Wilfs To Meet With Dayton And Minneapolis Officials Today
by Ted Glover on Jan 25, 2012 8:22 AM CST
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So, it all comes down to this, or so it would appear. Vikings owner Zygi Wilf will meet with Governor Dayton and Minneapolis officials, to include mayor R.T. Rybak with the hopes of getting a deal in place for a new stadium deal on the Metrodome site.
The fact that Wilf is even sitting down and listening to the proposal is a positive step, but this isn't a done deal. Several things need to happen in order for the a bill to get passed, even if the Vikes agree to the Metrodome sit. But as near as I can tell, the Vikings three big issues are:
1) The Vikings have said any location other than Arden Hills would mean a 'significant' reduction of the team contribution of $425 million.
2) The Vikings are also concerned about the loss of $60-70 million in revenue by having to play at TCF Bank Stadium.
3) A lack of opportunity to develop the land around the stadium
But that's just the beginning. We'll get to more, after the jump.
Mayor Rybak has said that any bill for a Vikings stadium will include revenue streams to improve Target Center, but folks in the legislature think that might not fly. Rybak counters that although it may be difficult to pass the legislature with that addendum, it will be impossible to pass through the Minneapolis City Council without it.
Ah, the Minneapolis City Council and the city of Minneapolis. In Minneapolis, you need voter approval...a referendum...if the city pays more than $10 million on a sports facility.
Really? Just a sports facility? Only in Minneapolis, I suppose.
'But Ted', you say, 'the voter referendum is what killed the Arden Hills deal. HOW CAN THEY DO THIS?'
Well, for Minneapolis, they're looking to put language in the bill that would...gasp...bypass the referendum. They couldn't do it for Arden Hills, but they'll do it for Minneapolis? Of course they will.
Welcome to Minnesota politics, kids. This is what the wonks refer to as the 'making the sausage' part. Everybody likes the end product, but if anyone saw how sausage was made, we'd all be vegetarians.
Ted Mondale, the MSFC Chairman, is coming up with some plan that would work around that little thing they call a 'law' by making that $10 million technically the property of a new MSFC (it's new, it's improved...it slices, it dices, it juliens!!) and not Minneapolis money. Sooooooooo, Mondale's theory goes, if it's not the city's money, no referendum is needed.
Minneapolis disagrees. At least for right now.
BUT WAIT...THERE'S MORE!!
The Metrodome plan also calls for land acquisition, and I can only assume it will be for more parking and to get some places to tailgate. I hope.
But if Minneapolis sells public land, the CIty Council must approve it on a 9 vote supermajority, not a 7 vote simple majority.
Again, we're working around things we like to call 'laws' to make it pass. Or at least come up with a different interpretation of said law to claim legality. Let's go with the latter.
Here's how this will work, from this here story in the Strib:
To overcome the nine-vote requirement, Metropolitan Sports Facilities Commission attorneys are citing a state law that overrides local charters when a public body sells land to another public entity.
The city of Minneapolis? Again, they disagree.
This is going to end in one of two ways: coming to an agreement to get past these obstacles and get a bill passed so the Vikings can stay in Minnesota....
OR
...More lawsuits than a highway pileup. And while everyone is bitching at everyone else in court, Zygi could very well pull up stakes and say 'Deuces'.
I'm kind of pissed that folks in the Capitol are bending over backward to get a less than optimal plan approved and aren't lifting a finger for the Arden Hills site, but again, I refer you to the 'making sausage' analogy.
I think most of us preferred the Arden Hills site, but there wasn't political support for that, and by most accounts, it wasn't going to pass. Granted, no one really did anything to help get it passed, but as Kelly Campbell famously once said, 'it is what it is'.
We all want the Vikes to stay in Minnesota, and if this is the best plan to make that happen, then I'm on board.
Good luck to everyone involved today, and I hope they can get something worked out. We'll know sometime this afternoon.
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hopefully there will
Be updates regularly today. Here’s hoping the Wilfs’ continued patience.. well continues
by Lunchpail on Jan 25, 2012 8:33 AM CST via mobile reply actions
A few things
First, the referendum waivers are different. Arden Hills needs a waiver for a tax increase. The majority in both houses has pledged no tax increases. That’s different from Minneapolis where the waiver is for how to spend money from existing taxes.
Second, I think you’ve got the land sale issue wrong. Linden ave includes a sale of city land, but I do not think the dome site does. The MSFC owns the stadium land and the Strib owns most of the relevant neighboring land, so the city council super majority shouldn’t matter there.
My understanding was
that they needed land in either deal. Maybe I read the story wrong, but I was under the impression land sales were required for both.
"Go hard. I mean, like relentless. I want a bunch of coaches that coach like their hair’s on fire, and I want a football team that goes for four to six seconds (per play) with relentless effort." OSU Coach Urban Meyer.
If it does end up at the Metrodome site
they damn well better buy some land nearby so that maybe we have some room to sit around and enjoy the stadium over some cold ones. Its so congested down there, I can’t believe this is the one that’s going to go through.
White Horn Gold Pants
In the article you linked
The fourth paragraph says linden ave requires city land, which is co sister with my understanding.
Hmmm
Yeah, I see that. I thought that was justthe example they were using, and the state was still wanting land around the dome. Damn me and my reading comprehension.
Good catch, thanks.
"Go hard. I mean, like relentless. I want a bunch of coaches that coach like their hair’s on fire, and I want a football team that goes for four to six seconds (per play) with relentless effort." OSU Coach Urban Meyer.
Armory
Maybe the armory land that has been previously mentioned as part of the Metrodome plan is the public land they’re referring to?
It would be great
If the armory and Strib land were part of any dome site plan, but they may not be essential.
Yea if both
sites were included it would do a lot for the tailgating, pregame experience that everyone talks about.
Sorry
to double reply… but I really hope both sites are included. Some of my first memories of the Vikings are tailgating with my Dad and his family in those lots where the Guthrie/Condos now are, and while the Strib lots have served their purpose, they just weren’t the same.
If we are building on the dome site
I’m with you. It could be so much better if they use the Strib land and the armory too. I laid out my crude vision for it here.
Cool
concept – there is definitely enough room to build on the adjacent site, and while people would have to give up all tailgating for two years – it probably is the most workable option considering the Vikings could still play in the dome during construction. I like it!
nicely written article that links to
So do you, or anyone else reading this know were the land is that wilf bought a few years ago? it was like 4 city blocks and a parking lot or 2 close to the dome. The address below leads to an old news article about it.
I’d give a hyperlink but I only know how to do that in outlook…
If someone in the know could explain where it is on that map from amiller’s link(if it’s in that picture) i’d appreciate it. It would seem that maybe it’s not much land because I never hear about this land any more. If I remember right he was trying to buy more than this too, but maybe that fell through?
The article is dated 2007.
Kinda sounds like Wilff really wouldn’t be opposed to building at the Metro Dome site. It almost sounds like he’s been planning on it actually!
I'm skeptical
About what land that is or whether they still own it. I would have thought it would have been mentioned in the discussion by now if they did.
But I really don’t know.
Perhaps just hedging his bet a little
That and Arden Hills wasn’t even a baby fetus idea yet so he clearly wasn’t aware of it yet. My guess is that in 07 he probably assumed the Metrodome would be the only location possible.
