Today's Stadium Talks: "Optimistic, Doable, Progress"...Maybe We're Getting There, Folks
by Ted Glover on Jan 25, 2012 7:41 PM CST
in Minnesota Vikings Stadium
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PrintToday Vikings owner Zygi Wilf met with key legislative players in the ongoing, interminable, and never ending stadium saga. There's a chance that everyone is blowing sunshine up everyone else's skirt, but if the summary of today's meeting is taken at face value, then it seems that we are getting closer to a resolution.
I'm going to go out on a limb and say they'll get something done in this Legislative session.
Now, don't get me wrong--there's still a ways to go, but any progress is progress. And as for today, progress for me was Wilf not walking out of the Governor's office and saying 'Wilf out."
Let's break it down, after the jump.
One of the surprising takeaways for me today was Zygi Wilf saying "Arden Hills is not out of the picture. We would still like to explore it."
Zygi, I appreciate it. I would like to personally explore the naked boobs of every Miss America contestant, but that ain't gonna happen. And barring a miracle, I don't see Arden Hills happening, either. Their local funding plan (local taxes that must be passed by the legislature or put before the voters for a referendum, both a no-go) is dead in the water, and Senate stadium sponsor Julie Rosen said that in order for Ramsey County to stay in the game, they'll need to bring forth a new local funding plan by next Wednesday. Hopefully, Ramsey County has something up their sleeve, so we'll see.
As for the Metrodome proposal, Minneapolis mayor R.T. Rybak is still insistent that some money raised for the Metrodome site will be used towards upgrading Target Center. But that doesn't sit well with the House stadium author, Rep. Morrie Lanning. Lanning feels that making Target Center upgrades part of the equation will cost votes that could jeopardize the bill...but Rybak feels that NOT including Target Center will cost just as many votes on the other side of the issue.
Sounds like a 'My Dad can beat up your Dad' kind of thing. And just for the record, my old man could take all of you.
Every. Single. One.
And of course, there was Governor Mark Dayton, leading from the front.
"I'm not setting any more deadlines" said Dayton. I heard he's writing a book called 'Dayton On Leadership'. It just premiered on Amazon at # 6,439,804,001.
Hey, are there problems to overcome? Sure. Is Arden Hills on life support? Yes. Is there a deal in place for the Metrodome site? Not even close.
Who is this dude, and what is he doing in this post?
This all reminds of a great quote from Ferdinand Foch, who at the end of World War I was the Supreme Allied Commander of all forces--the Norman Schwarzkopf or Tommy Franks of WW I, if you will.
The quote comes from the Battle of the Marne in 1914. The German Army had swept through France and were threatening Paris. The Allies threw 45 divisions against 27 German divisions, and in some of the fiercest fighting of the war, blunted the German offensive and their vaunted Schlieffen Plan. At the height of the battle, as the commander of the French 9th Army, Foch sent one of the most awesome situation reports in the history of warfare:
"Hard pressed on my right. My center is yielding. Impossible to maneuver. Situation excellent. I am attacking."
They're talking, everyone is encouraged, and everyone wants to get something done, apparently Wilf most of all.
It's going to get done.
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Well,
At least they’re trying to hash it out, and however overdue it is, just your optimism, which has lacked in the past, makes it seem like there might be some light at the end of the tunnel. I don’t know when these talks about upgrading Target Center in the same bill came about, and it seems a little fishy to me, and I wonder if Wilf had any inkling of that, but whatever works. And I suspect your dad would have us all doubled over laughing before anything ever occurred. And Ferdinand has a bitching moustache. Thanks for the updates.
Build up your weaknesses until they become your strong points." --Knute Rockne
Target center thing
Was brought up last year I believe during Minneapolis’ last lame attempt but hasn’t gone away I see.
by reebs on Jan 25, 2012 9:36 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
Wait a second I have a question...
What ever happened to that expected $900,000 dollar surplus in the budget next year? Why does there have to be all this squabbling over numbers when this supposedly is going to be manageable.
