Minnesota Vikings Officially Name Rick Spielman General Manager
by Christopher Gates on Jan 3, 2012 10:26 AM CST
in Minnesota Vikings
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PrintAfter firing Mike Tice shortly after the 2005 season finale, new Minnesota Vikings' owner Zygi Wilf set up his football operation under a "Triangle of Authority" that included head coach Brad Childress, Vice President of Player Personnel Fran Foley, and Vice President of Football Operations/Salary Cap Genius Rob Brzezinski. After the 2006 NFL Draft, Foley was relieved of his duties and replaced with Rick Spielman, who had previously served as the General Manager of the Miami Dolphins.
The "Triangle of Authority" has always been a bit of a ridiculous concept, as it created confusion in the draft room and in player personnel decisions. Viking fans have long clamored for the team to hire a General Manager to have final say over all of those decisions. That's exactly what happened today, as it was announced that Rick Spielman has, indeed, been promoted to the role of General Manager of the Minnesota Vikings.
As the linked article from KFAN.com points out, the Vikings have been sort of up-and-down personnel-wise during the time Spielman has been a part of the team, but hopefully that will change with Spielman being the final voice in the various personnel decisions that will take place with this football team.
Spielman will be joining Coach Leslie Frazier at his press conference at 1 PM Central time. The press conference will be carried by KFAN, so you can either tune it in on your radio, or listen to the live stream here.
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This is a good move for the Vikings
Whether or not you like Spielman, it at least makes someone accountable for personal decisions. My only question is, does Rick have the ability to make changes to the coaching staff or does Ziggy still need to approve?
Billick: "What did McNabb do to deserve being benched?"
Answer: He upset PETA by killing every worm he came across on a football field.
Not sure I like the move, wasn't spielman behind the ponder reach?
If so, he should be fired, not promoted.
Also, what was his record as GM in Miami?
by los vikingos on Jan 3, 2012 10:37 AM CST up reply actions
If he was behind the pick he should have been promoted long ago.
Billick: "What did McNabb do to deserve being benched?"
Answer: He upset PETA by killing every worm he came across on a football field.
by TroyW18 on Jan 3, 2012 10:39 AM CST up reply actions 5 recs
You only come around to spread Negativity.
Are you a Vikings fan? (After all your screenname doesn’t even say Vikings) or Revenge4Favre?
☠★☪Creator of http://skolnation.co.cc and dedicated DN reader.
by UnBannedVikingholic on Jan 3, 2012 10:47 AM CST up reply actions 3 recs
Change your name
to los parade crappers
by Jepp The Viking on Jan 3, 2012 10:47 AM CST up reply actions 4 recs
I am a huge Vike fan, been so for 42 years
but you are right, pardon the negativity, cant say i’m excited. Would like to see more wholesale changes. Like having brought in Polian for example.
The way I see the ponder pick, is that the team drafted for need, panicked when Locker was drafted by the Titans, and reached. The person behind that move is not someone you hand the football operations to…. Sorry, but just me .
by los vikingos on Jan 3, 2012 10:55 AM CST up reply actions
It's fine to express what you think the team should do
but you don’t take that approach. You scream, yell, name call and do everything else that even isn’t necessary when sharing your opinion.
☠★☪Creator of http://skolnation.co.cc and dedicated DN reader.
by UnBannedVikingholic on Jan 3, 2012 11:00 AM CST up reply actions
no, i just scream when people insult me for being down on Ponder.
maybe this site is not the place to have an anti ponder opinion
by los vikingos on Jan 3, 2012 11:04 AM CST up reply actions
I'm pretty sure it's not what you say it's
how and when you say it.
☠★☪Creator of http://skolnation.co.cc and dedicated DN reader.
by UnBannedVikingholic on Jan 3, 2012 11:09 AM CST up reply actions 3 recs
because one can tell so much about tone of voice
from typing in all lowercase letters.
I feel you should be able to say your opinion
I think people’s problem with your option above is that after this craptacular season people are looking for positive change(part of being a Vikings fan to me is blind optimism) and this move, whether or not he’s the right guy, is a step in the right direction. We need a guy to have the final say and we got him.
As far as the “ponder reach” that has been beat to death on here. Anyway the word I was hearing is ponder was always the guy they wanted even over locker. And the fact is ponder put up very comparable numbers to some of the great qb’s in their first season. Wether that means he will himself be great, or considered a reach, cannot IMO be determined yet in his young career.
by reebs on Jan 3, 2012 11:16 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
It's all about the substance
If you want to say Mauer’s untalented and can’t play, well, then you are an idiot. If you want to say the team can’t afford Mauer’s contract or that Mauer needs to do more to stay healthy or that he’s not worth his contract unless he can catch, I think you’ll be fine.
Similarly, if you want to question Ponder’s arm strength, his durability, or his accuracy downfield, you’re not going to catch a lot of flack.
But if you’re just going to hate on him because of where he was drafted or because you liked Webb better or something else that looks irrational and/or irrelevant at this stage, I think you are rightly not going to face a friendly reception.
well stated
"At this point, what we got to lose, right? So we might as well throw caution to the wind and hit people in the face."
--Vikings DE Jared Allen
I think that Mauers
supposed durability issues have been thoroughly debunked on twinkie town. or was it aarongleeman.com? what ever, something like only 5 catchers in all of the MLB have caught more innings then Mauer since he came into the league. boy, that sure is one none durable catcher.
Will the Real Thor Please Stand Up ... ?
by the Real Thor on Jan 3, 2012 9:58 PM CST up reply actions
I question the Ponder pick too, but...
The way I see the ponder pick, is that the team drafted for need, panicked when Locker was drafted by the Titans, and reached.
That sequence of events may or may not be true, but it’s a reasonable perspective. After I picked myself up off the floor last April, I wondered if that’s what happened as well.
For what it’s worth, I think people are reacting to how you express your views on Ponder. It’s certainly your right to say Ponder sucks, but I can see how that might come across as throwing a match onto a combustible topic. I think you could add a lot to the discussion by letting us know why you hold the opinions that you do. You clearly aren’t afraid to give your opinion (which is a good thing), but I for one would like to see more of why you think what you think.
"Man invented language to satisfy his deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
I think it's the suck thing
I don’t think that’s fair to the young man.
If you want to say he was a reach when drafted, that’s fine. If you want to say you haven’t been impressed so far, I guess that’s find too.
But he’s a rookie who was put in a difficult situation. Writing him off completely isn’t going to be popular on a fan site where people are going to want to give him the benefit of the doubt.
Let's spare the Peyton Manning comparisons
It’s a bit early for those. Manning was the #1 overall draft pick. No one said the colts reached when they drafted him. Peyton Manning took every snap his rookie year, throwing for nearly 4,000 yards and 26 TDs.
We’re all hoping that Ponder becomes the next Manning, but it’s too early for those comparisons.
"At this point, what we got to lose, right? So we might as well throw caution to the wind and hit people in the face."
--Vikings DE Jared Allen
Where did I compare him to Manning?
Work on reading comprehension perhaps? I am just saying based on #s oPnder actually had a better rookie season than Manning. So lets give him a year or two before he gets totally thrown under the bus.
Wow....working on attitude perhaps?
He didnt call your mom ugly man, just chill.
And you should read the board more….
Had i brought up say..Aikman, the statement would of been, lets not start compairing him to Aikman too…Its nothing personal.
You invoke the name of ANY other QB, and its compairing.
2011 Vikings, keeping the liquor industry in the green ALL YEAR LONG!
Actually,
Had i said, He will be _ to peyton manning, that is a comparison. Technically, if anything I was comparing the Colts FO to the Vikes FO, as it would be the FO and not the PLAYERS that would have let him go.
Chillax bro
no need to get huffy just because some one called you on your bogus comparison. And it was a comparison between Ponder and Manning no matter how you spin it. Your rebuttle even included a comparison between the two so obviously that was your intent.
I am just saying based on #s oPnder actually had a better rookie season than Manning.
And just what numbers would those be? Yards? No. Completion %? Nope. Wins? Negative. TD passes? Not close. TD/INT Ratio? Equal.
"At this point, what we got to lose, right? So we might as well throw caution to the wind and hit people in the face."
--Vikings DE Jared Allen
by NMVike on Jan 3, 2012 1:37 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
He said it
We heard it. No need to repeat it with every single post of his. Now he can take his “Ponder sucks” and suck on it.
Really, that adds nothing to the conversation at this point in time unless he has magically created a time machine and is able to transport us back to last year’s draft where we can pick someone else.
I like both QBs and am not willing to throw Ponder away just yet and I do not think Webb did himself any major favors during the last game. We are still developing them and they need time. Give the kid AT LEAST another season with some off season prep work. Geez.
I think I read the same story about Ponder being drafted out of panic by Spielman, in here (on DN).
If true, it certainly casts a question on his promotion (and to some extent on high hopes with Ponder’s abilities).
Hopefully Ponder will prove everyone wrong next season by throwing TD passes to Percy, Reggie W and Stevie J, with Kalil standing in front of him all this time :)
Somewhat unrelated but not to forget ‘Da Man’: looking forward to Ponder handing the ball over to AD, right from the season opener.
No thanks on Stevie.
He can keep his 15-yard penalties in Buffalo. We already have a deep threat WR with catching issues in Aromashodu.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Jan 3, 2012 5:19 PM CST up reply actions
Aromaticshoe....
Hes great for like 6 grabs…and then its in his contract he has to drop the next 2-3 minimum!
2011 Vikings, keeping the liquor industry in the green ALL YEAR LONG!
i'm sorry, are you implying Stevie Johnson has drop issues...??
We already have a deep threat WR with catching issues in Aromashodu.
i direct you to the following:
http://www.dailynorseman.com/2011/12/30/2671546/potential-vikings-free-agent-signings#87426898
"Th_r_'s n_ h_p_ f_r _ssh_l_ f_ckw_ts."
Can I buy a vowel...?? +1, Kluwe.
Thank you rj-b.
Stevie was on my team 2nd year in the running. I finished third this year in my league.