White Horn Gold Pants
It's also possible
That he always knew that Arden Hills was a long shot, or even knew it wouldn’t happen but thought it was a useful stalking horse to get a better deal.
by amiller92 on Jan 25, 2012 4:15 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Here's from the star tribune on it's land and the land zigi bought in 2007
A potential combination of the current 20-acre Metrodome site, the Star Tribune parcels and land that Wilf’s group bought in 2007 could create a downtown site of nearly 50 acres.
Posted 12/2/2011
http://finance-commerce.com/2011/12/star-tribune-keen-to-sell-land-near-metrodome/
by diehardbronco2 on Jan 25, 2012 3:52 PM CST up reply actions
Yeah, that's what I saw before
So if the Dome is 20 acres, and the Strib is 25 acres, what they bought in 2007 is only 5 acres.
Based on the other parcels
One.
The Strib site is five blocks.
The article said 4 city blocks AND 3 parking lots
So in the article it sounds like more than just 5 acres/more than 1 block.
Being that it’s not widely known Its hard to believes its much land though.
by reebs on Jan 25, 2012 7:04 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
This is not technically correct.
AH does need waiver for imposing a tax increase.
The Minneapolis site needs the city council to pass a bill that authorizes the redirect of the city tax that funds the convention center to the new stadium. Then they need a state waiver to over-ride the $10 mil. cap on sports stadiums in the city charter.
You are correct about the sale of any city land as it pertains to the Metrodome site.
Your fantasy football expert since Jerry Rice's rookie year.
At 8:39 a.m. you said
That’s different from Minneapolis where the waiver is for how to spend money from existing taxes.
The waiver from the state is for the $10 mil city charter cap bypass not how to redirect the existing revenue. They are different issues and different strategies for passage will likely be needed.
Your fantasy football expert since Jerry Rice's rookie year.
Fair enough
I was imprecise, but somewhat intentionally as the point I was trying to make is that Minneapolis does not have to ask the legislature to vote for a tax increase.
It just needs a waiver of the charter provision that restricts how much it can spend (i.e., how it can spend the money).
No problemo.
This whole process, if made a into a flowchart, would look like a Madden tele-strator disaster. I just want to make sure we fight each step with the correct background information in place.
Your fantasy football expert since Jerry Rice's rookie year.
I hope Zygi punches someone in the weiner.
I don’t care who it is, I just hope it happens.
by Odin'sDrunkenSon on Jan 25, 2012 8:43 AM CST reply actions 2 recs
yep - with a Wiffleball bat !
Rec’ed
Vikings Valhalla .com
by Admiral BigGun on Jan 25, 2012 9:37 AM CST up reply actions
I'm hoping beyond hope
That something gets done. REAL progress, not just this beating around the bush. However, part of me is kind of hoping Zygi is just attending this meeting to kindly give Dayton and legislature the finger and tell them to go shove this deal up their @$$es.
by christian220896 on Jan 25, 2012 9:00 AM CST reply actions
Yeah, that would be great
i really want to see the LA Vikings
FIRST OFF
I am a Minnesota Vikings fan not from the US, im not even in the North American Continent. I got hooked to the Vikings when I watched AP’s vid for the record breaking rushing yard game in San Diego. And from then on I came to love the Vikings from Minnesota. And if the Vikes leaves Minnesota, it will be like leaving half of who you are behind. With that I just hope the Governor and the Wilfs can have agree on something after their meeting. I just hope its not the Vikes leaving Minn.
Got my purple on today!
Hope it’s not the last time….
Keep the updates coming…
Fingers crossed
Get it done! No more “Here kitty kitty kitty” Let them know the seriousness of the situation.
To quote the great Samuel L.
“Mine’s the one that says BAD MOTHERF&*#$R”.
Do it, Zygi.
NIce.
Anytime you quote Sam you win
by Jepp The Viking on Jan 25, 2012 10:06 AM CST up reply actions
Off Topic
But that’s a real nice suit Zygi has on. I wonder if he likes the way he looks… The guy from Men’s Warehouse guarantees it.
"I bang sloots off the field, and I bang dudes on the field."
"I don't give a sh!t what your name is, as long as your initials are DTF."
Thad Castle
There's just too many parts for MSC
I’d be surprised if there was progress. The leaders are unable to lead with all of these landmines impeding progress. Leaders can only ‘influence’ now. They’re not in a position to seal the deal.
Metrodome lease has expired. A schedule has to be set for next year. Minnesota needs to save face. They’ve completely screwed it up and has to earn the Vikings favor after burning a lot of bridges.
Less red tape, the better. The fewer leeches sucking off the $$, the better.
IMO Arden Hills offers a fresh start and a true reset with a partner eager to do business. It’s a real disappointment in leadership and execution by Minnesota to drag it out to this point.
Vikings in 2012 will be a Wonder-ful year. Seriously!!
I also love the game of golf. My favorite golf GPS app is OptimalClub.
It is hands down the BEST golf aid you'll ever have for club distances
under current elevation and weather conditions. Stop guessing & score low!
by VikesFanSince1967 on Jan 25, 2012 9:37 AM CST reply actions
I'll give you that, but
There’s a willingness, at least it feels like it, to get a plan done on the Metrodome site. And that can’t be discounted.
We all prefer the Arden Hills plan, at least most of us do. But if there’s no political will to get it passed in the Legislature or by the Governor, then it doesn’t matter how good a plan is.
But with the Metrodome plan, there seems to be a willingness among a lot more people to get a deal done.
And if that’s the case, it’s time to make lemonade with the bowl of lemons we have.
"Go hard. I mean, like relentless. I want a bunch of coaches that coach like their hair’s on fire, and I want a football team that goes for four to six seconds (per play) with relentless effort." OSU Coach Urban Meyer.
by Ted Glover on Jan 25, 2012 9:43 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
The Dome is a lemon
When life gives you lemons, threaten to relocate until someone gives you strawberries.
White Horn Gold Pants
That's the problem.
No one can just be happy with strawberries. And why bring pancakes into the mix. both Waffles and French Toast kick pancake’s ass so don’t even get me started.
White Horn Gold Pants
I don't want your damn lemons what am I supposed to do with these?!
by Crosseyes on Jan 25, 2012 3:43 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
The politics
I was going to do this as a fan post, but I just do the shorter version here.
Any and all stadiums face two main political obstacles: those, mostly on the left, who object to using public money to subsidize sports facilities and those, mostly on the right, who oppose new taxes. Getting a stadium bill passed requires appeasing at least one of those two groups, or building a coalition in the middle between them.
TCF Bank stadium appeased some members of the former group because there were no rich players and owners who looked like they were getting a hand out, and thus it could pass. Target Field was passed by a middle coalition, because “no new taxes” was not the heart and soul of the rightward half of the legislature at the time.
Then came the 2010 elections, and a tide of members who associated themselves with the Tea Party and a strong no-tax pledge, who now have a majority in both houses. The replacement of Dems and older, pro-business Rs with these tax stalwarts changed the game by foreclosing the middle coalition. There is now a “no new tax” majority, and the “no money for stadiums” crowd isn’t exactly ready to change their tune and climb aboard.
That has profound implications for how we can get the Vikings what they need. Support from one of these opposition groups is needed.
And that’s where Arden Hills runs into what looks like an insurmountable problem. Ramsey County needs to impose a new tax to fund it’s portion. There are two ways to get that new tax: 1) hold a referendum or 2) get the legislature to approve it.