Look I understand Zygi stepped on toes years back when he was buying land up in AH before saying he had a local partner so he could maxamize his investment but I still don’t see why we can’t just let him have it. He’s offered 425 mil towards AH and will end up paying taxes on this place for years to come. I understand Minneapolis is trying to put a halt on this but I don’t get why the rest of MN is being so blind about this. This needs to get done now, and I’m tired of Minneapolis and their smug attitude about this whole deal. AH works their tails off to get the munition site under 30 mil which was a sticking point according to the state. They up their investment from the suburb cuz funding is an issue. They submit the longest and most detailed report of all of the ones submitted( at least that is how it sounded to me). Minneapolis sent 4 pages and now they get their way still. I agree with Chris, Zygi it’s time to play some serious hardball.
It's because of the Tea Party Republicans in the state legislature
Why can’t Arden Hills “just get done”? Because the proposal requires the state legislators to do something that most of them pledged they would never do: overturn a requirement to hold a voter referendum to raise taxes in Ramsey County. The Republicans control the state legislature, and without them signing off on raising taxes, Arden Hills won’t happen, unless some miracle funding option emerges that doesn’t require Arden Hills to raise taxes. At this point, I don’t see it happening.
It’s kind of ironic really. Republicans generally have a lot more political clout in the suburbs, and you’d think that the local constituents would be jumping all over themselves to get the Vikings out into the suburbs. But, because of the very pledges that got them into office, they’ve bound their own hands on this one. Kind of silly really.
Ponder. Peterson. Percy. Purple Perfection.
by CCNorsemen on Jan 25, 2012 8:52 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
You've got to be kidding
You’re criticizing ‘Tea Party Republicans’ for doing what they told their constituents they’d do if elected? So, you’re blaming them for doing what the people that voted them in office want them to do. Hmmm.
Tell me you’re joking, that this is just satire.
"Never approach a bull from the front, a horse from the rear, or a fool from any direction." - Old Cowboy proverb.
by TexVike55 on Jan 25, 2012 10:57 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
How us it "criticizing"
To point out that they are the ones who have twice rejected a proposed new Ramsey County tax to fund AH?
they didn't reject a tax
they rejected the idea of Ramsey County raising taxes without a voter referendum, which would be against the state law….that voters across the state had voted for on a statewide referendum.
So much is wrong here
The state law that requires a referendum was not, itself, created by referendum. It’s just a law passed like every other law, which is why the legislature can pass another law that waives it. (Perhaps you are confusing it with the Minneapolis City Charter’s stadium spending cap)
Second, Zellers and Koch didn’t say not to it because they are big fans of referendums. They said no to it because it’s a tax increase and their party campaigned on and pledged no tax increase.
No, he's simply pointing out that by doing what they said they'd do...
…they blocked the Arden Hills stadium plan.
Pssst - Your petty BIAS is showing
silly is bringing party politics into it. It has NO bearing on the matter.
It seems to me that the Minneapolis contingent has undue influence over Sparky Dayton’s flip-flopping. I wonder where that comes from?
The Metrodome site makes the LEAST amount of sense, especially if they are holding the Target Center remodel as a condition. How does THAT make sense for anyone EXCEPT Minneapolis?
This whole things stinks to high heaven like local-thug politics, and Dayton is being led around by the nose….
by TexasVikesFan on Jan 26, 2012 12:02 AM CST up reply actions
How does THAT make sense for anyone EXCEPT Minneapolis?
It is certainly the worst site. But if you only goal is keeping the team in the state of MN and no other site is viable for a variety of political reasons then on that level it makes sense.
When you boil it down all he said was “Many new legislators said they wouldn’t raise taxes. Arden Hills would require them to vote yes in a way that allows them to raise taxes. They won’t do that. By doing what they said they would do they are keeping an Arden Hills stadium from happening.” That’s not a political statement. It’s a factual one.
Perhaps people just need to avoid saying “Tea Party”. It’s why I’ve stuck with “no new taxes” legislators. Because rather than bring in the mess of other political positions (which can still vary legislator by legislator regardless of affiliation) it focuses on a single group that do share a policy position and it is a policy position that directly impacts the stadium process.
The same is true of “no public money for any stadium” legislators or “no public money if it directly benefits a single private entity” legislators. Or even “no public money for sites that require infrastructure investments already made in downtown” legislators. Or “no gambling changes” legislators. Or even those legislators who take the opposite position on any of these issues.