His maturity issues are really not issues in my opinion. As MarkSP put it, the guy just seems to want to have fun…doesn’t kill animals..doesn’t rape women..doesn’t beat up girlfriends..doesn’t shoot himself or others..I like him. I would love for him to be a Viking.
I think promoting Speilman
is a way to make him responsible, and therefore accountable….meaning he can be fired for not doing his job effectively.
I don't think there was panic over Locker being picked
so much as it was that they could not reliably trade down in the draft and still count on Ponder being there. Scuttlebutt is that both Wash and Miami were looking at Ponder, so they had no choice but to take Ponder at 12 since he was their guy all along.
Will the Real Thor Please Stand Up ... ?
by the Real Thor on Jan 3, 2012 10:02 PM CST up reply actions
LOL POLIAN.
LOL.
@JayKlinkhammer
jayklinkhammer.tumblr.com
by y2jayjk on Jan 3, 2012 1:09 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
He will be going into his 22nd year
as an NFL executive, I don’t think guys with bad track records last 22 years in the NFL. This is great news, can’t wait to see how this off-season shapes up in regard to the draft and FA signings.
"You can write articles and do whatever you want, you can break down every player. Good, bad or ugly. But we just aren't good enough as a team, as a group. Offensively, defensively and special teams, from the No. 1 on the roster to the last man on the roster. We just aren't good enough. It's as simple as that." - Chad Greenway
anyone hear of Martz?
Somehow, Eric Mangini keeps getting jobs in the NFL. Trent Dilfer had a long career, not quite 22 yrs, but longer than most mediocre QB’s. Matt Millen, anyone? Any executive responsible for the last 20 yrs of Lions crappiness (past 3 yrs excluded) forced out of the league? Not to my knowledge.
Ponder Reach....
Christ Almighty this pisses me off!!!! Give the guy a FULL offseason AND an NFL caliber Offensive line before proclaiming him a “reach”…I don’t give a shit if you’ve been a “fan” for 42 years….that doesn’t make you a valid talent appraiser….just an armchair hack….if FranTarkenton says he’s O.K., maybe you should hold your comments about him for a year or so…..
"Ya just can't fix stupid....."
To me
It’s more that I don’t care whether he was a reach at the time. Whether he “should” have been drafted later is irrelevant. The question now is whether he can do the job, and where he was drafted says exactly nothing to answer that question.
They already had an article about this during the season
and it showed now that Ponder would have gone #2 or #3 behind newton and possible Dalton
You mean
The only 3 drafted QBs playing…
So of the 3 playing, he would of been #3….seriously, thats a stupid poll.
2011 Vikings, keeping the liquor industry in the green ALL YEAR LONG!
It was not a poll
It was by Gil Brandt, formerly of the Cowboys. I believe he was considered to be #2, behind Newton and I am unsure in front of Dalton. You also forget that Gabbert was picked before him as was Locker. Both have played.
A game or 2?
While the starter was injured. Neither have been the teams starter for 5+ games.
And if anyone put him in front of Dalton, who took the damn Bengels for gods sake to the playoffs, they are stupid.
I still wish we had drafted Prince and taken a QB in the 2nd. But oh well…guess we get another year of shit pass coverage, baring they keep Cook and convince all of the other teams to put pics of his girlfriend on their helmets
2011 Vikings, keeping the liquor industry in the green ALL YEAR LONG!
Ponder was not meant to be the starter this year either, so you can not use that excuse. OF the 5 Qbs taken in the 1st round, he is the second rated one, so thats not too bad actually considering how god aweful our O-line play was
Um who rated him 2nd?
He was suppose to take over when ready…so, he played enough and saw enough he was the started for like 3/4 of the season.
If he wasnt evevn the starter, rating him anywhere is even sillier when you had 2 guys start this year and one of which took their craptastic team to the playoffs…the other is his competitor for rookie of the year…
Sorry Ponder as of right now, is nowhere near either of those guys.
2011 Vikings, keeping the liquor industry in the green ALL YEAR LONG!
The article that myself and Murgo had read.
Pretty much every draft Pundet started changing their views from reach to pretty good pick after he started playing. I will see if i can find the article again and I will post it here if you would like to read it?
Where would Webb have been drafted?
How much has his stock improved?
by vking1 on Jan 3, 2012 1:42 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
That link was only if the most recent draft was to be done again knowing what we know now.
Webb isn’t a rookie
Billick: "What did McNabb do to deserve being benched?"
Answer: He upset PETA by killing every worm he came across on a football field.
Third QB
In that article they have Ponder going #5 overall, but as the third QB after Newton and Dalton being selected #1 and #2 respectively.
Though it was way too early to write that article, especially when you see that they have Blaine Gabbert still going to the Jags @ #10 overall.
I wish they had...
Then we may of had a different outcome this year.
But theyve hitched the wagon to him, and are not in any way going to develop Webb it seems….so lets hope he does something next year to make EVERYONE happy.
2011 Vikings, keeping the liquor industry in the green ALL YEAR LONG!
Gabbert has started a lot of games this season.
Most of them, if I’m not mistaken. To help with the timeline, I saw this article too and it was before Ponder’s rough stretch when he actually was (arguably) playing better than Dalton. So maybe chill a little bit.
Call me a prude (which I’m definitely not, but you can if it makes you happy) but domestic assault jokes still aren’t funny. Last I checked, anyway.
it wasnt a domestic assault joke
as much as it was a, our secondary sucks more then donkeys joke.
If you think im making jokes about that, feel free to check my other posts on the matter.
Ponders rough start? ok he won A game if im correct right? Or was I watching another team this year? And that was his first start game against Carolina.
If we end up with another less then 5 win season next year…its going to suck and someone is going to have to start realizing where the problem is. The bandwagon can only go so far.
Im more then willing to give the kid another year, but im sorry, looking at Dalton, in the playoffs…i have buyers remorse.
2011 Vikings, keeping the liquor industry in the green ALL YEAR LONG!
Well,
Dalton has a much, MUCH better team than Ponder does. It’s not even funny the difference in talent levels between the supporting cast of the Bengals and the supporting cast of the Vikings. And while Ponder only got one win, he had a hot start. He was doing really well there before the three game slump. You might have been watching a different team if you think that Ponder didn’t have a good few games when he first came in. Then he started getting hit. Then he started getting gun shy.
Snarky comments are no fun.
that's funny
because most people up here suggest that the only reason why Webb has done well was because the defenses had no film of him to digest. But Ponder started out fine, but it’s not because the lack of film for opposing defenses to digest….gotta love the double standards
Grizzly is right
Cinci has one of the best pass protecting lines in the league, while most rankings have our line dead last. I’d say their wr’s are better overall and they have some darn good te’s.
I don’t think Webb was exactly burning up the air either and the reason he had successes at times was his amazing ability to scramble away from all the dudes our line let come right through.
I see no double standard here…maybe in other threads but I don’t see what that would have to do with a dalton/cinci-ponder/mn comparison.
by reebs on Jan 3, 2012 6:43 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
I didn't say that, though.
That obviously contributes to it. The defenses weren’t sure what to expect with Ponder, he surprised them, they figured him out, and because he’s a rookie, he had a hard time adjusting. I’m a Ponder supporter, or at the very least an “I think Ponder should be given more time before he is burned in effigy” guy. The truth is, young QBs will struggle when game planned against because they don’t have the benefit of years of working around opposing teams’ game plans for them. Ponder is not a 12 or 13 or 20 year vet like we’re used to. He’s a rookie and we need to work with him. We will work with Webb as well. Will he get the chance to play? Yes. Ponder may get hurt or whatever and Webb will go in. Do I think he’ll start? Barring Joe Webb becoming a complete QB before next season who can many any and all throws and Ponder regressing to Brady Quinn type levels, no. It may not be fair but that’s the way it goes in the NFL. The Vikings organization have put their faith in Ponder and believe he will be the guy. Now he needs to go out and prove that he can fulfill that.
I actually agree with you
but I have seen so many comments about Webb’s success being due to defenses being unable to properly prepare for him, and when I saw your comment
“And while Ponder only got one win, he had a hot start.”
I thought the implication was that Webb’s hot start was a fluke while Ponder’s hot start meant that Ponder should be given the starting role.
So, misunderstanding on my part. Sorry bout that.
Oh, no.
I think Webb’s hot start can be attributed to him being a freakish athlete and excelling when plays break down. He’s a really good player. But I just believe that as long as Ponder continues to show improvement, he’ll be the guy. The front office has hitched their wagon to him and now they need to ride it out for the long haul. Unless something crazy happens. Haha I don’t think either hot starts were flukes. They can both make plays. Just in different ways.
To be Fair
that Bengals team has a much better Oline then we do, and they also drafted an absolute stud WR for Dalton to throw too. and if the Vikes didn’t take Ponder 12, then either Wash or Miami does in the 1st. then what? Dalton is gone by the time we get to draft again in the second, so then we don’t get any QB worth taking. Not taking Ponder 12 means not getting a QB in that draft period.
Will the Real Thor Please Stand Up ... ?
by the Real Thor on Jan 3, 2012 10:11 PM CST up reply actions
Its all speculation.
I Dont see us in a WORSE place now had we taken say Prince and run with Webb however. Then what, we’d be getting Luck?
Or RG3? I mean honestly I dont see us in a BETTER place making that pic then we are now.
Its painful to pick so high a year after drafting a QB is all. I have no problem giving the kid a full year, but if we draft top 5 next year, someone needs to admit this wasnt a great idea.
2011 Vikings, keeping the liquor industry in the green ALL YEAR LONG!
by LeeleeX on Jan 3, 2012 10:41 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Just curious
Do you think Ponder should be crowned starting quarterback, or should there be an open competition between him and Webb?
I’m for an open competition myself.
I think Webb earned that
With his play while Ponder was hurt.
Wishey washey....
No….no QB controversy….get behind your First round draft pick and roll with him….Joe is a freak of an athlete, but not an NFL caliber QB…
"Ya just can't fix stupid....."
Then at least you're consistent
And I see you’re point. The QB is the leader on the field and in the locker room and a QB controversy undermines that authority to some degree.