Except no one believes a referendum will pass, and the “no new taxes” majority can’t vote for a new tax. So how do you solve that problem? Where can the county get funds that don’t require anyone to vote for a new tax? They’ve tried to argue that an increase in the food in beverage tax doesn’t require a referendum, but it doesn’t seem that this is enough to get the “no new tax” crowd on board. After all, it’s a plan that includes a new tax, and they have to vote for it.
And that’s where Minneapolis has some flexibility. It’s got a tax in place that supports spending that is coming off the books, thus offering a way to appease the “no new tax” legislators. As Ted says, it has its own referendum question, but the “no new tax” majorities might not balk at overriding it because there is not tax increase involved. But the Minneapolis City Council might not be too happy about it being overridden and may stand in the way of other things that need its approval.
Minneapolis business interests come in to play to the extent that they could help persuade legislators who are on the fence, which they seem unlikely to do for Arden Hills, and, of course, to twist arms on the city council. But they are not so much an obstacle as a force isn’t in play to help if you’re looking at something outside Minneapolis.
The added wrinkle is if you want to use expanded gaming, like Shakopee. Again, you have two major obstacles: those, on both sides of the aisle, who have moral or practical objections to gambling and those who want to protect Indian gaming exclusivity. If this is the only source of local funding, you’re just adding to the complications, which is why I think no one is talking about Shakopee anymore.
So there you have it. Ramsey County is the more willing local partner, but faces major hurtles in the legislature. Minneapolis is the more reluctant local partner, but offers a way through the legislature. Which obstacle seems easier to overcome to you?
by amiller92 on Jan 25, 2012 10:48 AM CST up reply actions 6 recs
Great summary. Thanks!
I enjoy watching the Build it Bigger show on cable. They just did a fascinating show on how they’re expanding the NYC Transit with a 50 Billion dollar project, which details how they’re expanding the Grand Central Terminal with a new lower concourse.
Yes, it is not a mis print… 50 billion dollars for infrastructure and transit. We’re squabbling over 1% of that or < .5 billion and volatility in gas prices will rob more $$ out of our pockets than the fixed share the state takes in.
It’s time to realize taxes are not all evil and politics can be pretty stubborn when it comes to it. There’s already too many bad practices and inefficencies within government that fixing these only happens when it creates a pain threshold. You’d be surprised on how many will be willing to pay for a good entertainment. This flawed system of many cover ups and bandaids makes the process of getting things done extremely painful.
Do we need things more difficult for the final 500 million to close the deal?
No.
Here’s a different take…
$1.1 billion
30 years
=$36.7 million per year.
365 days/year
=$100,456 per day
average price of a movie ticket = $12
How many Minnesotans per day at $12 per person daily does it take pay for this deal?
8,372
If NFL kicks in $150 million and Zigi $425 million, Arden Hills ups the ante to $300million that brings total $875 million in commitments. Remaining balance is 225 million.
Using the same math above…
It takes only 1,713 Minnesotans paying $12 daily for 30 years to settle the difference.
Seriously, $$ is not a problem. It’s the people getting in the way and trying to make everyone happy. Hiding behind a no taxes pledge is a lame assed excuse when seeing it in this light and taxable revenues it brings back to the state.
Vikings in 2012 will be a Wonder-ful year. Seriously!!
I also love the game of golf. My favorite golf GPS app is OptimalClub.
It is hands down the BEST golf aid you'll ever have for club distances
under current elevation and weather conditions. Stop guessing & score low!
by VikesFanSince1967 on Jan 25, 2012 11:21 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
First off
the 150 mil from the NFL is included in what Wilf is paying, not separate. Two, are you going to go out and get the “8372” minnesotans to pay 12 dollars a day for the next 30 years to come up with the rest? that makes no sense to use at all.
well, if you look at the quick census facts...
The State of Minnesota has 5,303,925 residents
http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/27000.html
Everyone’s fair share of $100,456 in daily cost is a measly $0.02 cents a day or $7.30 for a year!
A 25 cent swing in gas price per gallon for a 10 gallon tank costs you $2.50 more per fill up. 3 fill ups already exceeds this amount !
OR
Everyone in Minnesota simply needs to go to the movie theater once and pay a $7.30 ticket to their favorite show.
OR
$7.30 is approximately the average price of a decent lunch.
It puts the whole stadium cost under very ridiculously affordable circumstances for the benefit of the entire STATE of MN.
Vikings in 2012 will be a Wonder-ful year. Seriously!!
I also love the game of golf. My favorite golf GPS app is OptimalClub.
It is hands down the BEST golf aid you'll ever have for club distances
under current elevation and weather conditions. Stop guessing & score low!
by VikesFanSince1967 on Jan 25, 2012 1:31 PM CST up reply actions
Well said
"Go hard. I mean, like relentless. I want a bunch of coaches that coach like their hair’s on fire, and I want a football team that goes for four to six seconds (per play) with relentless effort." OSU Coach Urban Meyer.
You thought about this a lot. But I don’t think you are quite on the mark. The Vikings have been pushing for a stadium for 12+ years. A bunch of tea-partiers in the legislature now doesn’t seem to be what is really going on, since other stadiums have been built in the Twin Cities in that time frame.
What we are looking at is:
- The Vikings had a lease, so the government kept pushing it aside
- Now that the lease is up, people are scrambling, which is why everyone and their grandma is proposing some new solution or new site … this indicates that no one was really thinking about it at all before now
I’ve said this before and I will say it again, if I owned the Vikings and was treated with such disdain I would move the team.
All renovating the dome does for the Vikings is it gets them stuck into another lease with the MSFC, which will again snake away a good chunk of their profits. Minneapolis and the MSFC are clearly very powerful, successfully keeping this off the table in the legislature until the very last minute. Screw ’em. The Vikings should control their own destiny.
Um, wha?
since other stadiums have been built in the Twin Cities in that time frame.
The other stadium bills passed well before the tea party/no new taxes folks were elected. The Tea Party as a group didn’t exist until 2009. The last 2 stadium bills passed in 2006.
Boot agrees with you
he’s implying that the people who are claiming the TeaParty is at fault for a stadium not being addressed is false. It may be part of the reason , but certainly not the whole reason. It never would have gotten to this if the legislation had not sat on its hands for this long. They procrastinated long enough and allowed all of these other hurdles to form. The gameplan could have at least been discussed since 2006. Its understandable that the Gophers and Twins got their stadiums first, which is fine, but they should have moved right into discussions with the Vikings and been proactive about it. You know, lead. They could have saved a lot of $$ in the process, but they put it off like a freshman year pot head and they wonder why things aren’t going their way. Things go your way when you’re proactive. Things go your way when you bust your ass. Sure, it doesn’t guarantee anything, but given plenty of time to work on it, some of these politicians are pretty damn smart especially when it comes to $$ so they could have had time to finagle their way through the system before now.
White Horn Gold Pants
They put it off
Like every government everywhere.
Government are not good at acting before it is absolutely necessary.
You're partially right
The Tea Partiers are not the reason why a stadium didn’t get done before 2010. That was a lack of urgency because they had a lease (among other things), as you say.
But it is the Tea Partiers that are standing in the way of Arden Hills now.
Obviously, we don’t know much yet. But I for one hope they tear it down and start over instead of “renovating.” And I think the MSFC is supposed to be replaced.