While the positions I list are typically found withing a specific political party or group affiliation they do not have to be. They each play a role in this mess. What role they play varies based on the site in question because each site impacts their policy preferences differently.
by GoAUpher on Jan 26, 2012 11:38 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
It's a giant puzzle.
In the end this stadium bill is a political puzzle. If you want your favorite site to pass you have to figure out how to fit the different types of legislators together in a way that gets you to passage.
By the way
I also don’t understand how people who support public money for a Vikings stadium are opposed to money to renovate the Timberwolves’ arena.
How does THAT make sense in any way?
Especially when
The public money for the renovation is coming from a tax that applies only to the city of Minneapolis.
All it takes... is $7.30 per minnesotan for 30 years
It is lunch money for a SINGLE day. (We all need lunch, so one day won’t hurt you)
It’s less than the cost of a 6 pack of beer.
It’s less than going to the local coffee shop and getting your favorite coffee in the morning for a week.
It’s less than parking downtown for a day.
I could go on but you get the point. It’s a drop in the bucket.
A year of Vikings entertainment for $7.30 is an absolute no brainer. It’s a value added bonanza.
Seriously, the MN Government has better things to do than dig trenches over any roadblocks on a stadium deal at the preferred location of the Vikings ( Arden Hills ). We can all win.
All it takes is $7.30 per Minnesotan, or less ( the $7.30 is the average cost per resident for the $1.1 billion in full, or $0.02 cents a day)
Anything more is politics doing dirty work and trying to make everyone happy (eg: I’ll do the deal if there’s something in it for me. What’s in it for me? a 27% cut and make it an even $10. By golly, 27% cut could cover some pressing bills or pet project’s I’d like to do. Do you think for one second you’ll know the behind the scenes work tilting some $$ their way? Nah. Politics is about sending the right message that the simple public understands (aka, ‘no taxes’ or you’re getting screwed anyway by something that looks like a tax but it isn’t as long as you ‘get what you want’)
Time for some more popcorn.
Vikings in 2012 will be a Wonder-ful year. Seriously!!
I also love the game of golf. My favorite golf GPS app is OptimalClub.
It is hands down the BEST golf aid you'll ever have for club distances
under current elevation and weather conditions. Stop guessing & score low!
by VikesFanSince1967 on Jan 26, 2012 7:57 AM CST up reply actions
Yeah
Minnesota has better things to do….like pay off debts rather than create new ones, fix bridges, roads, schools, etc.
If you have proposals to do those things
I’m all ears.
But here we are talking about whether to bring in new revenues to make a specific investment. There is just no tradeoff between doing that and doing the other things you mention.
soooo why should the state legislature overturn a requirement
THAT THE VOTERS PUT INTO PLACE WITH A REFERENDUM ON THE BALLOT?
The voters didn't put anything into place
As mentioned further above. The legistlature created the law requiring a referendum, not the voters.. Therefore the legistlature has the power and right to change that law. They did exactly that to help fund the Twins’ new stadium.
He who writes the law can change the law. If I set a curfew for my child, I have the right and power to modify or even suspend the curfew for special occasions.
Bs
If target center gets funding, what’s stopping the excel center from raising a fuss,,, they are direct competitors,,,rybek (dbag) claims he would be open to forming some sort of partnership with the excel, to try to ensure some sort of competitive balance…bunch more political bullshit from the minneapolis mafia…….
by Toes110 on Jan 25, 2012 8:49 PM CST via Android app reply actions
It's mostly related
to the fact that it’s a Minneapolis (Hennepin?) tax that would be the local funding for it and they want to improve a building that’s in their city with some of the money they are contributing. Why would they contribute money to help with a competing town’s building.
Yup
It’s Minneaolis’ tax revenue that’s being shifted to fund a new stadium in Minneapolis. What I don’t get is why they need to tie the Target Center rennovation to the Vikings new stadium. Why can’t they reallocate tax revenue to the Target Center independent of reallocating tax revenue to a new Vikings stadium? It’s their money.
You're finally coming around Ted!
