t had time yet to distribute name tags, let alone pass a bill.
by liveforadrenaline on Jan 24, 2012 2:02 PM CST up reply actions
They also had the option during a potential special session.
They passed. Could they have had a sudden change of heart? Sure. But why now and not then?
I’m not saying it can’t happen. I’m saying it doesn’t seem likely.
Not just passed
But made clear that they would convene to consider a bill that included new taxes.
Except all the name tags were handed out in 2010
when the Tea Baggers were voted in. this Nov, you and I have a chance to rectify the indignities foisted on MN by the Tea Baggers, but it won’t help the Stadium issue this session (which is the same group of legislators as we had for the last 2 years). The legislators nixed any tax in Arden Hills without a referendum which means that can’t be done until nov. I say, Ramsey county, go on grow a pair and put the referendum on the ballot to spite the Tea Baggers and the MN Mafia, and we can all pray to what ever gods we believe in that it passes, then the Metrodump (Great Inflatable Toilette) can die the way it should. If the referendum passes then the Vikes get their stadium, if it doesn’t then, well every one losses and the Tea Baggers can rot in hell, but they are going there any way so no diff.
Will the Real Thor Please Stand Up ... ?
by the Real Thor on Jan 24, 2012 2:49 PM CST up reply actions
My my my...
I doubt any real Thor would be crying in their grog and getting all pissy when the State and local Gubmints don’t solve all these nasty stadium problems…
Most likely he would either build it himself or go pillage and plunder a nearby one… maybe like, um, in Green Bay?
by liveforadrenaline on Jan 24, 2012 3:04 PM CST up reply actions
Seriously
There are people on this site who have no problem with the Tea Party movement, and even support it. There are also people on this site who support the Occupy movement.
Name calling of either won’t be tolerated. Knock it off. You can disagree with a political point of view without using a derogatory term that has no business on this site.
Got it?
"Go hard. I mean, like relentless. I want a bunch of coaches that coach like their hair’s on fire, and I want a football team that goes for four to six seconds (per play) with relentless effort." OSU Coach Urban Meyer.
by Ted Glover on Jan 24, 2012 3:26 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
And the Vikings stated position
Is the only thing taken as a given outside his control, not the position of the Minneapolis City Council (won’t sell Linden Ave land) and the republican majorities in both houses (won’t vote for new taxes)?
Nevermind that
He did not issue that ultimatum in any way.
An ultimatum is "Build at the Dome, that's your only choice, ever."
What he said was “the Dome is the only option that can pass the legislature this session”.
Not even close to the same thing. They key is “this session” and the fact that he took pains to point out that it was the only option right now because it’s what can pass right now, not because it was the only option they’d allow.
If you’re confused I suggest you Google the definition of ultimatum.
I think it is Dayton who is confused
A House member will introduce a Stadium bill and then the House will vote on it.
The Senate will then vote on it.
If Dayton doesn’t like the bill and if he vetoes it then his neck will be on the line… I doubt if he has enough legislative votes to override a veto and go a different direction…
by liveforadrenaline on Jan 24, 2012 1:47 PM CST up reply actions
And he hasn't said he'd veto either.
Like I said above, I’m not sure why he chose to speak for the legislature. With luck he’s proven wrong. But as of now what he’s saying makes sense as the likely position given the past behaviors of the parties involved.
I don't know where this veto talk comes from
There is zero chance of a veto.
The struggle at the moment is for the Vikes, the governor and the legislative sponsors to get a bill that will pass in both houses.
It’s a real question mark whether that can happen, but as things stands, it sure looks like Dayton would sign anything they send him.
Fair point
But as is, the Vikings aren’t on board, and will reduce their contribution ‘significantly’ I think the word is that Bagley used. Zellers (and Koch, at the time I beleive) said that if the Vikes dropped their level of contributions, the Metrodome site wasn’t even workable.
"Go hard. I mean, like relentless. I want a bunch of coaches that coach like their hair’s on fire, and I want a football team that goes for four to six seconds (per play) with relentless effort." OSU Coach Urban Meyer.
But he's not making a statement that the Dome site WILL work...
He’s simply saying “look, IMO the Dome site is it for the session and is the only thing that COULD work given the current positions of everyone in the legislature, the city, etc.”
Not disagreeing with you
I’m just saying that the differences between the state, the city, and the Vikings are too great to overcome, thereby making it unworkable.