They Should ROSHAMBO for it... Wilf gets to go first
Vikings Valhalla .com
by Admiral BigGun on Jan 25, 2012 9:39 AM CST reply actions 4 recs
LOL
"Go hard. I mean, like relentless. I want a bunch of coaches that coach like their hair’s on fire, and I want a football team that goes for four to six seconds (per play) with relentless effort." OSU Coach Urban Meyer.
lmfao
I’d rec if there was such an option on mobile…
SOMEBODY REC FOR ME!!!!!!
by Lunchpail on Jan 25, 2012 9:45 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
Done
If we can't laugh at ourselves, Packer fans will call us crybabies and we will be forced to kick their tooth in. I really don't want to go to jail (again).
by Alittlemore_cowbell on Jan 25, 2012 9:50 AM CST up reply actions
and done
"Go hard. I mean, like relentless. I want a bunch of coaches that coach like their hair’s on fire, and I want a football team that goes for four to six seconds (per play) with relentless effort." OSU Coach Urban Meyer.
I'm also not from the US of A...
… but have supported the Vikings ever since they played against the St. Louis Cardinals in England in 1983. I missed out on the Superbowl years, but have suffered the highs and lows ever since. My love of the Vikings has led me to a passing interest in the Twins, Timberwolves, Wild (after the Northstars left), and the Gophers. I purchase team related goods, and have even came to a few games. I even have a car registration related to the Vikings.
My association with Minnesota would end if the Vikings left. My meagre contribution towards the Minnesota economy may not amount to much, but it is what it is.
The way that the Vikings have been treated regarding a replacement stadium is simply terrible. Yes I fully understand that using public money towards a new stadium is not popular, but people do not seem to understand that hosting a professional sports team is a privilege, not a right. There is a cost attached to this privilege, and this cost can initially be painful. This isn’t a case of a billionaire asking for welfare… this is a case of Minnesota accepting that if they want to continue hosting an NFL franchise, then they are going to have to prove that by assisting with the build of an up-to-date, profit generating stadium. The stadium will not be owned by the Vikings – yet the team will be paying upward towards a third of the preficted costs including any overrun. The stadium will be used for many other functions, and will even bring another Superbowl to Minnesota which is a huge money generating event (for the city and NFL – not the team). Whilst I might agree with the dislike for public money being used, Minnesota has had thirty years to prepare for this situation, and yet squirrelled nothing away during the ‘better’ years. Why this has entered overtime with people running around looking under the sofa cushions for a way to pay for this is beyond me! Unfortunately for Minnesota, this is playoff overtime, not the regular season variety, and you don’t need to be Donovan NcNabb to have to be told that the longer this goes on, it won’t end in a tie… the Vikings will simply up sticks and leave.
by blowfishes on Jan 25, 2012 10:12 AM CST via mobile reply actions 1 recs
Referendum
Remember, there are two COMPLETELY DIFFERENT entities involved with the two referendums. Arden Hills has to deal with the State Legislature to by-pass a Ramsey County voter referendum. Unfortunately, that involves a lot more “big-whig” politicians. Minneapolis only has to deal with a 9-person City Council to get around a voter referendum. These are two HUGELY different referendums, and to compare the two is unfair at best. Mark my words: Minneapolis will find a way to get this done.
Ponder. Peterson. Percy. Purple Perfection.
Actually
I’m not sure the City Council can waive the referendum requirement. As it was added via charter amendment, I doubt it.
But the legislature can override the referendum requirement, and unlike Arden Hills, it doesn’t require them to vote for a tax increase.
I think you are a bit off
Voting to give a waiver on a State code requiring a local voter referendum to increase local taxes is not the same as increasing taxes at the state level.
A couple of the legislators I talked to said they don’t care what local governments do with their money, because their focus is on the State government. If the local governments came to them and asked them to waive the referendum requirements then they would vote to do so.
This many not be the case for all state legislators, but I think the thinking has changed somewhat since early this winter when legislative leaders said they wouldn’t vote during a special session to waive the referendum requirement.
by liveforadrenaline on Jan 25, 2012 11:03 AM CST up reply actions
I agree with you
But Zellers and Koch and the members of their caucus didn’t seem to. And it seems that Dayton doesn’t think there are enough votes that agree with you to get something passed.
But I was never in the “no new tax” crowd, so I’m an easy sell.
I just learned, btw
That legislative approval is required for any city or county to impose a new tax or increase any tax on sales or income, at least according to the lawyer representing the Vikings (pg. 105 of the Ramsey County proposal), so an affirmative vote for a tax increase, albeit only a local one, would be required for Arden Hills.
Regarding Minneapolis
The referendum requirement is a part of the city charter and cannot be circumvented by either the mayor or city council. There was a citywide vote sometime in the 90’s that amended the city charter to limit any city contribution toward a stadium at $10,000,000. Doesn’t matter how the funds are raised, there’s a cap. Mayor Rybak wants to circumvent this by asking the state to override the charter in a manner similar to how Hennepin county circumvented the need for a referendum when it raised taxes for the Twins stadium.
I am somewhat sympathetic to Ramsey county because both Ramsey and Minneapolis need help from the state legislature to overrule referendums, but Ramsey requires a new tax whereas Minneapolis would renew an expiring tax and redirect to toward a new recipient. I’m sure the state legislature is looking at Ramsey as a new tax, but Minneapolis as an existing tax. In my mind, they are both new taxes. Regardless, it does tick me off that both Minneapolis and Ramsey are trying to circumvent the laws as they are written to avoid giving the public a voice in the matter.
Doesn't bother me at all
Those charter provisions are stupid and fly in the face of the whole point of representative democracy.
Also, I don’t think the Minneapolis tax is expiring, but rather that the liabilities that it’s meant to fund are expiring.
That's absurd.
That’s akin to saying The Constitution is stupid and flies in the face of representative democracy. There are rules to governing.
Where does the constitution say
That normal-course laws have to be passed by referendum? Oh, right, it doesn’t.
Yes, there are rules to governing, and these are poor (i.e., stupid) ones that fly in the face of representative democracy.
There is no referendum required.
Minneapolis city charter has a cap of $10,000,000 that the city can spend on any stadium. Period. The city council, mayor, or referendum won’t overrule that.
Nope
The charter says $10 mil or you have to have a referendum. Here’s the language
The City of Minneapolis, Minneapolis Community Development Agency, or any city department, agency, commission, or board, shall use no city resources over $10 million dollars for the financing of professional sports facilities without the approval of a simple majority of the votes cast on the question, in a ballot question put to the public at the next regularly scheduled election.
It’s from Ch. 15, Sec. 13 of the City Charter. The requirements are described here.
I stand corrected (seated actually, but you get the point).
To make this a somewhat circular argument, this charter amendment was put on the ballot by elected officials which is representative democracy. And the state law that requires local taxes be put to a referendum was also made law by representative democracy.
70% of Mpls voted for this charter amendment. I’m guessing you were part of the 30%?
I was gonna say
I didn’t live in the city then, but that isn’t technically true. I was in college at the time. I can’t remember whether I voted in the city or at my parents house. I don’t recall whether or how I voted.
If we want to get into government theory, technically, no, this provision was added to the charter by direct democracy — by ballot initiative — not representative democracy.
But we’re getting afield. I don’t like ballot initiatives as a general matter and certainly not ones that try to make complicated fiscal policy by popular vote. It doesn’t work (see, California, for example).
The problem is
(at least in California) that the collective attention span and memory is extremely short.
Furthermore, most proposals are made to sound really appealing and are backed by such groups as “Citizens for a better California” or "Coalition to Improve California Quality of Life’ when the proposals themselves are in fact trying to achieve the opposite and often contain little “poison pills”. Most of it is totally bogus.