I’m glad to see that you’re showing a hint of optimism here. I really do think we’re very close to having a deal in place. All the bitching and moaning at this point is all posturing as they continue to negotiate.
Ponder. Peterson. Percy. Purple Perfection.
by CCNorsemen on Jan 25, 2012 8:54 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
Ummmm, yeah
Target center was remodeled in 2005 ,2006…. So….yeah why do they need to be remodeled again???
by Toes110 on Jan 25, 2012 10:19 PM CST via Android app reply actions
You would have to ask the mayor
"Go hard. I mean, like relentless. I want a bunch of coaches that coach like their hair’s on fire, and I want a football team that goes for four to six seconds (per play) with relentless effort." OSU Coach Urban Meyer.
opps
sorry I was wrong it was remodeled in 2004…..In 2004, Target Center underwent a major renovation that saw the replacement of all 19,006 of its original seats plus the addition of nearly 1,500 new seats as well as the reconfiguration of the lower bowl to make the arena more fan-friendly.[citation needed] In addition the arena’s original scoreboard was replaced with a new state-of-the-art 9-by-16 foot video screen and state-of-the-art LED signage, LED signage on the upper deck fascia, a new luxury lounge (Club Cambria) and improved access for fans with disabilities…… …… so yeah I guess they really need to be upgraded again…..
and when was the last time the Metrodome was remodeled?
It was newer than 2004. So why isn’t that sufficient? It’s not like revenues vs costs have changed much since then.
The
Metrodome had not been sufficient in the past 15 years..it has one of the, if not the smallest foot print in the nfl, as far as stadiums go…….
by Toes110 on Jan 26, 2012 8:47 PM CST via Android app up reply actions
so it has one of the smallest footprints...
how does expanding the footprint but having the same capacity make it sufficient?
Better Fan Experience + More Revenue
More room in the concourses to move around getting to and from concessions, restrooms, souvenir stands. More restrooms, more spacious restrooms. More concession stands (= smaller lines). Better handicap access. Bigger locker rooms. More/better team support facilities (medical, training and treatment, etc.). More suite space (= more revenue).
You're quoting a... French... general?
You left out a few things about Foch.
“He conducted the Artois Offensive, and, in 1916, the French part of the Battle of the Somme. He was strongly criticised for his tactics and the heavy casualties that were suffered by the Allied armies during these battles, and in December 1916 was removed from command.”
If you want to compare a general to our desire for a stadium , please leave the French out of it. We want the stadium built, not to get bogged down in lack of fresh thought and initiative.
Btw, I bought a French rifle at a gun show not long ago. It was in great shape. It had only been thrown away in panic once.
"Never approach a bull from the front, a horse from the rear, or a fool from any direction." - Old Cowboy proverb.
You have to admit
though he does have a killer mustache! Love the Quote. Incidentally one of the reasons that the Schlieffen plan failed is because of the Russian army’s march on Prussia. the Germans diverted forces from the western front to help defend against the invading Russian army and as a result a hole opened up in the middle of the German wing. this prevented the Germans from continuing their envelopment of Allied forces. Ironically the Russian army was crushed before the reenforcement reached the easter front.
Will the Real Thor Please Stand Up ... ?
by the Real Thor on Jan 25, 2012 11:49 PM CST up reply actions
I've shown this link to Ted before
but here’s a very well written site that you and some of the boys might enjoy. You might already be familiar with it – “Bad Ass of the Week”. The entry about Churchill is one of the better ones.
http://www.badassoftheweek.com/list.html
Build up your weaknesses until they become your strong points." --Knute Rockne
Any French General
that attacks instead of surrendering is worthy of accolade.
I thought it was an old pic
Of Teds father till i read the caption ;)
by Lunchpail on Jan 26, 2012 12:25 AM CST via mobile reply actions 3 recs
I thought
it was Ted himself…..DOH!
Just kidding Ted, I’ve seen your pic when you had it up, you don’t look a day over 100, I swear.
;-)
lol
Gentlemen! You can't fight in here, this is a war room!
by VikesFaninNM on Jan 26, 2012 2:28 PM CST up reply actions
honestly...
I thought it was a photoshopped Dayton pic at first.