That said, after what Webb has shown in Philadelphia last year and in spots this season I think it’s unfair (to say the least) that he shouldn’t even be given a shot to win the job. Ponder didn’t get an offseason and Webb has been jerked around between receiver and QB. A competition seems like the most equitable solution, but it’s far from ideal.
The most equitable solution is trade trade Joe Webb
His value is probably pretty high and they could probably fetch a third rd pick for him. Thus double their ROI
No way do I believe that the Vikes would get a 3rd rounder for Webb
That’s wishful thinking.
"At this point, what we got to lose, right? So we might as well throw caution to the wind and hit people in the face."
--Vikings DE Jared Allen
I don't know about that
Oak gave up 2 first rounders for Carson Palmer and also gave up a third for Tyrel Pryor.
only 1
If they had made the playoffs then 2, but they only ended up having to give up 1 since they didnt make the playoffs.
2011 Vikings, keeping the liquor industry in the green ALL YEAR LONG!
price of tea in China?
I didnt say trade him lol.
I want him to be developed lol, hes a great player.
2011 Vikings, keeping the liquor industry in the green ALL YEAR LONG!
I think he has at least 2 years left on his contract
So you have another year to let him develop. If he has a strong pre-season or a good couple of drives in the season teams will probably be ready to give at least a 2nd rounder or even a deal like Philly got for Kolb.
by Simply_Greatness on Jan 3, 2012 5:34 PM CST up reply actions
Why trade him?
At the rate it looks like Mr Hippy Shake may go down…keeping him in the background has worked out rather well so far.
2011 Vikings, keeping the liquor industry in the green ALL YEAR LONG!
We have Rosefels
who else do we need as a backup? He can teach Ponder to fly.
My point is we have time to see and if Ponder goes down and Webb steals the show you can hopefully cut your losses and get something for Ponder.
by Simply_Greatness on Jan 3, 2012 5:51 PM CST up reply actions
I love that you'd are so quick to bail on Ponder and anoint Webb
What has Webb done?
Billick: "What did McNabb do to deserve being benched?"
Answer: He upset PETA by killing every worm he came across on a football field.
he's won more games
for the Vikings in less starts…with the same supporting cast….make it an open competition.
Did you see what happens when a team has even a half time to adjust?
Billick: "What did McNabb do to deserve being benched?"
Answer: He upset PETA by killing every worm he came across on a football field.
we saw that with McNabb
as well. That’s a problem with our coaching staff rather than our players.
But I agree with the open competition thing
Billick: "What did McNabb do to deserve being benched?"
Answer: He upset PETA by killing every worm he came across on a football field.
I'm not bailing on either
I’m saying we have time to figure out who we think will be the better option to move forward on and then hopefully we can trade the other for some kind of value.
by Simply_Greatness on Jan 3, 2012 6:14 PM CST up reply actions
Seriously I like Sage but...
Really? OMG man….
2011 Vikings, keeping the liquor industry in the green ALL YEAR LONG!
I'm sorry...
I forgot the sarcasm font
We have Rosefels...
who else do we need as a backup? He can teach
Ponder to fly.
by Simply_Greatness on Jan 4, 2012 7:30 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
It might not be.
Didn’t Seattle swap 2nd rounders and give a 3rd for Charlie Whitehurst?
Charlie.
Freakin.
Whitehurst.
They started TJack...
Brains, not on the menu in Seattle….
2011 Vikings, keeping the liquor industry in the green ALL YEAR LONG!
how bad are you when...
TJack beats you out with a torn pec muscle
by midnightwonder on Jan 4, 2012 2:02 PM CST up reply actions
Thats the head coach...
In Preseason Charlie actually looked better then Tjack
2011 Vikings, keeping the liquor industry in the green ALL YEAR LONG!
This isn't politics
And I don’t think decisiveness gets you anything. Both guys need to work their tails off and demonstrate they they should be the guy.
Joe is a freak of an athlete,but not an NFL caliber QB...
Based on what?? I think both QB’s have a high upside if the O-line is improved. The Webb bashers seem to think Ponder will improve, but Webb won’t. Remember that Webb came from a small school and has been running the scout team. Ponder came from Florida State and has been receiving first string repetitions. Big difference . Everyone is making excuses for Ponder, yet nitpicking Webb, and all Webb does is perform. That was a very good Chicago Bears defense that the Vikings faced on Sunday. Most plays Joe was running for his life, yet when he had time, he made some very impressive throws. For some reason people are hung up on the notion that athletes can’t play QB. I think that in the future, that will become the norm. Joe can sit in the pocket and throwthe when he has time, and he can play in this league.
by vking1 on Jan 3, 2012 1:57 PM CST via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
I think people get sick of it
Because both sides use the same arguments against one another. You can use those arguments/excuses for Webb or Ponder. Either way I doubt either side was able to change the other sides mind.
Billick: "What did McNabb do to deserve being benched?"
Answer: He upset PETA by killing every worm he came across on a football field.
I'm not a Ponder basher...
I think both QB’s could be very good. I just want a fair competition. Like I said, its been excuses for Ponder and nitpicking for Webb. And Webb has been producing.
by vking1 on Jan 3, 2012 2:20 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
Well if you follow the threads after Webb got some playing time
It was quite the opposite. Excuses for Webb and nitpicking for Ponder. I think MN is so used to using Vets we don’t know how to be patient with either instead of clamoring for the flash in a pan.
Billick: "What did McNabb do to deserve being benched?"
Answer: He upset PETA by killing every worm he came across on a football field.
that, and how many are affected by the "quick-fix mentality"...
…brought on by the fast-food-ification of Twitter nation, compounded by the short-term memory of a lost season…??
i think we’re all still coping with the ‘09 season. hell, i’m still coping with the ‘98 season. it’s tough to get so close only to crumble so quickly.
you’re right — everyone needs to step back, take a breath and be patient.
"Th_r_'s n_ h_p_ f_r _ssh_l_ f_ckw_ts."
Can I buy a vowel...?? +1, Kluwe.
Good one.
…brought on by the fast-food-ification of Twitter nation, compounded by the short-term memory of a lost season…??
This would rank among my favorite comments at DN… even if you might be implying that it applies to me and people who think like me. :-)
"Man invented language to satisfy his deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
haha -- nah, not implying that at all =)
we’ve all had frustrations for whatever reason throughout the season. i know you and i have had our disagreements re: the QB situation, but after Webb’s performance Sunday i’m certainly more ‘neutral’ than i was before.
if i’m impatient about anything, it’s the frequent indifferent defense from fans for players like Loadholt or Asher Allen, amongst others, who i honestly think have no place on our roster.
"Th_r_'s n_ h_p_ f_r _ssh_l_ f_ckw_ts."
Can I buy a vowel...?? +1, Kluwe.
I'm old
So I’m still coping with the aftermath of the ’70 season (where we dumped a fantastic starting quarterback who helped lead us to the Super Bowl in favor of a series of 3rd-rate quarterbacks before getting Tark back).
And the ‘76 season, our last Super Bowl season, (Tarkenton’s leg was broke in the ‘77 season, and our team started breaking up and going through many coaches who couldn’t get us to the top…)
Patience is in abundance… it is Super Bowl appearances which are in short supply in the last 35 years…
by liveforadrenaline on Jan 3, 2012 4:44 PM CST up reply actions
fair enough
sadly i’m still looking for my first Vikes’ Super Bowl appearance. i commend you for being as patient as you have been…!!
"Th_r_'s n_ h_p_ f_r _ssh_l_ f_ckw_ts."
Can I buy a vowel...?? +1, Kluwe.
Man all I got out of that was fast food...
New Years resolutions were made to be broken right?!
The Vikes aren't in a remodeling or reconstruction they are in a burn the place down and start praying they don't mimic the Lions rebuilding process.
I see this a step in the right direction
Hopefully Spielman is the right choice, but clearly the Wilf’s needed to hire a GM.
"At this point, what we got to lose, right? So we might as well throw caution to the wind and hit people in the face."
--Vikings DE Jared Allen
There is no need to hire a GM now
Spielman is the GM, we don’t need another now…we are trying to move away from having a ton of people in charge
"You can write articles and do whatever you want, you can break down every player. Good, bad or ugly. But we just aren't good enough as a team, as a group. Offensively, defensively and special teams, from the No. 1 on the roster to the last man on the roster. We just aren't good enough. It's as simple as that." - Chad Greenway
was that a response to my comment?
I’m confused
"At this point, what we got to lose, right? So we might as well throw caution to the wind and hit people in the face."
--Vikings DE Jared Allen
Yes his must have
misread your comment as “the Wilf’s needed to hire a REAL GM, instead of promoting Spielman” and not the way you said it.
☠★☪Creator of http://skolnation.co.cc and dedicated DN reader.
by UnBannedVikingholic on Jan 3, 2012 11:19 AM CST up reply actions
yep
I read need a gm instead of needed… regardless I hope he does well, we will need an aggressive off-season to get back into shape
"You can write articles and do whatever you want, you can break down every player. Good, bad or ugly. But we just aren't good enough as a team, as a group. Offensively, defensively and special teams, from the No. 1 on the roster to the last man on the roster. We just aren't good enough. It's as simple as that." - Chad Greenway
UMMM Why is Aaron Rodgers
a nomnimee on NFL.com for the hardest working man this year? If Matt Flynn can put up Aaron Rodger’s numbers in that offense, I have a hard time believing that Aaron Rodgers is the hardest working man in the league this year. Heck that makes me question if he’s even the MVP. Drew Brees should be that guy breaking the passing record this year.
Sidenote: Go vote for Jared! or Gerald..
☠★☪Creator of http://skolnation.co.cc and dedicated DN reader.
by UnBannedVikingholic on Jan 3, 2012 10:37 AM CST reply actions
Correction - Matt Flynn put up Better numbers.
And will hopefully get some consideration as a potential FA signing by the Purple this offseason.
i totally agree
He has the goods. He will be starting in the nfl next year and is more pro ready than any qb in the draft not named luck.luck
just voted
For Jared of course thanks for the heads up
"You can write articles and do whatever you want, you can break down every player. Good, bad or ugly. But we just aren't good enough as a team, as a group. Offensively, defensively and special teams, from the No. 1 on the roster to the last man on the roster. We just aren't good enough. It's as simple as that." - Chad Greenway
Wow....