I don't understand why Wilff needs the state ?
At this point, wouldn’t it be easier for Wilff to find a private investor and just leave the state out of it ?
I don’t understand why the state has to be involved ?
Buy some property. Build a stadium and play football….Whats so hard about that ?
Wilff’s stadium will be hosting the SB, Final Fours and Rock Concerts while the state will be wondering how to make the Humpty-Dumpty relevant again.
I kinda wish they'd do that.
But the investment money a stadium needs isn’t just something to take lightly. But someone huge like Apple could do it (they come to mind after hearing about their 40-something billion in profits.) Sure instead of the HHH Metrodome we’d have the “Buy Apple products” dome but I’d laugh when the state came to the Wilfs and asked, “Hey can we hold the High school championship here?” And Wilf’s like, “Fuck you guys.”
by Crosseyes on Jan 25, 2012 12:12 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
It's an issue of control
Wilf doesn’t want to control or own the new stadium, because overhead and operating costs are pretty large.
And he doesn’t want to bring in a partner with $$$$ to co-own the Vikings because he would lose control, as he only has a net worth of about $300 million, according to what someone here said.
It would definitely be easier for everyone if Wilf did it himself, that’s for sure, or at least limited this thing to one government agency, rather than piles of them and stadium commissions and whatnot…
Few stadiums have been built with multiple government agencies…
by liveforadrenaline on Jan 25, 2012 12:13 PM CST up reply actions
If Wilf...
… doesn’t want control or own a stadium, how can he justify collecting stadium naming rights and parking revenue?
It gets written into the legal contracts and what not.
BTW, this is the sort of thing people who hate the idea of public funded stadiums scream hard about.
Others have posted some good reasons.
I think it mostly comes down to if he owns it then the maintenance is all on him, etc.
Also, minor quibble. But the facility will get one Super Bowl tops as I find it unlikely that they send the big game to the Minnesota cold multiple times when the stadium isn’t near the amenities of downtown. For that same reason you won’t see any Final Fours there because the event requirements for the Final Four include mass transit, hotels, etc…basically the stuff that AH won’t have enough of in close proximity.
Because he doesn't want to
He knows he can get public money to build a stadium, either here or elsewhere, so that’s what he wants to do.
Beyond that, tying up that much of his own money in a stadium isn’t very attractive. Other than the Vikings games, there isn’t much that makes money at a stadium, so it’s not how he’d like to invest.
Where else is he going to get public money ?
As far as I know, the LA deal is private money… i’m not aware of any other deal ?
Which is one reason he might not be quick to want to move.
Depending on how an LA deal is structured he still might make more here.
I don't know of anything specific at the moment
But they will find it if they look for it.
Zygi
is a great business man. That can’t be argued. If a stadium were a profitable investment, he’d surely go all in on it himself. What this should tell you is that stadiums, from a pure financial, economic viewpoint, are not good investments. This is why the public must be involved. He needs other people’s money so he can post a profit.
I'm not sure that follows
But he certainly profits more if he gets a subsidy.
repeating history
the dome was the cheapest of three proposals. now the redome is the money loser which is what the vikes will get stuck with. if i were wilf i would say arden hills ill give 400+ mill. Minneapolis i donate 10$. the state will then say noway to both vikes move and minnesota will look like the bad guys . the dome falls into disrepair and then the state has no multi use facility loses even more money. vikes leave win 2 superbowls somewhere else in first 5 years and never look back . minnesota is then the laughing stock of all sports . remember the commish has stated any new stadium will get at least 1 superbowl host . and well not many of you may know why we got a superbowl for 1991. it was because arizona wouldnt recognize mlk day . once it was pulled from az they woke up and then got it a few years later. dome site sucks no tailgating sterile environment ….. if football were meant to be played indoors your mother would never yell at you as a kid no throwing that thing in the house go outside . and they want to add on to help the target center ….. vikes told to wait turn . t wolves get to 500 or better for three years b4 u start talking about tc needing upgrades time to wait your turn … i love my vikings since 74 but it might be time to just watch them walk away . cry and be done with nfl all together .
I really don't understand
How any fan would rather have the Vikings leave than consider any possible compromise from their preferred stadium.
That just makes no sense to me.
It's emotion running roughshod over logic.
That plus, for those of us old enough to remember the nonsense that brought us the downtown humptydome, watching these d-bags repeat the same mistakes as were made in the late 70s just makes us want to scream.
by Lars in SLP on Jan 25, 2012 12:35 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
Yeah, I'm not that old
But I don’t know if they are making the same mistakes or not. It all depends on the specifics of the design and the plan for the surrounding area to me.
How any fan would rather have the Vikings stuck in a deal which makes them the doormats of the league rather than move somewhere where they can compete makes no sense to me.
Uh huh.
So the location alone means the stadium is incapable of producing enough revenue and as a result the team is automatically going to be a doormat? And so your solution before seeing anything on paper is to sacrifice that hometown team to a new city? Just you can be happy? While almost every other Vikings fan is pissed off?
Yikes.
Because the stadium doesn't make them doormats
There is a salary cap, and soon there will be a salary floor. As things stands, they have more than enough revenue to cover what they can spend on talent.
This is a question of whether its sufficiently attractive to ownership to keep a team here, not a question of whether the team can compete.
So I just checked out the Star Trib articles...
…and I cannot believe the negativity on the msg boards. Seriously? Go away Vikings? Must be easy to say that as you sit around and do nothing all day long.
I look on those too
it just angers me.
when asked by Dan Patrick if his name alluded to not making quick decisions in the pocket, Ponder calmly replied "As crazy as it sounds, my mom's maiden name is actually Superbowlwinner. All one word"
who the hell knows who those people are anyways
I mean, seriously. Could be people from LA loosely following the situation and just dicking around. Could be someone from the Strib itself. It doesn’t matter. What it seems is they prefer to repeat phrases over and over like “Don’t have my state provide welfare for a billionaire. If Wilf wants a stadium, pay for it himself or you, the fans pay for all of it”
White Horn Gold Pants
Seems like two parties at work there.
The : ZOMG KNO NEEU TAXZES rabergarble crowd
and the
“More money for schools and arts because that is what I want and don’t give a damn about common good” crowd.
by Jepp The Viking on Jan 25, 2012 2:15 PM CST up reply actions
So, from twitter
It sounds like they had a productive meeting (it’s over now), but didn’t reach any big deal. They will meet again next week.
Ziggy said Arden Hills isn’t dead, but they are focusing on the Metrodome now, which he said is workable. He said they want to build a “People’s Stadium” using the term from Rybak’s proposal.
Rybak said any deal has to include the Target Center, which John Kriesel said on Twitter may cost votes. I thought Kriesel’s comment was interesting.
Sen. Rosen, one of the stadium backers, said the food and beverage tax in Ramsey County is out (“not going to work”) and Ramsey County has a week to come up with an alternative.
Rep. Lanning, also a stadium backer, echoed what Kriesel said about Target Center potentially costing votes, and that they are not yet committing to a single site.
Source for all of this is tweet from the Strib’s Rachel Stassen-Berger, MPR’s Tim Nelson, WCCO’s Pat Kessler, KARE 11’s John Croman
a "People's Stadium"?
So what you are telling me is it will be called the Jim Carter Kleinsasser Field?