Breathing
but still not uncrossing my fingers until things are signed sealed and delivered. But I do commend Wilf for going with this even though non one was wanting it.
Gentlemen! You can't fight in here, this is a war room!
A crappy site...
…with a state of the art facility that makes the team financially healthy beats the heck out of losing the team altogether.
But if it goes downtown, I’ll lament what could have been a marvelous asset to the community for a long, long time.
by Lars in SLP on Jan 26, 2012 4:15 PM CST via mobile reply actions
I think your metaphor with AH (Arden Hills, not Austria-Hungary, even with all the WWI talk)...
…Is overly pessimistic. Rather than all of the Miss America contestants, it’s more like getting to second base with that bombshell at the bar who is still sober and has rejected 20 advances already. It’s unlikely, but still plausible, so going for it, while perhaps showing unrealistic optimism, is courageous, not sad, as it would be to even think that one could pick up EVERY Miss America contestant.
On the other hand...
if that bombshell at the bar happens to be a working girl, then all you have to do is open your wallet and pull out a couple benjamins, and she’s yours for the next 60 minutes.
All Zygi has to do is increase his investment by $300 million or so, and most of the political issues dragging AH down disappear. When Zygi compares the extra money in his pocket that’ll come from developing the area around the stadium in AH vs. the extra money in his pocket that’ll come from developing the area around the stadium in downtown, he may decide its worth upping his contribution to the stadium.
I don't understand
if the pro stadium people claim that the state needs to ensure that a new or raise in county tax referendum does not get on the ballot so it doesn’t get defeated….regardless of county….then how can they argue that there are more pro stadium supporters?
Who said there were?
But the question is the relative strength of their position on tax money for stadiums versus the team moving.
I’m pretty confident that a lot more people will be ticked off about the team leaving than who currently support spending tax money on a stadium. That’s because there is a significant chunk of fans out there who are delusional enough to believe that they can have their cake and eat it too — that the Vikese won’t leave even if they don’t get a subsidized stadium.
I have often read in comments sections about the stadium where
the pro stadium people state that the “majority of voters” will send these legislators packing if they don’t approve the publicly funded stadium…..yet they are afraid of ballot measures they believe the majority of voters will shoot down. I myself am ok with the Vikings leaving. It goes along the lines of this: The monetary payback….to keep the vikings and their 20 million dollar taxes, the state will have to pay over 300 million. To keep things simple….if I told you that you could make 20 cents by giving me 30 dollars, and if you didn’t give me 30 dollars that I would move and you would lose your 20 cents…you would say…ok, so “I lose 20 cents, but I save 30 dollars….I am net 29.80…I win…take that 20 cents and shove it”….it’s the same concept here…just the dollar amounts are bigger.
Read more carefully
Also, there is a big difference between voting out those who let hem leave and voting for the money.
Also, this is a Vikings fan site. You are clearly not a fan. Why are you here?
Bad Math
Um, the $20 million in taxes occurs annually. As in EACH AND EVERY YEAR that the team is here in Minnesota. The Vikings have said they’d sign a 40 year lease for the new stadium. So you have to take $20 million PER YEAR and multiply times 40 years. That gets you $800 million.
The state contribution a one-time contribution of $300 million.
So the state pitches in $300 million and gets $800 million in tax revenue in return. That’s an annual return of 6.675%. How is this a bad deal for the state?
Some experts believe that with a new stadium, the Vikings tax bill will increase to $30 million PER YEAR, so now were comparing a $300 million investment to a $1.2 BILLION return.
Of course the dilusional members of the viewing audience are saying “yeah, but the state is getting $20 million per year from the Vikings now. Why do we need to pay $300 million to keep collecting what we’re already collecting?” And that’s a valid point, but one that completely ignores that there’s competition for that $20 miillon per year payout. LA isn’t ready today, but they could be down the road. So could some other city. Anyone that believes the Vikings would never leave Minnesota is playing Russion roullette with $20 million per year.
Long time DN reader, first time poster. I had to get an account to vent about the stadium, because the toxicity at the Strib is unbearable. Even talking about the screwups going on INSIDE a Vikings football stadium was easier to read than everyone else screwing up what goes on outside of one!
Frostbite Falls, Minnesota
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