Did you read the Aaron Rodgers thing? They actually had the gall to give Rodgers credit for Matt Flynn’s performance…
That is kind of infuriating.
Make or break year
I know this move isn’t going to be popular with a lot of people but I like it. I think it’s going to create the structure that this org. desperately needs and it puts Spielman firmly in the crosshairs of accountability for the 2012 off-season and next season. I think he has 1 more year to prove that he knows how to build a consistent winner – or there will be a complete sweep next off-season.
I also think this might put Frazier on the hotseat right now as Spielman did not hire him, and was Not on board with the Donovan McNabb signing that Frazier was so adamant about. The next week or 2 is going to be Very interesting.
Ok since you think he's given a year to prove he can build a winner
what does our record have to be next year to indicate that?
☠★☪Creator of http://skolnation.co.cc and dedicated DN reader.
by UnBannedVikingholic on Jan 3, 2012 10:43 AM CST up reply actions
Not tied with the worst record in franchise history.
That’d be pretty cool.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Jan 3, 2012 11:21 AM CST up reply actions
Does Rick have the ability to fire/hire coaches or is that still with Ziggy?
Billick: "What did McNabb do to deserve being benched?"
Answer: He upset PETA by killing every worm he came across on a football field.
I think Chilly fired himself
so he may hold the power
☠★☪Creator of http://skolnation.co.cc and dedicated DN reader.
by UnBannedVikingholic on Jan 3, 2012 10:48 AM CST up reply actions
I'd assume a GM
has total power. Hence the GM.
by Jepp The Viking on Jan 3, 2012 10:48 AM CST up reply actions
He's totally in charge of picking coaches.
But I’m sure he would run ideas past Wilf first.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Jan 3, 2012 11:22 AM CST up reply actions
Don't think Frasier's seat is even warm
But both his an Spielman’s will be a year from now because I agree that it’s a make or break year for both of them. They need to have a good draft and a good off season on the free agent market.
MVP should be based on one thing.
Where would the team be without this player? Apparently the Packers would possibly still be just fine, maybe not 15-1 but in good shape.The Saints wouldn’t be the same without Drew. Ha, screw it. Peyton for MVP!
☠★☪Creator of http://skolnation.co.cc and dedicated DN reader.
by UnBannedVikingholic on Jan 3, 2012 10:40 AM CST reply actions
Peyton should be MVP
The Colts went from perennial 10+ win seasons and playoff appearances with Manning to the worst record in the league with mostly the same team without him.
IT'S. ABOUT. F'ING. TIME.
Finally, we have a general manager.
Ponder. Peterson. Percy. Purple Perfection.
Lol a WWE fiasco
☠★☪Creator of http://skolnation.co.cc and dedicated DN reader.
by UnBannedVikingholic on Jan 3, 2012 10:44 AM CST up reply actions
Hey, since the Guys who drafted Peyton have been fired
maybe the Colts will move in a different direction now? If so Draft Matt Kalil and Go get Peyton Vikings!! This could be huge to Ponder’s development.
☠★☪Creator of http://skolnation.co.cc and dedicated DN reader.
by UnBannedVikingholic on Jan 3, 2012 10:51 AM CST reply actions
o you know how MUCH Manning would cost?
he is currently on a 23 mil per year deal, and that was an underpayment by the Colts most said. No way we could even afford him AND make the necessary changes elsewhere on the team
and unless we seriously upgraded the O-line
he would literally be carried off the field in a body bag by week 4.
Kinda like what's happened to Ponder this year. Haha
I would be scared for Peyton, though. Ponder can run. Peyton runs like a 5 second 40. Maybe his uber-quick release could counteract that, though.
I'd be afraid of Peyton
Being literally decapitated behind our line with his history of neck injuries…
I know he's kind of a reach for #3
But did anyone else see Blackmon last night as a man versus boys? Holy crap he is a stud.
by Jepp The Viking on Jan 3, 2012 10:55 AM CST reply actions
I saw him - and I'm not sure he's a reach at #3.
He looked like he was AWOL the entire 1st qtr and then wham – he scores on about a 60 yard TD. Very explosive.
He looked like a man amongst boys out there
But how will he look amongst other men in the NFL? His speed and height are concerns in the NFL as a #1 receiver.
Billick: "What did McNabb do to deserve being benched?"
Answer: He upset PETA by killing every worm he came across on a football field.
Stanford's CBs are horrible
He does look very good though. No question about that. But I wonder how he will fare against NFL corners. He had a tough day (for him) vs Leonard Johnson of Iowa State. He did catch 10 passes for 99 yards and 1 TD but one of those was the TD for 27 yards in which he made a great adjustment to the under thrown ball and the safety totally blew the angle. So he managed to catch 9 other passes for 72 yards against Johnson.
I think he is still very good. I compare him to Hakeem Nicks and Michael Crabtree. I think he could be slightly better than those two which would not be bad.
Stanford's CBs are horrible?
They didn’t allow a 100 yard performance all year until last night. So, yeah..
"I wanted to do it because it's fun, it's fun to do bad things and drive into a car."
by PurplePeopleEaters on Jan 3, 2012 1:45 PM CST up reply actions
it's not all about stats...
they’re not very good.
Blackmon probably won’t be able to get separation in the NFL, similar to Mike Williams.
I compare him to a better Anquan Boldin
He is a vry disciplined player who plays with fire and has great character to boot. When the spotlight was on him this year all he did was produce. I really like him but we have other pressing needs to be addressed before WR and that’s LT, and then CB, and maybe even S.
Don't be seduced.......
the Vikings can have all the weapons in the game, but with weak line play, it means little. They need to shore up from the inside out.
I agree
Khalil is a must take if there. Plus, have you guys seen the FA WRs this year? Holy crap!
by Jepp The Viking on Jan 3, 2012 3:20 PM CST up reply actions
Good Move
I like the move! The Vikings needed one boss! Go Vikes!!
2012 DRAFT
In the 2012 draft, the Minnesota Vikings, with the third pick, have selected Dwayne Allen, Tight End, from Clemson. General manager Rick Speilman was quoted as saying, “we felt that it was imperative to find a blocking TE to replace Jim Kleinsasser as soon as possible. We are very pleased with this pick”.
by vking1 on Jan 3, 2012 11:17 AM CST via mobile reply actions
That's why he brought back Micky Shuler whom he drafted
Who is a great blocking TE, he got a lot of praise last year for being able to block Edwards and Allen one on one during TC.
Oh boy..
Well, I suppose this will let us see who’s to blame for shitty 2nd – 7th round selections then. Go get ’em, Rick. Build this team up.
HINT HINT Target O-line.
They drafted well in the 4th round
Ray Edwards, Brian Robison, Everson Griffen.
I think the worst part of the draft classes from 2006-2010 was all the trading they did to move up. The Gerhart trade is looking better as time passes. But some of the other moves (Tyrell Johnson, Tarvaris Jackson) were terrible.
"At this point, what we got to lose, right? So we might as well throw caution to the wind and hit people in the face."
--Vikings DE Jared Allen
Yeah, the draft day trades do seem to be a problem.
Even last year, it seemed to be a problem. We took Ponder with #12, but I suspect that the Vikings were working the phones like crazy to get a trade given that Ponder seems to have been a pretty big reach at #12.
The Vikings should institute a rule right now that says “Vikings personnel are prohibited from making draft day trades in order to acquire players with the initials TJ who played their college careers at 2nd tier football programs.”
"Man invented language to satisfy his deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
by kcskol on Jan 3, 2012 12:43 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
I second that rule
"At this point, what we got to lose, right? So we might as well throw caution to the wind and hit people in the face."
--Vikings DE Jared Allen
Yeah, they scoop up fallen talent from the 4th.
It doesn’t make up for crap selections in the 2nd and 3rd though.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Jan 3, 2012 3:58 PM CST up reply actions
Let's see.........
Our only 3rd round pick in the last 3 years is Asher Allen who has been playing out of position thanks to injuries, but he has been ok.
2nd round picks: Cook, whom the jury is still out on, but has shown flashes of what he could be. Gerhert, who is really coming on and showing his worth. Rudolph, looks like we got a keeper, just needs to improve on blocking.
So I would say we have done good lately, what really matters is how we do in those rounds this year.
"Cook, whom the jury is still out on..."
zinnnnnnnggggggg…
"Th_r_'s n_ h_p_ f_r _ssh_l_ f_ckw_ts."
Can I buy a vowel...?? +1, Kluwe.
… but at least it doesn’t say he has been given a contract extension to go along with the promotion. We needed someone who has extensive experience in being a GM, not someone who simply has more power than he knows what to do with. Let’s not forget how he broke Miami’s back when he had power there. This is Wilf’s attempt to give both Spielman and Fraiser another year or two together (the length of their current deals) and see what happens. Spielman needs to be very proactive this coming draft… not simply trying to get clever. If Kalil is unavailable, then he can trade from the 3rd pick to obtain extra picks – as long as he does not leave the top 10. If we stay pat – then Kalil would start the rebuild of our OL – and would possibly signal the return of Hutchison at LG (at a renegitiated salary) to assist Kilil’s initial development. Claiborne would fill another huge need and provide the team with a true starter, allowing Winfield to move to Safety. I must confess that I am fed up with these 3rd-4th round ‘he could have been selected much higher’ projects that simply do not get the job done! Cook was doing well until his rather well publicised legal problems – but his return is questionable at best. The rest of the CBs can simply empty their lockers (Allen and Burton will probably be kept as they are young and cheap). If RGIII declares and is available at 3, then the team must get true value if they trade down. The rookie wage scale demands that top 3 picks are worth so much more than a couple of years ago. It has been reported that it would be fair for Cleveland to part with their two 1st round picks this year as payment for the 3rd overall selection. Now knowing Spielman, he will find a way to trade this pick to Miami and not get the best deal. If the Vikings trade with Cleveland then they should still get Claiborne. If they trade with the Redskins, then they should consider Kirkpatrick, as he is better than the other available OL. If we trade with Miami, then if Kirkpatrick is off the table, then we take the best available player at any position except RB, DE, and C. We can find a receiver either in round 2, or via free agency. Sorry for the long rant… but it’s kinda been building up over the past seventeen weeks!
by blowfishes on Jan 3, 2012 11:28 AM CST via mobile reply actions
No need to apologize
The more ideas the better. I personally do not agree with moving Winfield to safety or even in bringing back Hutch. I would draft a corner who can start (Claiborne, Hayward, Minnifield) and move Winfield to the nickel spot. Then let Asher Allen, Benny Sapp, Marcus Sherels and Brandon Burton fight for the Dime role.