"Go hard. I mean, like relentless. I want a bunch of coaches that coach like their hair’s on fire, and I want a football team that goes for four to six seconds (per play) with relentless effort." OSU Coach Urban Meyer.
Many stadiums have gone through this same stuff
Because so much money is involved, it takes Superman strength to get states, counties, cities, stadium owners/commissions, and NFL owners on the same page.
I’m actually somewhat positive that things are moving forward.
by liveforadrenaline on Jan 24, 2012 1:59 PM CST up reply actions
We already know that "significantly" means
At least $70 mil. We don’t know if it means more than that.
From Wikipedia
An ultimatum (Latin: the last one) is a demand whose fulfillment is requested in a specified period of time and which is backed up by a threat to be followed through in case of noncompliance.
It is not ever situation, it is a specified time period.
Your fantasy football expert since Jerry Rice's rookie year.
?
He’s not saying “deal or else”. He is not saying “deal now or else.” He’s not saying this is the only option ever. He’s not giving a threat if the option isn’t workable. He’s saying “right now, it only looks like one option might work.” He isn’t saying it will work, should work, or anything else.
It’s a statement of the facts as he sees them. That is much different than an ultimatum which includes an intent to threaten.
Take it or leave it.
Are you not keeping up? Take this crappy, unverified, can’t put numbers to deal now or leave.
The Vikes need a lease soon. They and their opponents and the NFL need to make 2012 plans. Yes, they can sign a one year lease with no long term deal. The Vikings said they would not do that. Dayton had to know that. I did. That is a de facto ultimatum whether you characterize it that way or not. In my awesome opinion. ;-P
Your fantasy football expert since Jerry Rice's rookie year.
Then it is only an ultimatum if you start assuming things.
Things that don’t make a lot of logical sense. You’re welcome to do so, it’s your opinion. But it still isn’t an ultimatum. Calling your assuming proof of a “de facto” ultimatum is just more twisting of the meaning of a word.
Dayton is not ginving an ultimatum
the vikings gave the ultimateum about the lease, Dayton responded by saying this is the only workable deal today. after nov that might change, hopefully will change, but there is nothing Dayton can do about the current crop of Legislators. he is not allowed to dictate legislation to them, only sign or veto the bills they pass onto him. he is relaying to the Vikings what they will, and will not pass to him. it is the Legislator’s that are handing out Ultimatums, not Dayton.
Will the Real Thor Please Stand Up ... ?
by the Real Thor on Jan 24, 2012 2:56 PM CST up reply actions
Wow
He didn’t say take it or leave it, and even if he did, that isn’t a threat.
I don’t think you are really trying here.
You are correct. Dayton did not say those words.
He said the Metrdome site is the only site viable for 2012. Which basically means take it or leave it means the same thing.
Your fantasy football expert since Jerry Rice's rookie year.
In so many words, he did say that
Arden Hills—not a possibility politically.
Basilica—ditto
Shakopee—ditto
Farmer’s Market—ditto
So that LEAVES the Metrodome site. The VIkings can TAKE that site and try to work out a deal, or not. But there are no other options. This is what Bagley had to say when I asked him about the Minneapolis plan in May, and their opinion hasn’t changed:
With Minneapolis, it was a late breaking development. They briefed the Wilf’s on their proposal, and it’s not viable because it was not a collaborative proposal. It was something they put together, and it’s a broader tax package to resolve the Target Center renovation issue, it would lock in the Convention Center, it would provide some property tax relief, so it was a package deal for the city of Minneapolis that we were a part of but were never involved in the development of the proposal. It was not a collaborative deal, it was not a negotiated package, and it was not how you put a deal together. The way you put a deal together is a partnership. You sit down, and you collaboratively put together a design, a (financial) package, and you negotiate the elements of how it looks, who runs it, who operates it, who covers the cost of operating, what kind of events go through there, all those things need to be negotiated, like the Twins deal was with Hennepin County. The Minneapolis proposal didn’t meet any of those criteria; we were briefed on Friday and they had a press conference to announce it on Monday. We appreciate the fact that Minneapolis was willing to invest in a stadium and come up with a solution, but it was not a collaborative effort and it was not a viable proposal.
WILL the VIkings look to work with the state and Minneapolis? It remains to be seen. Unless something changes dramatically, I would say no.
"Go hard. I mean, like relentless. I want a bunch of coaches that coach like their hair’s on fire, and I want a football team that goes for four to six seconds (per play) with relentless effort." OSU Coach Urban Meyer.