PERFECT!
by Odin'sDrunkenSon on Jan 25, 2012 2:22 PM CST up reply actions
Calling
it a “People’s Stadium” is putting lipstick on a pig. Its only called that to distract from the fact that the whole reason it is being built is to pad Zygi’s wallet. Kind of like how the bill that took the most privacy away from US citizens ever is called “The Patriot Act.”
Not the whole reason
Also to keep the Vikings here.
That
is pretty much my whole point. Zygi is demanding a new stadium so he can sell more box seats, raise ticket prices, and reap a greater profit. Its not like Vikings fans are refusing to go to games unless the “game day experience” is improved. One of the worst Vikings team in history took the field this year, and they still sold out.
And?
If he can’t make enough money here, he will move the team or sell it to someone who will move it.
yeah… not quite sure I see where you’re going with this, DMacAD…
by Odin'sDrunkenSon on Jan 25, 2012 3:34 PM CST up reply actions
Where
I’m going is that this is not about “The People” in any way. Hence, calling it “The People’s Stadium” is a bit of a slap in the face.
Except it is about "the people"
Who want to have and keep an NFL team here.
And
the only reason there is even a question of the team leaving is because the out-of-state owner feels he isn’t making enough profit. This has nothing to do with the fan experience, nothing to do with the fans.
The only reason there's a question of the team leaving
is the Vikings are #31 of 32 teams in the league in revenue, and the State was told a DECADE ago they would be in this condition then. And the NFL is sick and tired of subsidizing a state that refuses to bring its stadium up to minimum standards of safety, let alone respectable revenue for the franchise.
Don’t blame Wilf for being more patient than anyone had any right to expect from him. If anything, he should’ve played hardball last year.
by Shawn Gillogly on Jan 25, 2012 9:15 PM CST up reply actions
Oh and
The Minneapolis proposal called it that in part because of the non-Vikings events that could be held there.
Can't wait
for all these awesome events to start popping up. Has anyone looked at the Metrodome schedule lately? Its 50% Gopher’s baseball and 49% rollerdome, with a “Dog Day” and Monster Truck Derby thrown in. Where are all these supposed events going to come from?
The state high school league
Has a ton of events there.
How much is enough?
Because there is no way in hell we can compete with a city willing to pay 100% of the cost of a stadium built in an area where they will stomach ticket prices that won’t be stomached here. If it’s all bottom-line, we can’t compete. And if it’s all bottom-line, the fans mean nothing.
This
is what gets me Vrooman – the unabashed Zygi d*** sucking on this site. How do people champion a guy who has been making thinly veiled threats to move a historic team that he has owned for a fraction of their history, all the while watching his investment increase at $50 – $100 million a year, because his revenue isn’t enough at the stadium he doesn’t pay for? It’s maddening.
Except
Zygi has never threatened to move the team himself. Point of fact, he’s said the opposite. He wants to do everything he can to keep the Vikings in Minnesota.
All of the “Omg, the Vikings are leaving!” stuff is all from the media who speculated what might happen if the lease is allowed to expire.
I can respect that
But I believe he’s implying that he’s(zygi) is trying to create the best game-day experience as possible for the fans. I would assume that’s what they are getting at. Now, if they come out and name it the Free Dome at Independently Financed Field, then you have a point. Personally, I think you could call it some type of community center. I’m not very creative so I don’t have a great name for it, but its a stadium paid for by state, city, and the football team collective. All put a little in. All take a little out.
White Horn Gold Pants
Something like that
Since the Minnesota/Minneapolis/HennepinCounty/St.Paul/RamseyCounty/ArdenHills/Non-ResidentWelcomedPeople&Funds/Wilf/Dayton/Legislature/DowntownBusinessmen/MetroSportsComm/Vikings Stadium is sorta hard to put on a facility…
by liveforadrenaline on Jan 25, 2012 2:39 PM CST up reply actions
Good Point
Oh, and if we start listing off the fans? That would become an issue.
White Horn Gold Pants
Well
It isn’t actually going to be named that, but it’s good branding during the political process.
and this is why the Mpls politicians are so shady:
Rybak said any deal has to include the Target Center
this piggy-backing crap is bogus. if the Target Center needs work done, then figure it out in a separate deal. don’t shoe horn the new stadium into the “only workable site”, and then say, “oh, by the way, this other sporting facility needs a facelift…”
this is why all of the proposals backed by Mpls politicians seem like back-room deals, and why they have tried so hard to call Arden Hills “dead”… i dunno, it just doesn’t sit right with me.
"Th_r_'s n_ h_p_ f_r _ssh_l_ f_ckw_ts."
Can I buy a vowel...?? +1, Kluwe.
Here's an idea:
Why don’t they present a bill for upgrades on the Target Center and then try to slip in the new Vikings stadium?
White Horn Gold Pants
by DM_Purp on Jan 25, 2012 3:11 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
no no, people would see RIGHT through that...
"Th_r_'s n_ h_p_ f_r _ssh_l_ f_ckw_ts."
Can I buy a vowel...?? +1, Kluwe.
The reason the city...
… wants to piggyback that is because the CITY owns Target Center. It’s their way of taking on a burden, but also unloading one. And if I’m not mistaken, the city also wants the state to take on ownership of the Convention Center.
sounds like one of those things where i'd say:
“sounds like a personal problem”.
they could just let the Vikes work out their deal with Arden Hills without trying to create this facade of the Dome site being the only workable one — then they wouldn’t have to take on such a ‘burden’ and they could focus on the Target Center by itself.
they’re not interested in what’s best for the state, the fans or the Vikings — they’re trying to solve other problems that they could have been working on years ago by earmarking the stadium deal, and that isn’t legit.
"Th_r_'s n_ h_p_ f_r _ssh_l_ f_ckw_ts."
Can I buy a vowel...?? +1, Kluwe.
Again
Arden Hills is in danger of dying because there isn’t a source of local funding that will pass the legislature (which has a “no new taxes” majority).
Target Center is irrelevant to that.
if they can bypass that option in Mpls...
…why can’t Ramsey county??
hopefully Ramsey county can come up with another source of funding, b/c i’m sick of this same old story.
"Th_r_'s n_ h_p_ f_r _ssh_l_ f_ckw_ts."
Can I buy a vowel...?? +1, Kluwe.
It's not the same
In Minneapolis, they are proposing to use an existing tax to pay for the stadium, which means the legislature doesn’t have to vote for a tax increase.
So far, Ramsey County has only proposed paying for it’s portion with a tax increase.
Unless they can find money that doesn’t require a vote in the legislature in favor of a tax increase, Arden Hills does not look politically viable.
As I said in more detail above.
i gotcha
it’s just frustrating how they seem to be ignoring the years of projected revenue loss to the team, and nobody seems to be talking about how the Wilf’s will contribute a substantially less amount for anywhere not named Arden Hills. (i don’t necessarily blame the Wilf’s for not divulging that info.)
all in all, i’m really hoping Ramsey county can pull this out… the Wilf’s have done their due diligence for so long and went along with everything that was requested of them, and now they’re being given the shaft and basically told to “settle or else”. it’s all politics and that sucks.
"Th_r_'s n_ h_p_ f_r _ssh_l_ f_ckw_ts."
Can I buy a vowel...?? +1, Kluwe.
I have no doubt
That among the things discussed in today’s meeting was how much the Vikings would be willing to contribute to new stadium at the dome site. They probably didn’t given numbers (or we would have heard), but I’m sure it was discussed in general terms.