I also think I would take Jonathan Martin over Kirkpatrick. Martin was dominant last night vs. Ok St. and was an All-American for a reason. If Kalil is off the board, I hope some team is willing to offer up a kings ransom for the right to draft RG3 which should allow the Vikings to address both the oline and the secondary in the first 2 rounds.
"At this point, what we got to lose, right? So we might as well throw caution to the wind and hit people in the face."
--Vikings DE Jared Allen
Yeah Winfield should go to nickle
He has stated that he wants to play that position next year. Also saying that he would not want to move to safety, apparently there isn’t enough action at safety for him. He wants to finish off the last two years on his contract and then retire as a Viking.
If he wants to play nickle I say let him go for it, he could be deadly on some nickle blitz packages and playing him in that role would save his endurance. Asher Allen could get in on dime packages, this would probably suit him better. He is a decent CB but has been put up against the best receiver the opponent has many times, he is just not at the point to handle that yet. Give him another year or two he can develop nicely and take over the nickle job when Winfield retires.
We would just need to make a move for a starting CB or two depending on how Chris Cook manages in court.
"You can write articles and do whatever you want, you can break down every player. Good, bad or ugly. But we just aren't good enough as a team, as a group. Offensively, defensively and special teams, from the No. 1 on the roster to the last man on the roster. We just aren't good enough. It's as simple as that." - Chad Greenway
We wont be trading down to Cleveland
they pick #4, I doubt they would give us both 1st rounders to move up one spot for a player we wont draft
by Zach_Bodenner on Jan 3, 2012 1:41 PM CST up reply actions
The Thing is the Dolphins And Redskins
know Cleveland could pull the trigger on RG3, therefore they could possibly want to move up to grab him before another team do.
☠★☪Creator of http://skolnation.co.cc and dedicated DN reader.
by UnBannedVikingholic on Jan 3, 2012 1:53 PM CST up reply actions
it's still unlikely Cleveland, who also is in the process of rebuilding, would give up two 1st rdrs
with those picks, they could draft:
Richardson/Floyd
or,
Coples/Jeffrey
or,
Blackmon/(whoever)
if RG3 falls to them, they’d probably pull the trigger. but it’s not like any combo listed above + McCoy remaining at QB wouldn’t help them… they have plenty of options.
"Th_r_'s n_ h_p_ f_r _ssh_l_ f_ckw_ts."
Can I buy a vowel...?? +1, Kluwe.
Good comment
I agree that we should take Kalil if he’s available. I’m less enormored with our choices after that, so I’d also look to trade down to a pick that’s still top 10. I think we drafted for need last year. We can do that again this year, because we have so many needs (e.g. LT, RT, LG, RG, C, CB, CB, S, S, WR). My hope is that we get a very solid (or even great) LT out of this draft. If we do that, our team will get better right away. After that, I’d take CB or WR.
I strongly prefer Sapp over Winfield for the nickle spot which should give you a sense of what I think the Vikings should do with Winfield.
I also think Hutchinson should retire for his own sake and that of his family. He’s got enough money, but the injuries are start to mount. He’s not what he once was. He’s average at best these days. I think it’s okay for him and the Vikings to part company. Hutch should retire. He has had a very, very good career.
I like Sherels and Burton. I’d be fine with letting Asher Allen go.
I still think we need a center.
Everson Griffin was a “3rd-4th round ‘he could have been selected much higher’ project.” He’s been fine. I think Robison and Edwards were 3rd and 4th rounders too – though perhaps not folks who could have been selected a lot higher. Ballard was lower but had that reputation, and he seems good. The picks that I hate are the 1st round reaches and/or when there are serious concerns attached. (e.g. Williamson, Underwood, James). Yeah, the whole Randy Moss thing worked out just fine (the first time), but it’s just bad policy to reach for players in the first round IMO. In later rounds, I’m fine with it.
"Man invented language to satisfy his deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
Wow
So you think Winfield is just washed up? I can see arguing that he’s not worth his contract, and that he wasn’t what he once was, but I can’t see arguing that Sapp is a better player or that Winfield can’t play.
Similarly, your center thing is just weird. Sullivan’s turned himself into a solid if unspectacular player. Good teams are made up mostly of guys in that category.
Sort of.
I don’t think Winfield is washed up. He’ll play somewhere, but I’d prefer that it be on a different team. My main issue with Winfield is that he’s poor in coverage. I’m also concerned that he has missed significant portions of the past few seasons, and I don’t think that trend will reverse itself at his age.
I really like Winfield’s attitude and run support. I just think we need our secondary to be built around pass defense first. And at that level, I think Sapp is better than Winfield.
I know my comment about needing a center will be viewed as misinformed like my Winfield comment is. However, I think this line continues to get killed at the center position. I think renewing Sullivan’s contract is understandable if we felt we didn’t have an alternative to him on the team. However, I think it was a mistake – a big one.
"Man invented language to satisfy his deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
You're trying to make my head spin?
I don’t see any level on which Sapp is better than Winfield. And while Winfield is not as good in pass coverage as he is against the run, watching them play without him has certainly made me appreciate his coverage skills a lot more. He just doesn’t get burned like everyone else in the secondary, even if he isn’t the league’s best lock down cover man.
I guess I don’t know what it takes to convince you that we don’t get killed at the center position. I just don’t see it. I charted every play for two games, and I didn’t see it. Pro Football Focus picked him for the Pro Bowl. I just don’t know what you are basing your opinion on.
i gotta agree here...
I don’t see any level on which Sapp is better than Winfield.
between the two, regardless of what is anticipated from an opposing offense, i’d rather have Winfield on the field 10/10 times over Sapp. and it isn’t even close.
also agree on the Center deal — and i’m just going by my untrained eye. Sully has been the one solid spot on our entire OLine this year. can’t understand why people want to replace him, or draft an OG (i.e. DeCastro) in the 1st rd, when our real problem on the OLine is both OT positions.
"Th_r_'s n_ h_p_ f_r _ssh_l_ f_ckw_ts."
Can I buy a vowel...?? +1, Kluwe.
Agreed on all accounts
Winfield is way better than Sapp, hard to believe that even needs to be clarified.
I think Sullivan is good, however I could see people clamoring over DeCastro. He is supposed to be the best lineman in the draft. I think it would be pretty ballsy but if the Vikings traded #3 to Cleveland (I know unlikely because they are at #4) Took Martin or Kalil (doubt he would still be available) then traded up from #22 to try and snag DeCastro. We would have to give up a few picks but to have a solid OL for the foreseeable future would be worth it to me
"You can write articles and do whatever you want, you can break down every player. Good, bad or ugly. But we just aren't good enough as a team, as a group. Offensively, defensively and special teams, from the No. 1 on the roster to the last man on the roster. We just aren't good enough. It's as simple as that." - Chad Greenway
personally i still don't see the point, though -- even in that unlikely scenario
we have depth at OG in CJohnson (he’ll be moved from OT), Berger, Fusco, possibly Love… and that’s assuming both Hutch and Herrera won’t be back.
seems likes such a waste to use a 1st rd pick on an OG considering all the other holes we have.
if we’re going to trade up like that, it better be for a Strong Safety like Mark Barron. (if only he’d slip to the 2nd rd… man…)
"Th_r_'s n_ h_p_ f_r _ssh_l_ f_ckw_ts."
Can I buy a vowel...?? +1, Kluwe.
Sure there are a lot of holes to fill
I would just rather fill them with quality players, not career journeymen like Burger, Johnson and Herrera. Many people say that DeCastro is a better lineman than Kalil.
This years FA market has more opportunities for secondary and WR than OL. Zygi already said he isn’t afraid to spend some cash to get good FA’s this year so I would have to assume they will upgrade the line first and foremost. You are giving our lineman way too much credit, they are a terrible unit and they pretty much all need to be replaced (excluding Sully) If Hutch comes back then there probably are more pressing needs but there is no word on that yet.
I have said it before I don’t think that draft scenario is likely, that is just what I would try to do
"You can write articles and do whatever you want, you can break down every player. Good, bad or ugly. But we just aren't good enough as a team, as a group. Offensively, defensively and special teams, from the No. 1 on the roster to the last man on the roster. We just aren't good enough. It's as simple as that." - Chad Greenway
So...
Winfield is way better than Sapp in coverage, and way less likely to get injured in a season than Sapp? Is that your point?
If your answer to those questions is yes, then we will just disagree on our respective assessment of their skills. However, if you are saying that Winfield is a way better player than Sapp based on his blitzing and tackling, I’d say that I agree that he is better (not way better). However I’d also say that we need a secondary that can cover receivers more than we need a CB who is awesome at tackling. And whoever we have needs to be on the field in order to effective. I think Sapp is better than Winfield in both of those categories… and he’s no slouch at tackling either.
"Man invented language to satisfy his deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
Injuries, maybe
Although I’m not really a believer in a guy being “injury prone” rather than injuries just being something that happens.
But no, I don’t think that Sapp is better in coverage.
When Winfield plays the defense is better
You can argue about who is better at coverage, or tackling but Antoine gets results Sapp, who I think is probably our best CB at the end of the season, does not get results. There is a reason Winfield was employed while Sapp was watching on his couch
"You can write articles and do whatever you want, you can break down every player. Good, bad or ugly. But we just aren't good enough as a team, as a group. Offensively, defensively and special teams, from the No. 1 on the roster to the last man on the roster. We just aren't good enough. It's as simple as that." - Chad Greenway
Not sure I agree or that the comparison is a fair one.