I'm not saying that isn't the logical outcome.
Of course it is. But Odin wants to assume there is a threat there an use that assumption as the reason to justify twisting words. This situation is messy enough. There is no need for making stuff up. Just say what you mean. Don’t be a politician. =)
If you want to talk about assumptions.O.K.
Your assumption about Mpls having an easier path to passage is misleading. AH only needs the state. Mpls. needs the state after it passes the city council. The council might be a tougher vote. That’s two bodies to pass it vs. one.
Your assumption that the AH site is dead is misleading. You block quoted legislator Lanning’s statement further down this page. Lanning does not think t is dead. It can be voted on again. Like you said elsewhere, Dayton is not a King. The AH site is only mostly dead. For now.
You gave a misleading definition of ultimatum and misconstrued it’s meaning to your advantage. I, at least, referenced mine. You kinda did, but it leads me to believe you did not look it up but rather assumed it’s meaning.
I don’t mind you calling me out. I enjoy arguing with you. Just know that if I find the same in you, I will return the favor.
I may have confused you and amiller92 here on some points, but I don’t think so. If I did, I apologize. Both of you think alike on many of the stadium issues. But I assume you are different people.
Your fantasy football expert since Jerry Rice's rookie year.
Lanning also doesn't explain how he will convince his caucus to back it.
Look, I’m not saying that Dayton will ultimately prove to be right. Target Field came out of nowhere and I wouldn’t be surprised if the solution to the Vikings stadium did too (either as plan no one has been talking of or a left for dead plan come back to life). I’ve just been calling you out about characterizing Dayton’s statement.
I’ve been trying to suggest that you simply state you point in a way that doesn’t require stretching the meaning of words. Because you often raise good points and it diminishes them when you do that.
You gave a misleading definition of ultimatum and misconstrued it’s meaning to your advantage. I, at least, referenced mine. You kinda did, but it leads me to believe you did not look it up but rather assumed it’s meaning.
No I did not. And I did look it up, just in case, because sometimes I know I use words incorrectly. I’m anal about making sure I’m right about a word before accusing others of misusing it. There was nothing final about what he said. His comments about “in this session” make that clear. There was also no threat in what he said. You could argue it was implied, but you could just as easily see no threat based on your point of view.
And yes, amiller and I are different folks.
No, Lanning did not explain that.
That also does not mean AH is dead. Rybak has not explained how he is passing the funding bill through the city. Dayton has not explained hoe he is passing the $10 mil spending cap exemption through the state.
I too look up a word quite often to make sure I use it correctly. I am glad I am not the only one. I will concede to an implied ultimatum or a veiled threat.
Your fantasy football expert since Jerry Rice's rookie year.
Me too.
I have www.onelook.com pinned to my browser bar just for that very purpose. It’s too easy not to use.
You don't tug on Superman's cape
You don't spit into the wind
You don't pull the mask of the Spiderman
And you don't trash talk about him
by REVENGE4WEBB on Jan 24, 2012 7:15 PM CST up reply actions
Agreed. It isn't dead for sure.
I think it probably is, but that’s mostly because I don’t think he can get his caucus to agree with him. Perhaps some other factor will come into play (threats from the Vikings for instance) or perhaps they’ll decide ideology doesn’t trump the end result.
No city council vote is needed
FOr the dome site. Which is Dayton’s point.
Yes it is.
The vote is to redirect the convention center funds.
From the StarTribune on Jan. 20
“We believe we can get seven votes from the council,” Mayor R.T. Rybak said. “It’s going to be tough.”
Rybak and City Council President Barb Johnson have proposed redirecting existing sales taxes to pay for the local share of a new stadium and want the Legislature to override a requirement that gives voters a say.
Here is the link.
http://m.startribune.com/news/?id=137730878&c=y
It looks like two votes to me.
Your fantasy football expert since Jerry Rice's rookie year.
Also, the logical conclusion of your thought process is not take it or leave it.
It is take it, leave it, or choose to wait. Lots of folks are conflating “choose to wait” with leaving but that is not automatically the case.
No
The other option is that they decide to wait until after the November elections and the group of people are different.
As for whether their view has changed, I heard someone (I think Bagley) on the radio two weeks ago saying that Metrodome site isn’t their preferred site, but they could make it work.
But
They’ve already said they aren’t waiting. Numerous times.