I’m also sure that they discussed the lost revenue from playing elsewhere (Zygi mentioned it in the post-meeting press conference).
My guess is that the “substantially less” in contribution is going to be the $50-70 million in additional costs and lost revenue from playing at TCF, but that’s just a guess. Regardless, all of this is part of what’s under negotiation.
for god's sake
I can’t believe the patience of the Wilfs.
What is the astounding obsession with building in Minneapolis?
They took care of the Twins(which were nearly contracted Bud Selig and the owner)
They took care of the Gophers
The lease is up on the metrodome, the Vikings literally are free agents.
They’ve been criticized for not being thorough enough in their plan in Arden Hills, and now your plan is to keep them in the city limits and make up the rules as you go along with no actual plan.
I can’t be optimistic. Take your money off the table, Zygi. The game is rigged
Here's the thing
Unlike the more hysterical fans on this site, the Wilfs don’t ever seem to have had a “Arden Hills or bust” attitude.
Right now, what should be the main attraction for building in Minneapolis for anyone who favors a new stadium is that Minneapolis can fund the local portion without a tax increase. Which makes it substantially more viable in a legislature that has “no new tax” majorities in both houses.
Also, Selif and Polad were bluffing about contraction.
Maybe they haven't had that attitude
But they put time, effort and hope into it. They dreamed about it. They got a local partner. They submitted plans. Meanwhile, they’ve been told, nope, nope, nope. We don’t have a plan, but we certainly don’t like yours.
by scottfromcmh on Jan 25, 2012 4:10 PM CST up reply actions
Time and effort, yes
Hope, I don’t know. They are pretty shrewd. It’s possible that they knew all along that it was going to be a long shot.
Certainly they had to know after the 2010 elections that asking for new taxes was going to be difficult. And if they didn’t, they certainly should have after the shutdown last year.
Reading your continual spin/spiel about "no new taxes" is tiresome, since its not true
Obviously you are a Democrat pushing for a Minneapolis site. We all get that. Maybe you are even a Democrat sitting on the Minneapolis City Council. No problem.
What is a problem is your continual droning about something that is simply untrue… vis a vis that this legislature is a “no new taxes” legislature and nothing can happen to fund anything blah blah blah.
The Minnesota Budget process doesn’t even work that way.
What happened last year, and all previous years since the beginning of time, was that the Minnesota office of Management and Budget projected X dollars of revenue for the fiscal year.
Dayton came out with a budget asking for $50 million more than the prior year in spending. The Legislature countered with $32 million more in spending than the prior year. They comprised on about $42 million more. Is that more taxes? Yes… there is no question that it is.
To say that this legislature won’t ever approve a higher spending amount based on higher taxes collected or anything is patently false. To also say that Arden Hills has no other option to finance something is false. As a matter of fact, they have been given another week to produce a plan for whatever financing they want.
Recent figures released by the Minnesota Management & Budget office shows that Minnesota ended the fiscal year with $576 million more cash on hand than was projected from the budget they did… $358 million came from more tax revenue than projected and $205 million came from less spending than projected.
You trying to speak for what the Republicans and the Governor are going to do with this extra cash this year or in future years is like my ex telling me what I’m going to do with my money… its weird that you even talk about it let alone make out you are like an expert on what the Republicans are going to do, since you aren’t even one of them…
If you want to talk politics, fine… but this is a FOOTBALL site, and if you want to talk about the fluidity of annual and biennial budgets, Tea Partiers, House & Senate majorities, etc., then we might as well ask the good folks at the Daily Norseman to turn this into a political site…
by liveforadrenaline on Jan 25, 2012 5:01 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
huh?
You’re confusing higher revenues and/or higher spending with a tax increase. You can get both more revenue and/or spend more without necessarily increasing taxes, so I don’t know what you are on about.
The shutdown last year was entirely about the governor wanting to raise tax rates to partially close the budget gap. The legislature refused and we had a shut down. Then the governor caved, and the budget hole was filled using other gimmicks to move money around. There was no tax rate increase.
That’s not the same as there not being more spending out of greater revenues at he same tax rates, and that isn’t what Ramsey County is proposing. They are currently proposing raising the tax rates on on food and beverage purchases in the county. And that rate increase is what the “no new tax” majority balks at.
I never said that Ramsey County can’t come up with a funding source that doesn’t rely on a tax increase. I said they haven’t yet. Given that they know that the problem with their prior proposal was that it relied on a sales tax increase, the fact that they haven’t found a non-tax-increase source might suggest that they have a very challenging week ahead of them, but maybe they misunderstood the legislature’s objection to the original plan. We’ll see.
You’re right that the state economy performed better than expected and we collected more in tax revenue that was projected. It’s entirely possible that the governor and legislature could use some of that money for the state’s contribution. But we were talking about the local contribution, and thus far the only plans out of Ramsey county rely on raising tax rates to raise the local revenue.
As for politics, well, this is a stadium discussion, and the politics matter. If you don’t like it, why don’t you skip the stadium posts?
by amiller92 on Jan 25, 2012 5:26 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Yep. And what really gripes my ass
Is the hypocrisy.
The existing tax money Mpls collects only exists because a previous legislature approved it. Not this legislature, granted, but those taxes were approved for a specific purpose— by law — and are to expire at the end of a specified period. Minneapolis can’t do what they want without the legislature changing the terms, conditions, purposes and longevity that exists. I say if its a new law with a new purpose, its a new tax. Call a spade a spade dammit.
They can claim it doesn’t constitute a ‘new tax’, but if these taxes change to the degree requested they are indeed ‘new’. They will no longer be called the Convention Center taxes; They’ll be called the New Stadium taxes.
A rose by any other name still smells the same
This load of BS will stink no matter how they try to sell it. Apparently, in politics, one really can polish a turd.
And if Mpls can have its own sales tax, bar & restaurant tax and hotel tax, why on God’s green earth are those morons help bent on preventing the Ramsey County board from implementing just one of those taxes?
I’m a life-long dyed in the wool republican (note the lower case r) but I’ll be rammed if I will vote for any of my folks who pursue this lunacy. I can’t wait for caucusses. How much you wanna bet this will all be over by then.
by Lars in SLP on Jan 25, 2012 6:31 PM CST via mobile up reply actions 2 recs
Actually, that's not right
See what Odin said above. Minneapolis can do anything with the money except pay for a stadium without help from the legislature. The tax isn’t expiring, just the obligations it was imposed to fund.
But I actually agree that there shouldn’t be a difference between repurposing an existing tax and imposing a new one. In substance, there isn’t. But it seems that there is a political difference. It’s chickenshit position to switch your vote over.
But it also just might be the difference that keeps the Vikes here.
No, that is not correct. See page 103 of the AH plan.
That is one of the legal stipulations for local option taxes such as those Mpls has.
State paw requires they end at the end of the project period.
The only exception is the lodging tax, which is authorized under statute but only for purposes of operating a convention center or tourism.
You can look it up in either the AH plan or state statute 297A.99 on the Revisor’s website.
It will take a new legislature’s new LAW to to redefine and create the, say it with me now: “NEW TAXES”.
Mpls needs three of them, Ramsey County needs only one. But just watch these clowns do it. And the DFL will destroy them with it this November.
by Lars in SLP on Jan 25, 2012 7:56 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
Hi amiller92
The Republicans are keeping their no new taxes pledge. Commendable for keeping their promise, not commendable for denying a project that helps the state.