By the time Sapp joined the Vikings, we were playing without Cook. Cook made the secondary better. But still our secondary rolled over early in the season in the second half of those early games. As I recall lot of the underneath stuff we couldn’t seem to cover at the time went to guys Winfield was covering.
"Man invented language to satisfy his deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
Guess we will just have to agree to disagree
"You can write articles and do whatever you want, you can break down every player. Good, bad or ugly. But we just aren't good enough as a team, as a group. Offensively, defensively and special teams, from the No. 1 on the roster to the last man on the roster. We just aren't good enough. It's as simple as that." - Chad Greenway
Okay, hold onto something.
Sorry to hear about your head spinning. Feeling dizzy or is it more of a Poltergeist head spin? :-)
Sullivan is not good. I don’t care what Pro Football Focus says. It’s not the first time that I think they’ve missed the boat on their stack rankings. Sullivan is fine at center when he’s immediately engaged at the line AND gets help on his block from one of the guards. However, Sullivan does a poor job of blocking one on one AND does a poor job seeing and handling delayed movement by the linebackers and stunts by the defensive line. I find he often immediately engages to help where he’s not particularly needed and then leaves the gate wide open for the aforementioned delayed blitzes and stunting linemen. I’ll offer two memorable examples that illustrate my significant concerns about Sullivan:
1) The safety on McNabb early in the season was Sullivan’s fault. It was his guy who got to McNabb, and amazingly, he went at McNabb literally untouched by Sullivan. How can that happen at the goal line and up through the middle of the OL? Even more amazingly, Sullivan didn’t actually engage anyone on that play. It’s almost harder to play center and NOT touch anyone on a play than it is to actually block someone.
2) The play in which Ponder got his concussion against the Redskins recently occurred as a result of Sullivan being pushed 5 yards backwards by a lone DT. It happened quickly. Once Sullivan was backed into Ponder, the DT then jumped up over Sullivan and grabbed Ponder. With one arm on Ponder, Sullivan was still unable to block the DT who then continued to hold onto Ponder while engaged with the Sullivan. Then a linebacker came in and cleaned Ponder’s clock. It was as though the DT didn’t even notice Sullivan was on the field.
In one-on-one play, Sullivan gets man handled. When getting help from a guard, he’s fine. Getting consistent help from a guard is not a luxury NFL centers can rely on. With Ponder’s lack of success against 5 men or more rushing (only 39% completion rate), every man on the line is going to have to take a person one-on-one and sometimes even shift to slow down the rush of a 2nd player too.
Oh, and Sullivan has trouble delivering a decent shotgun snap too. I’m still mystified by how that could be the case for a guy with as much experience at center as Sullivan has.
"Man invented language to satisfy his deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
I'll see if I can find those plays
And have another look.
But overall I’ve not seen Sullivan get manhandled one on one.
Surprisingly hard to find online.
Here’s a video with the Ponder sack against the Redskins. It takes place at 1:05 in the video. http://www.nfl.com/videos/minnesota-vikings/09000d5d825605a1/Vikings-vs-Redskins-highlights
Here’s the video of the McNabb safety. It’s the first play on this video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VoshINm7Xes&feature=related In an interview in a different video I saw, the DT mentioned that he felt like he went untouched on the play, but he didn’t seem certain. I can confirm that fact for him. :-(
"Man invented language to satisfy his deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
Yeah, saw that
And you’re right about both plays.
On the safety, Sully over-reacted to the DT’s pre-snap position and got beat on the stunt. On the other play, he just got bull rushed.
And I think that's the issue there in a nutshell.
It seems to happen with a fair degree of frequency. I just mentioned these two plays because of their game-changing potential outcomes (i.e. safety and QB concussion). However, the season has been littered with this stuff from Sullivan. As bad as Charlie Johnson and Loadholt have been, I think Sullivan’s been almost as bad. It’s just that its harder to spot, because the center gets covered up a lot by the mess in the middle of the line, and because the guards offer a lot of help. When I spend the time watching Sullivan, I tend to be disappointed by what I see.
Anyway, I hope I didn’t just make your head start spinning again. :-)
"Man invented language to satisfy his deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
Again
In the games I charted, no. In the games I was keeping an on him because of various people’s complaints about him, no.
But you’ve given me two plays.
Remind me which games you charted.
I’ll probably go back and re-watch them in the next few weeks.
Also, I’ll be watching some more of this past Sunday’s game later this week. I’ve watched the Ponder possessions so far and noticed that the sack on Ponder on the 3rd possession came as a result of pressure up the middle. Both Herrera and Sully were unable to stop their guys. Herrera’s guy got to Ponder first, but Sully’s guy essentially prevented Ponder from side stepping the Herrera’s guy. I wasn’t really looking at the line play so much during this recent viewing, but that play pretty much jumped off the screen. Again, it was a situation in which Sully was one-on-one and couldn’t keep his guy on the line or even with 2 yards of the line of scrimmage.
"Man invented language to satisfy his deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
Oh cr*p.
I have trouble watching Minnesota/New Orleans games. Too many memories. Oh well. I’ll grit my teeth.
"Man invented language to satisfy his deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
Aside from Gerhardt
Most every time Peterson tried to run up the middle this year he got stuffed faster than a Raggedy Ann at the factory…
by liveforadrenaline on Jan 4, 2012 5:10 PM CST up reply actions
You're right..
… in that we have picked up some great DE talent in the forth round, Robison and Griffin are developing well – still love that we have a DE as a gunner – and I’m hoping for solid compensation for the loss of Edwards in this years draft. I was mainly referring to the DB talent that we have had to endure since I don’t know when. Cedric Griffin was an ok no.2 until his knees gave out, but we are long since the days of Carl Lee. I didn’t include C in my wish list purely because the guy who recently gave him a lofty contract extension has just been made GM, so he is hardly going to fear for his job going into next season. Sapp at CB simply cannot be allowed to happen in my opinion. He was merely an ok flashy DB the last time he was a Viking who’s only play of memory was the penalty against him vs Chicago at the Dome that eventually lead them to fail to get into the end zone from the 1 yard line and lead to the 99 yard TD pass to BB.
We’ll have to agree to Disagree on Hutch, as I still think he has a year or two left in him, as long as you partner him with a powerful, talented, energetic LT. He has a lot to teach a young player, and trying to plug two new players on the left hand side (or a player moving to another position) won’t give Ponder much help early in the season. On the right hand side I would give Loadholt another chance, but Herrera needs to go. Whilst Johnson could move from LT to RG, I would prefer an actual recognised RG via free agency. Sherels is a good player, but he needs to make much better judgement calls on his punt returns. Asher Allen improved as the season went in, and I woukd be ok for him to stay on the team in a backup role. I’m guessing that Spielman becoming GM means that Rosenfels will probably come back as the veteran presence at QB, and I’m actually happy with that.
by blowfishes on Jan 3, 2012 1:49 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
just one point
randy moss was not a reach the first time around. he fell a looooooooooong ways to us in that draft. He should have been in the top 10 if not top 5. Other wise I generally agree with you about reaching for guys. In most cases talent trumps need, you can always move guys to balance out the roster later.
Will the Real Thor Please Stand Up ... ?
by the Real Thor on Jan 3, 2012 10:34 PM CST up reply actions
Yeah, I wasn't very clear on that one.
The picks that I hate are the 1st round reaches and/or when there are serious concerns attached. (e.g. Williamson, Underwood, James). Yeah, the whole Randy Moss thing worked out just fine (the first time), but it’s just bad policy to reach for players in the first round IMO.
I actually was referring to Moss as a guy with “serious concern attached” like in the case with Demetrius Underwood (mental) and Erasmus James (injuries). That last sentence I wrote was two different points but came across as though I was saying Moss was a reach. That wasn’t my intention. Sorry.
"Man invented language to satisfy his deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
This is also good news.
I just hope all this positive change (two good QB’s, early draft pick, easier schedule, new GM, etc.) isn’t for nothing if they move to Los Angeles anytime soon.
I like this non-move move.
The team knows Spielman, and Spielman knows the team. He probably has a better idea of what Frazier and his staff are capable of (or not capable of) than the Wilf’s do, so it’s a nice way of putting a football guy in the Donald Trump seat (i.e. “You’re fired!”). I suspect that Frazier is safe this off season, but the dynamic has definitely changed. It’s no longer simply a Wilf’s call (i.e. a football fan with money). Now a football professional is going to be evaluating Frazier. I wish I could be a fly on the wall and know that Spielman thinks of Frazier and his performance this past year.
Anyway, the Triangle of Authority concept sounds nice, but it basically allowed everyone to escape personal responsibility for bad decisions. I can’t tell what was Spielman’s fault vs. Frazier’s vs. whoever else is part of that triangle. I think with this move it will create more accountability at the top as well as those reporting to the GM. That can only be a good thing going forward. Other than that, this is basically a non-move move.
"Man invented language to satisfy his deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
by kcskol on Jan 3, 2012 12:00 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
Well it was a good move
Even if Spielman completely craps the bed we have the correct structure now. Let’s hope they start moving from running to passing now.
The Vikes aren't in a remodeling or reconstruction they are in a burn the place down and start praying they don't mimic the Lions rebuilding process.
by Grime on Jan 3, 2012 12:05 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
Let’s hope they start moving from running to passing now.
If you are suggesting that the Vikings de-emphasize all the talk that Peterson can carry this team, I’m with you there.
"Man invented language to satisfy his deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
Agreed......
rarely, if ever, has any RB in history carried a team, at least in terms of a championship. Jim Brown may be the only one that has come close, with a number of title game appearances and ONE win. OJ- zip, Sanders- zilch, Dickerson- none. Each of them carried their teams, so to speak. Emmit Smith has rings, but, those teams were loaded, and he did not carry them.
If you rely on any one player/position to carry you, chances are you're probably not a good team.
Billick: "What did McNabb do to deserve being benched?"
Answer: He upset PETA by killing every worm he came across on a football field.
So does the Colts
☠★☪Creator of http://skolnation.co.cc and dedicated DN reader.
by UnBannedVikingholic on Jan 3, 2012 1:54 PM CST up reply actions
That's why I said chances are :)
Billick: "What did McNabb do to deserve being benched?"