Are they bluffing? We’re about to find out, I think.
"Go hard. I mean, like relentless. I want a bunch of coaches that coach like their hair’s on fire, and I want a football team that goes for four to six seconds (per play) with relentless effort." OSU Coach Urban Meyer.
What they've said
Is that they aren’t signing another lease without significant progress on a stadium.
There’s enough wiggle room in that statement for three blitzing linebackers.
But I don’t think they will decide to wait. I think they will decide to work with the governor on the best Metrodome deal they can get and try to get it passed this year.
Tomorrow will be interesting.
This is not what KARE11 reported on Jan. 2
Bagley says the team will not a sign a short term lease at the dome without a stadium deal locked in.
Here is the link.
http://www.kare11.com/news/article/954085/24/Vikings-future-uncertain-as-Metrodome-lease-expires
A lot less wiggle room here. I could not find a later quote stating they have changed their mind. A possibility. And I really did not look that hard.
Your fantasy football expert since Jerry Rice's rookie year.
I don't want to start a personal attack but...
Every comment DMacAD has made on this blog has been anti-stadium. Most people here want to talk about the vikings games, draft, personnel, etc… I looked up all of his comments and they have all been about the stadium not being built here. No offense intended but it seems kind of strange. This is a Vikings website for Vikings fans, I believe, and maybe I’m just seeing things wrong. Please correct me if I am wrong.
And don't let Ed Kohler in either.
(See earlier stadium thread)
by Lars in SLP on Jan 24, 2012 1:49 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
You’re not wrong
If we can't laugh at ourselves, Packer fans will call us crybabies and we will be forced to kick their tooth in. I really don't want to go to jail (again).
by Alittlemore_cowbell on Jan 24, 2012 1:51 PM CST up reply actions
It's okay to be a fan of the team
but want the Vikes to pay for their own stadium. His point was to argue the benefits of a new stadium from a cultural or historical perspective, and not from a financial one, because his point is that there is no financial benefit to a new stadium.
I have no problem with him advocating his position. I actually applaud and respect it in a lot of ways, because he’s one of the few on this site that believes it. Yet he argued it in a respectful, logical way. I just disagree with him. As long as you’re not a dick, all opinions are welcome here.
And his tone was a far different one than that jackass from last night, who was banned.
"Go hard. I mean, like relentless. I want a bunch of coaches that coach like their hair’s on fire, and I want a football team that goes for four to six seconds (per play) with relentless effort." OSU Coach Urban Meyer.
If that is the case, then Tom Emmer has a point
Take the stadium dollars from the cultural slush fund, er, Legacy fund…
by liveforadrenaline on Jan 24, 2012 2:00 PM CST up reply actions
Why...
thank you Mr. Glover. Its nice to have a respectful discussion.
As to Mr. Sorum’s comments above;
Draft/Personnel wise this off season: I believe many of these points have been enumerated before, but I’ll put on my GM hat (don’t we all wish we had that job!).
Free Agency: Priority 1: I think targeting a WR is a must. Between Bowe, V. Jackson, D. Jackson, and the others, we gotta get one. It would vastly open up our options in the draft. I have a suspicion that Desean Jackson’s stock could drop far this offseason (due to his numerous “issues”) – this situation has the potential to make him a relatively cheap, albeit explosive option. If we could sign him to an incentive-laden contract that made clear we wouldn’t put up with his crap, I’d love it.
Priority 2: Defensive backfield: There are a couple of corners and safeties worth pursuing. If the price is right, we should pull the trigger. Without knowing if Cook will be back and in what form Cedric will return in, along with the abysmal state of our safeties, we need to sign, at minimum, one starting defensive back. As to position changes, I’ve long been an advocate of Winfield at strong safety.
Draft: The draft is obviously hard to predict, as all of our moves hinge on what the Rams do at #2 (damn you Redskins!). If RG III is still around at #3, we shop the hell out of the pick. Best case scenario we get Cleveland to jump up one, still allowing us to grab Kalil/Claiborne (depending on what the Rams do) and securing an extra first-rounder.
Draft Dream Scenario: Rams go Kalil at #2, we get the Brown’s #4 and #16 so they can secure the RG III pick, then trade the #4 for a boatload for a team way high on Blackmon (ala Julio Jones last year) and pick up a later first rounder and second rounder, and an extra first next year. We then use our first pick on Reiff/Martin, Second on best available DT/CB/WR, and get plenty of OL/DB from there on out. Is this scenario realistic? Probably not. Do we maybe deserve it? I think so!