I find the blame to be on the extreme left wing, OWS-loving Democrats who falsely think they should deny this deal because of their dogma of this being corporate welfare. Or welfare for billionaires. Or whatever they call it this week.
One group is keeping a campaign promise, the other group is using a false premise. We need to vote out these unreasonable Dems in 2012.
Flame away.
Your fantasy football expert since Jerry Rice's rookie year.
There are definitely liberal Dems
Like John Marty from St Paul, who oppose any stadium financing too.
But those people oppose any and all sites. It’s the no new tax crowd that says no to Arden Hills but might say yes to Minneapolis.
re: odin...
I did see his post earlier but did not have time to hide from the boss to address it.
The legal opinion that accompanied the AH plan broke it all down in detail. It came from Gray, Plant, Mooty- one of the old, respected law firms in town.
I strongly recommend everyone here read it, and then call your rep. & senator!
by Lars in SLP on Jan 25, 2012 8:07 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
Hi Lars.
Interesting of how you think it would take three votes because the tax has to sunset or be considered a new tax; when it’s obligation is paid in full or redirected in a major way. In theory, I agree with you. My guess is the legislature would try to combine both issues (the tax issues and the $10 mil cap) into one vote if it came to that. I wouldn’t like it, but they really don’t care what I like.
I find it harder to believe that the state can over-ride a city charter. This is not a mere law, but a governing document. They are telling the Minneapolis citizens their votes did not count and someone from Mankato or wherever has the power to tell them so. I have heard that if the state does this, there will be lawsuits. Can you say delay?
There are some Minneapolis council members that may vote against the redirection of these funds, so as to deny others the opportunity to over-ride their charter. That would kill any deal immediately if they were successful. This is far from a done deal.
Your fantasy football expert since Jerry Rice's rookie year.
Again, I highly recommend reading the legal summary.
The RC Charter does not require a referendum for the 3% restaurant and bar tax.
by Lars in SLP on Jan 26, 2012 5:20 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
O.K. I read the page in the proposal.
It looks like (to me a non-lawyer) that no referendum is needed in RC but they still must get state approval. But Minneapolis must get re-approval too. I hope I am reading this right.
Thanks for the heads up. Here is a link for anyone else that want to read it.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/78069095/Ramsey-County-Vikings-Stadium-Proposal
Your fantasy football expert since Jerry Rice's rookie year.
I have no reason to believe that it's wrong
But keep in mind that letter is the opinion of one lawyer worki g for the Vikings.
On the city charter
Cities are not sovereign. They are incorporated under the laws of the state, and subject to the state’s authority. The state can go so far as to dissolve a city (as a legal entity) if it wants.
As a legal matter, I don’t think the charter override is an issue.
But as you say, it could be a political issue if doing it costs votes on the city council. It will be tricky.
Thanks for the clarification.
It was bugging me. Do you have a link or an idea what keywords I should use for a search so I can source this info?
Your fantasy football expert since Jerry Rice's rookie year.
hmmm
Law school?
I’m not sure I have anything definitive, but here’s what the city’s webpage says about the charter:
The State Legislature may pass special laws which supersede, contradict, or preempt the city charter.
If I recall, you can see examples of where it has been amended by statute if you look at the charter, but the link to the online version isn’t working at the moment.
Thanks again.
Here is a link to how the city council is shaping up as of Jan. 20. Not good for a Viking stadium passage.
http://www.startribune.com/local/blogs/137758833.html
Your fantasy football expert since Jerry Rice's rookie year.
Yeah
There are issues there too.
But I’m more optimistic that the “Minneapolis mafia” can twist arms to get 7 votes (in part because the mayor thinks he can) on the council than I am that the legislature will vote for a Ramset County tax increase.
Because you've grossly overstated the "tea-party" element of this.
Every legislature has as many different agendas as members. To expect a unified plan from ANY legislature is ludicrous. That’s why there’s an executive branch in our system. The bully pulpit provides direction for the legislative branch, even if they refuse to act on it.
Dayton has done little-to-nothing to lead on this issue. Like he has on ‘every’ issue. Also, both Dayton and TPaw were tied to the Minneapolis lobby at the hip. Neither one of them was going to endorse Arden Hills because that would kill their electoral support and fund raising. And Minneapolis was willing, as a result, to play the “You’re not going anywhere so deal with it” card as a result.
While I’ll grant the Tea Party has added another dynamic to this, to paint them as anti-growth is oversimplification. Ramsey County wasn’t able (unfortunately) to propose a workable alternative plan. I find that personally disappointing. But they really should have had a plan B for fund-raising.
It also omits the problem the Native lobby has created in holding up funding through expanded gambling, which very well might have passed any plan, including Arden Hills.
This isn’t a left-right issue at its core. It’s a Minneapolis Mafia issue.
by Shawn Gillogly on Jan 25, 2012 6:32 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Huh?
Who says they are anti growth? They are anti-tax, and taxes are the main obstacle to AH.
Not the only obstacle, but one that no amount of leadership from Dayton is going to overcome. Even if he was Churchill instead of the inherently weak dude he is.
It’s not at all a left right issue. It’s a middle versus extremes issue, with neither far see on board.
Dayton is a DFL governor dealing with a GOP dominated legislature
this so-called “bully pulpit” does not exist. He can talk all he wants but he can only sign or veto what they pass.
by ghostofmunicipalstadium on Jan 25, 2012 8:37 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Divided Governments reach compromises all the time.
It’s the principle the Founders WANTED. But Dayton is too beholden to Minneapolis to do more than pay lip-service to any other location. TPaw was IR and the Legislature DFL before, but he had no more desire to honk off the Mafia than Dayton does.
And Minneapolis was playing “Hah, you’re getting nothing and liking it” with the Vikes for most of a decade. Left or Right, didn’t matter on this. Blaming this on ‘partisanship’ misses the boat entirely.
The squeaky wheel is where its always been, the Minneapolis Mafia. They weren’t going to do anything until another serious player stepped up and forced them to act, because they were convinced they could just keep treating the Vikes like a mushroom based on a promise made by a Commissioner 2 times gone and now in his grave.
Now they have the plan they’ve always wanted. But I personally don’t think the Vikings are going to eat 60mil a year in losses waiting for a Retrodump.
by Shawn Gillogly on Jan 25, 2012 9:24 PM CST up reply actions
Nice attempt to absolve the tea party
But it’s still a lie.
In all fairness
The Tea Party has been a major benefit to the thinking of the American people and American politics. Just because we want the Vikings to stay in Minnesota no matter what and I include myself in that, does not make what the Tea Party stands for wrong. We, as a nation and people, cannot keep throwing away money, good after bad just because.
I agree with Shawn in that it is the Minneapolis political structure that is at the root of this bullshit. Blame them.
This isn't a political site
And I don’t want to debate politics more broadly.
But it isn’t the Minneapolis political structure that is saying no to the Ramsey County funding proposals.
Saying that no new taxes legislators (Tea Party or otherwise)...
…are holding strong to their pledge and are thereby keeping the AH plan from happening isn’t an attack. It’s simply a saying what has happened thus far. The AH plan could have been voted on in a special session. The Republican controlled legislature said they wouldn’t consider it. That is because the leadership knows their caucus won’t support the tax increase.
shutdowns prove how inept people are
There is nothing wrong w/shrewd. They’re businessmen.
The Vikings don’t have a place to play. I’m tired of it
Just so we are clear
“shrewd” is in no way an insult.
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