Answer: He upset PETA by killing every worm he came across on a football field.
Elway relied on Davis a lot during their run
It could be argued that Davis carried the team
Billick: "What did McNabb do to deserve being benched?"
Answer: He upset PETA by killing every worm he came across on a football field.
any objective person would recognize it was a symbiotic relationship...
…take Jerry Rice out of the equation, and Montana or Young aren’t as successful.
however, all things equal, the bullet can’t be fired without the gun.
just sayin’…
"Th_r_'s n_ h_p_ f_r _ssh_l_ f_ckw_ts."
Can I buy a vowel...?? +1, Kluwe.
Honestly you have to be an idiot to think you can build a successful franchise around a RB.
Now AD with a solid QB would be awesome. I hope we never try it again after 2009… Anyway the NFL is pass happy and we need to jump on board.
We need a bigger gun… I’m talking about an AK 47 tricked out with extended mags and an acog scope. :D
The Vikes aren't in a remodeling or reconstruction they are in a burn the place down and start praying they don't mimic the Lions rebuilding process.
Gotta go with the Springfield M1A/M14
An AK 47 reminds me too much of our team right now… you can spray a lot of bullets but whether you hit anything with success for medium or longer distances is extremely iffy…
And his 2,000 yards rushing took a HUGE amount of heat offa Elway… neither one could have won without the other…
by liveforadrenaline on Jan 4, 2012 2:03 PM CST up reply actions
When you absolutely have to kill ever mother F'n person in the room
accept no substitutes.
The Vikes aren't in a remodeling or reconstruction they are in a burn the place down and start praying they don't mimic the Lions rebuilding process.
Lol!
In that case, in a tight room, gotta go with a Smith & Wesson M&P 16 shot Viking Tactic .40’s in each hand… easier to aim than a long gun, plus you have the benefit of killing them with a Viking ;)
Two guns, like a good quarterback and a good running back, are better than just one.
by liveforadrenaline on Jan 4, 2012 2:21 PM CST up reply actions
I'm not sure I like the decision
But at least now we can place the blame purely on one person instead of having three people in charge.
by christian220896 on Jan 3, 2012 12:23 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
Hartman called this last week,
I absolutely love the move. We needed a man in charge so that the coach couldn’t keep screwing up the team by making impulse decisions. Spielman is awesome. Can’t wait to see what he does with the team now that he’s the GM.
"Courage is resistance to fear, mastery of fear, not absence of fear." -Mark Twain
Now that Speilman is GM
his first task will be to figure out the coaching situation for the defence. Moving Speilman to GM will give cover to Frasier when Singletary gets let go along with Pagac. My guess is that he will try to bring Del Rio back to the Vikes as DC.
by Tuba on Jan 3, 2012 12:50 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
He played for the Viks kid....
2011 Vikings, keeping the liquor industry in the green ALL YEAR LONG!
by LeeleeX on Jan 3, 2012 12:59 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I am not a big fan of Del Rio as a coach
He could not do much in his 9(?) years with the Jags, maybe he would be better as just a DC though
The Jags have a pretty good defense this year
☠★☪Creator of http://skolnation.co.cc and dedicated DN reader.
by UnBannedVikingholic on Jan 3, 2012 1:08 PM CST up reply actions
And no former head coaches
Are ever successful coordinators, right?
So what you said about him as a head coach
Wasn’t just meant to be superfluous?
Interesting thoughts
And I hope you are right.
Great Move....
….to put a GM in place. I’m not sure I’m on-board with promoting someone that’s been in a position of influence during the past 2 seasons.
Given the triangle of power (TOP), and the 2 (yes 2) craptastic seasons we’ve just suffered, either Spielman had great ideas that were shot down by the other 2 points of the TOP, or he had no great ideas. Either way, he’s not fit for the GM job.
If he has great ideas, but can’t convince 2 peers that they’re great ideas, then he doesn’t have the moxy, cajones, savvy, street smarts, salesmanship, or whatever, to be wheeling and dealing for trades and free agents. He’ll get eaten alive at the bargaining table.
The other option, he had no great ideas to begin with, kind of speaks for itself.
I accept that his power and influence was limited by the TOP. But I still have issues promoting someone that was in a leadership position during such epic failure.
Frazier to have final say on coaches and starting QB
per Spielman’s Q&A.
"Th_r_'s n_ h_p_ f_r _ssh_l_ f_ckw_ts."
Can I buy a vowel...?? +1, Kluwe.
Which is fine, if they want to make a coaching change that badly and Frazier is against it
then they will just can him too hopefully
playing time decisions...
should always rest with the coach. that’s not odd at all.
I was commenting on the other coaches
if the team wants them gone bad enough and Frazier doesn’t agree than he will just go too
Right on kcskol!
This move won’t make any difference.
The issues with Ponder is the Vikings HAD to draft a QB #1 because the only QB we had on the roster was Webb. At the very least, we had to have a second QB. It was Childress who put us in that position.
It won’t hurt to build up the team either around Ponder or use Ponder as a place holder until we improve and can attract a top QB through FA. Either way, I would be drafting o-line and defense.
by Vikefandc on Jan 3, 2012 1:17 PM CST via mobile reply actions
Just remember
Who’s money he’ll be throwing around. Wilf probably won’t just give him the checkbook and let him go hogwild on signing coaches and free agents.
Well they have the minimum cap to reach.
I think Ziggy has shown in the past he’s willing to spend money. My concern is that this is little more than a title change for Rick and we will have the TOA functioning in the background.
Billick: "What did McNabb do to deserve being benched?"
Answer: He upset PETA by killing every worm he came across on a football field.
look at the contracts signed
and the number of bad or mediocre players paid like they were studs under Wilf’s watch. Then see if the facts agree with your statement. Wilf doesn’t seem to know anything about football. He is in this as an investment. Buy a cheap NFL team, quickly win a superbowl, get a stadium deal and then sell the team for 3 times what he bought them for. Given everything he’s allowed and his willingness to give Chilly premature contract extensions, I don’t think he minds spending the money, but he has no idea who to spend it on.
No problem with the move......
for the Vikings, the position of GM would be more aptly named “Dean of Accountability.” It has been long needed.
It is unusual though........
in the sense that when a team finishes 3-13, there is usually housecleaning that takes place, not a promotion.
My thoughts exactly
I question Wilf’s management/ownership skills at this point.
No way he should have given Childress a 3-year contract.
No way he should have given the unproven Frazier a 3-year contract.
And now we have one of the 3 people within the triangle of authority who helped preside over a 3-13 team get a promotion, even after he destroyed the previous team he was GM at. He is so far away from being a Viking’s Jim Finks of yesteryear that I cringe and become incredibly sad.
by liveforadrenaline on Jan 3, 2012 2:21 PM CST up reply actions
It was the "all in" approach from last year that hurt this team
We re-sign/kept old injured players instead of replenishing the roster. Result: we got older and age/injuries caught up with us and because we didn’t draft as we should have now we have to rebuild the roster instead of reloading. You can blame Chilly for that because he had final say over the roster.
Maybe
Or maybe not.
Either way it shows that Spielman did little to become an equal member of this triangle of authority, and was the weak sister. Or Chilly was the strong sister.
Either way, it was a fail on Wilf’s part.
Going forward, some aspects of what Wilf is doing are very good. He is willing to spend the money to get quality and he has brought forth stadium proposals, and now at least he is doing a little shaking of management. He’s not selling his kids to get an A+ head coach or anything, but maybe if I live long enough I’ll see another trip to the Super Bowl.
by liveforadrenaline on Jan 3, 2012 3:03 PM CST up reply actions
Spielman didn't destroy the Dolphins...
a large part of that mess was similar to the Vikings; shared authority with an idiot (Wannstedt).
could not agree with you more man
well put
i am sad as well
by los vikingos on Jan 3, 2012 6:04 PM CST via iPhone app up reply actions
Can't say whether it's good or not
All I can say is how could it possibly be any worse than what we just experienced?
"Skol Vikings! Let's win this game Skol Vikings!
Hope this is more than semantics.
The problem I perceived with the triangle of authority was that it essentially left ownership in the defacto GMT capacity. But unlike a conventional GM, they were not deeply involved in a hands-on manner.
A true GM takes input from those who answer to him and then makes his own decision. Under the triangle structure I always suspected that a consensus position was agreed to and a recommendation was submitted to ownership. That sort of structure deprives the top decisionmaker from weighing diverse competing strategies.
This move appears to me as though Soggy has essentially removed ownership from the GM position and created a clear chain of command. That is a good thing; one man, one boss.
I hope Speilman has all the authority typically delegated to an NFL GM, and not just the title. Likewise for Fraser. Coaches usually do live or die with their staff and starting an.
But GMs are the guys who, after considering input from their subordinates, compile the best roster of talent money can buy… so long as the owners are willing to pay for it.
I think this is a big step in the right direction, organizationally speaking.
by Lars in SLP on Jan 3, 2012 2:38 PM CST via mobile reply actions
I know that it was probably a correction by your phone
But I just want to say that referring to the Vikings’ owner as “Soggy” is pretty awesome.
Seriously, I had to read it two or three times to figure out what the heck you were talking about. (-:
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by Christopher Gates on Jan 3, 2012 2:41 PM CST up reply actions
aaarrrrg....
This stupid smartphone.
I hope you also figured out that an is actually qb…
I gotta start doing this on my computer….
by Lars in SLP on Jan 3, 2012 2:45 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
I thought maybe
it was Ziggy’s alter ego hell bent on destroying the TOA!!!! :)
by Simply_Greatness on Jan 3, 2012 5:57 PM CST up reply actions
I agree that a clear line of authority is best
I don’t think Spielmans the one, though…
by liveforadrenaline on Jan 3, 2012 2:42 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I like the move
Say what you want about his time in Miami, but he had to tear down a team that was bad to begin with, was way over the cap and didn’t have any draft picks to really work with. I have really liked his own draft picks and personel decisions.