Been hyperventilating since this broke yesterday
Usually the first reports that break don’t present an accurate perspective, at least that’s my hope.
Maybe Zygi can influence the, as yet, unfiled legislation. Perhaps he can get an up or down vote on Arden Hills first. If that fails a new bill might be introduced for a downtown site, if something can be crafted that is acceptable to the team.
Purely speculation, to be sure. But I just don’t want to give up all hope just yet.
by Lars in SLP on Jan 24, 2012 2:04 PM CST via mobile reply actions
There will be no vote on Arden Hills
The leadership will not bring it up, because that will force their members to chose between supporting the Vikes and opposing taxes.
And Wilf won’t want it brought to a vote because he won’t want it voted down.
Only one stadium bill will come up for a vote, and only if it’s known ahead of time that it has the votes.
I still think it'd be hilarious if Zyg
found a way to make Arden Hills work with no state money and charge the everloving shite out of any function that comes there which could possibly benefit said state.
by Jepp The Viking on Jan 24, 2012 2:36 PM CST reply actions
He's only $300 million short...
I’m pretty sure I got a few coins in the seat cushions I could contribute…
by liveforadrenaline on Jan 24, 2012 2:45 PM CST up reply actions
Actually he's
about 800 mil short, since the Tea Baggers in the legislator won’t let Ramsey County contribute one dime to the Stadium. that is why Arden Hills got killed; the Legislature won’t waive the referendum requirement for Ramsey county.
Will the Real Thor Please Stand Up ... ?
by the Real Thor on Jan 24, 2012 3:04 PM CST up reply actions
No such thing
As the “Tea Baggers.”
They’re called the Tea Party.
If you want to continue hanging out here, you will refer to them as such and not with a phrase that refers to a sex act that I’m guessing a lot of people would find offensive.
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by Christopher Gates on Jan 24, 2012 4:44 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
I used the term
in several posts in quick succession, I do apologize for coming on a bit strong, just frustration rearing its ugly head, and letting it out.
Will the Real Thor Please Stand Up ... ?
by the Real Thor on Jan 24, 2012 5:11 PM CST up reply actions
You warn him, an apology
I warn him, crickets.
Maybe it really IS better to be feared than loved. :)
"Go hard. I mean, like relentless. I want a bunch of coaches that coach like their hair’s on fire, and I want a football team that goes for four to six seconds (per play) with relentless effort." OSU Coach Urban Meyer.
Maybe it's time to become Hollywood Hulk Hogan
"Go hard. I mean, like relentless. I want a bunch of coaches that coach like their hair’s on fire, and I want a football team that goes for four to six seconds (per play) with relentless effort." OSU Coach Urban Meyer.
Meh...if you're going to use wrestling references...
…I’d suggest the Rock when he was a heel. Lord…that was lifetimes ago (when I was in HS and watched a lot of wrestling. Soap opera’s for men!)
Or in football
If you play defense it is WAY better to be feared by the other team.
Of course, that will make you loved by your own team.
You get to be both…
by liveforadrenaline on Jan 24, 2012 7:56 PM CST up reply actions
People
Wilf doesn’t want to pay for it all and he doesn’t want to own a stadium. That’s why we are having this discussion.
If he wanted to tie up that much of his own capital in a stadium, it would have happened by now. It hasn’t because owning a stadium isn’t a very attractive business proposition and he knows he can can subsidies if he plays his cards right.
I know it isn't a real possibility
So don’t talk down to me. See the part where it says “it’d be hilarious if…”?
by Jepp The Viking on Jan 24, 2012 3:39 PM CST up reply actions
Wilf wouldn't mind...
…. the perks of a stadium. Like parking fees and naming rights.
SkolGirl posted an idea a while back which I thought was great: Build a roofless stadium for significantly less money in Arden Hills on land bought on the cheap from the county (the Feds are on the hook for the cleanup). Wilf gets the location he desires and all the development perks that go with it. Is it that far fetched?
In a word
Yes. In that scenario, he’s got $700+ mil tied up in a property that only has value 10 times a year.
That’s far less attractive than getting the state and local governments each to pay for a third here. Or moving to LA and having the state and local governments pay for all of it.
Paying for his own stadium is pretty far down the list of attractive options.
I think Zygi would leave town first, but what if...
…Ramsey buys the site, and…
Cleans it up with the $30mil in the bonding bill
…puts in infrastructure for development…
Then sells land to developers— including Wilfs!
No referendum vote required to implement bar and eatery tax to fund these activities.
It’ll never work, never mind.
by Lars in SLP on Jan 24, 2012 4:20 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
For what it's worth
Shooter says Wilf will reluctantly agree to the dome site.
cc to zigs
approach the casino/ tribal leaders either up i-35 or down hwy 169 and cut a deal. they pony up some, you pony up the rest. they get a cut every year for a certain time period. you don’t deal with the lawmakers or citizens. you keep all the money and split it two ways. the fans will spend money in shakopee or los angeles. you are already in minnesota. moving is a real pain.
by carl t. curmudgeon on Jan 24, 2012 4:06 PM CST reply actions
The plot thickens... AH not dead?
Rep. Manning ain’t so set on the dome site…
http://www.startribune.com/politics/blogs/137987388.html
When do you think this roller-coaster ride will end?
by Lars in SLP on Jan 24, 2012 4:42 PM CST via mobile reply actions
One problem...
…he’s portraying Dayton as saying the Dome is the final site.
"For those who think that everything has shifted now – Metrodome is it, that’s finished, it’s a done deal. That’s not where I’m at," said Lanning, who said the Metrodome location continued to have multiple drawbacks. "There are those who have already walked away from Arden Hills — I have not done so."
Dayton didn’t do that.
That said, if Manning can convince the no new taxes crowd to sign on to an AH deal, more power to the man.
the Headline is also misleading
Dayton did not “defend” the Metrodome site, only say that it was the only feasible location under the current political climate. And unless there is a rather massive shift in the next week or so, he is right. notice the repeated use of “this legislative session.” the next session doesn’t begin until well after the nov election, so if the Vikes insist on an other location in MN, then they are going to have to wait until after the election. this is not an ultimatum, nor is it closing the book on all other sites, just stating what might be feasible this session.
Will the Real Thor Please Stand Up ... ?
by the Real Thor on Jan 24, 2012 5:20 PM CST up reply actions
The whole problem with that, though
is that, at least to my knowledge, no has asked the Vikings if the plan is doable. And if the requirements that the Vikes think they need don’t match what the state is willing to agree to, then it’s not really a solution.
And I just find it hard to believe that the Vikings will indefinitely sign one year extensions at the Metrodome if they keep getting these unworkable plans foisted on them.
"Go hard. I mean, like relentless. I want a bunch of coaches that coach like their hair’s on fire, and I want a football team that goes for four to six seconds (per play) with relentless effort." OSU Coach Urban Meyer.
The timing on all of this is probably worth a look...
If….I mean IF this whole scenerio has been one big delay tactic, with enough hope attached to it to not turn the Wilf’s away from Minnesota, then maybe one could look at the impending February 15 deadline that the Vikings would have to submit a request to the NFL to move the franchise….or essentially wait another year.
Then, they may get pushed into signing a one year lease at the Metrodome with the option of extending the lease further “when the new stadium deal gets put in place”. Well, this just happens to be an election year as well, so maybe this is just an elaborate ploy to force the issue past the elections before anything significant will take place.
You don't tug on Superman's cape
You don't spit into the wind
You don't pull the mask of the Spiderman
And you don't trash talk about him
by REVENGE4WEBB on Jan 24, 2012 7:23 PM CST up reply actions
goaupher and thor
Dayton may not say Metrodome or nothing. He may not say those other options are dead, but if he’s saying that they’re not possible, what’s the difference? The Vikings have said all along that the Metrodome doesn’t work. Being reasonable, to me, that means that the Metrodome site doesn’t work and neither do the other sites according to all the people involved. That, IMO, means the Vikings leave. I’m not trying to oversimplify the situation, but this all seems like political maneauvering. We saw this with the NFL lockout too. It has to get to the point where someone gets pushed into a corner before any real movement and real possibilities are found. Someone has to say “we’re leaving” before someone will list out the real possibilities. Usually its somewhere in between, but it sounds like Manning is saying that others believe it to be dead(read above, not possible=dead) at the AH location and now we’ve got someone jumping up saying, hold on a minute, let’s think about this a little harder. Negotiation tactics. Politicing(sp?). It’s all the same.
White Horn Gold Pants
Well try to keep up
Dayton said not possible in this session.
And the Vikes said the dome is workable.
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