Alrighty then get a GM: Check
Now let’s get the Defensive Coaching staff in order
I thought they might consider firing him because of sparse returns on lower round picks during his tenure
but like the OP states, at least now someone is accountable. Before, you had the argument that Spielman isn’t the ultimate decider (that’s a word now) but I guess the triangle is broken.
If I owned the team, Bill Polian would have hired already and Spielman would be looking for work, but fortunately (or unfortunately) for Vikings fans, I’m just a poor blue color douche.
"poor blue color douche"
So you’re like a cover band/group?
Sorry…couldn’t help myself lol
There’s actually a few other jokes there but felt I should contain myself.
by reebs on Jan 3, 2012 8:42 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
Polian ruined the
Colts, see their record this year. also, one of the reasons he was fired is because he was trying to groom his son as his successor, when his son is considered to be incompetent. Bill and his son are a package deal.
Will the Real Thor Please Stand Up ... ?
by the Real Thor on Jan 3, 2012 10:49 PM CST up reply actions
I dont really know how you can say he destroyed the Colts
when you make the playoffs every year but two in which he was the GM. Also, picking 30,31or32 every year in the draft keeps you from getting any shot at the best new talent. Also, the NFL is cyclical for ALL teams, they can only be so good for so long before there is an inevitable decline
RICK SPEILMAN
ANOTHER IDIOT MOVE MADE BY PEOPLE WITH VERY LITTLE FOOTBALL KNOWLEDGE (THE WILFS)
disagree...
love the move. should have been done 2-3 years ago.
I didn't say everyone.
I said it was a surprisingly large group of people. I speak for no one but myself.
I find it annoying as well.
but then I’m just me.
The Vikes aren't in a remodeling or reconstruction they are in a burn the place down and start praying they don't mimic the Lions rebuilding process.
I'M SHOUTING I'M SHOUTING I'M SHOUTING...!!
"Th_r_'s n_ h_p_ f_r _ssh_l_ f_ckw_ts."
Can I buy a vowel...?? +1, Kluwe.
I LOVE LAMP
Billick: "What did McNabb do to deserve being benched?"
Answer: He upset PETA by killing every worm he came across on a football field.
RAAAWWWWRRRRRR!!
Whargarrbllll!!!!!
I piss people off on a fairly regular basis. I cherish my right to speak my mind, whether I sound like an uneducated savage or not. I've never been accused of keeping what I think a secret, nor will I ever. Don't like it? I don't care.
by IABerserker1 on Jan 3, 2012 8:20 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pi0xFSiqPeA
"Th_r_'s n_ h_p_ f_r _ssh_l_ f_ckw_ts."
Can I buy a vowel...?? +1, Kluwe.
The guy is a proven nothing. Why would you give him any authority. Hes gotten awhole lot more then he ll ever get right. He wasn t even responsible for his actions this season
his actions?
what would those be? Favre and McNabb are about the worst 2 moves we’ve made over the last few years and who did those? Coaches. Not Spielman. He’s drafted pretty well and made some good FA moves and deserves a shot. Let’s see what he can do with full authority.
Hard to see
McNabb as a “worst move.” They took a shot on a vet who might have been able to return to form and make them a contending team while they waited for a rookie to develop. That was low risk. It also happened to turn out to be low reward.
The main bad moves that come to mind are cutting Moss after trading a third round pick for him weeks before and trading up to get a back up running back (even though he’s been good when he gets to play).
The thing about the vikings since bud has been gone as coach we have always settled for the cheapest option or who ever is handy for a guy who is crying for a new stadium recycling has beens or never haves rotating one moron for another is not the answer
+100000000!!!
or scotty studwell for that matter…
by los vikingos on Jan 3, 2012 5:31 PM CST via iPhone app up reply actions
huh?
Denny Green was the cheapest option or handy? Chilly was?
Okay
Well, if that’s what ou think of his tenure, well, I guess I don’t see a lot of reason to trust you football judgment.
by amiller92 on Jan 3, 2012 9:48 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Say waht you want about Denny
but he is largely responsible for teh pass happy league we play in today.
Will the Real Thor Please Stand Up ... ?
by the Real Thor on Jan 3, 2012 10:52 PM CST up reply actions
I don't know,
as much as I don’t think Denny was a great head coach, he certainly knew talent evaluation. I think he made several bad on field personnel moves. For instance, starting qb gets injured in week 2 or 3. Back up comes in and we get 11 or more wins that season. Get into the first round of the playoffs, we play the back from injury starter, who loses the game. This happened how many times? Gannon, Salisbury and Brad Johnson are the back ups I remember during this time.
He was 97-62 as Vikings coach
Won the division four times and went to the playoffs 8 out of 10 years.
That’s a pretty darn successful head coach.
Also (sorry to bring up bad memories)
Two NFC Championship appearances.
Be interesting what you think of Denny's record...
I mean the Vikes under his watch did pretty dang well, the only thing he couldn’t get us was a SB. And I don’t think an amalgam of Madden/Grant and Jesus Christ could coach this team to a super bowl win…
The Vikes aren't in a remodeling or reconstruction they are in a burn the place down and start praying they don't mimic the Lions rebuilding process.
Denny, in my mind, was a very good coach.
Not a great coach, or an excellent coach, but very good. I have a feeling the first thing he would do is get some protection for the quarterback and then he would take our playbook and throw it as far as he can.
by liveforadrenaline on Jan 4, 2012 7:49 PM CST up reply actions
hiring a GM...awesome move
spielman promotion, uh, not so much.
why?
1.ponder reach
2.terrible gm track record
3.poor percentage of late round pick hits
4.mcnabb and moss fiascos (maybe not all on him, but he was part of the triumverate at the time)
5. not one of us
6. chris cook pick ans subsequent mess
7. 3-13 season under his watch
8. inability to maintain performance level of a nfc championship team over time, in other words our ghastly collapse over past two years
9. lack of football identity, what are his strenghts, what is his style?
10. overall standoff-ish style and personna
by los vikingos on Jan 3, 2012 5:40 PM CST via iPhone app reply actions
Not even ill blame anyone in the HO for Cook's crap...
Moss crap was all on Chilly, he didnt even call anyone.
And im pretty sure we established you cant call it a Ponder Reach till next season, once the “he didnt get a full training camp” out of the way.
Last time i checked the GM isnt on the field coaching, outside of Dallas.
One of us…..god help us all.
Standoffish style and persona, what you dated his daughter?
Damn man, youre making me look sane…
2011 Vikings, keeping the liquor industry in the green ALL YEAR LONG!
by LeeleeX on Jan 3, 2012 5:44 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
leelee, i may grant you ponder may turn it around (and i sure hope he does that) and shut me up
BUT, the pick was a reach. if you could have traded down, gotten some value in return and still drafted the kid, but didnt do it, then you reached and are incompetent at wheeling and dealing come draft day.
finally, there are a plethora of reports chronicling his inability to get along with others. you must not read the paper enough
by los vikingos on Jan 3, 2012 5:51 PM CST via iPhone app up reply actions
Do you not think they tried to trade down...
no one was biting anymore.. Remember how many other teams ahead of us that traded down.
We needed a QB and the one wwe wanted wasn’t going to be there in the 2nd round so we took him END OF STORY
by midnightwonder on Jan 3, 2012 6:31 PM CST up reply actions
They did?
I dont remember them saying they tried to trade down and instead as a last ditch effort grabbed Ponder.
Id love to see that article so I can cry.
2011 Vikings, keeping the liquor industry in the green ALL YEAR LONG!
NO
I just think people shouldnt claim knowledge on situations that are about as on the truth as those idiots hunting “squatch” on Discovery TV.
2011 Vikings, keeping the liquor industry in the green ALL YEAR LONG!
Okay, well
This is pretty early, but it’s talking about the Vikings maybe trading down, in discussions with Cleveland. Here’s the referenced report.
Here’s more discussion of trading down, this time with quotes from Spielman saying he’s talked to several teams.
I think it’s safe to say they would have traded down if they had an attractive offer and thought they could still get their guy.
So was Ponder one of the 6?
Or were there no trades?
The fact the Falcons gave Cleveland their mother for a trade may of set the tone that no team could match for a trade up too.
Talking about it before hand is what every team does. After the fact, saying they took Ponder cause noone wanted to trade is what is being suggested, and without fact. I think it was a knee jerk reaction.
2011 Vikings, keeping the liquor industry in the green ALL YEAR LONG!
huh?
The reports were that they were talking about trading down ahead of time. Given that, it’s pretty safe assumption they were also talking about trading down on draft day. As they didn’t make a deal, it’s an even safer assumption that no one wanted to give them enough that they thought it was worth doing.
I don’t think that adds up to picking Ponder as a last resort, but I’d read it was they wanted Ponder, thought they might be able to move down and still get him, but didn’t get a deal done so went with their guy.
Then he was one of the 6?
That boggles the imagination….of all the talent on the board at the time, we went with a 2nd round projected QB and now we are in an even better spot to get a QB this year, when we now BETTER not pick one.
if Miami and Wash were so hot on a QB, why wouldnt they of taken Dalton then? Who sat until the 2nd round.
2011 Vikings, keeping the liquor industry in the green ALL YEAR LONG!
because
you try and draft someone that will work in your system not another teams system
by midnightwonder on Jan 4, 2012 2:53 PM CST up reply actions
I thought you drafted the BEST player available?
Cause thats not what we did.
2011 Vikings, keeping the liquor industry in the green ALL YEAR LONG!
Don't pretend like there's no disagreement
And most reasonable people will admit that need should come into it to some degree.
I’d argue that the you stay closer to BPA when you’re in pretty good shape and just looking to improve, but that you need to adhere more to need when you have big holes to fill.
who is pretending?
If he comes out this next year like he did this year, then i cant wait to see what excuse people will come up with then.
Im more then happy to give him a full year before i say he officially blows goats. But im not going to make excuses for him 2 years in a row.
2011 Vikings, keeping the liquor industry in the green ALL YEAR LONG!
it has been talked about a lot
Wash and Miami were both rumored to like Ponder, and there was some noise about the vikings trying, and failing, to move down, while staying ahead of those two. also, if the Vikes had drafted some one else, and ponder is taken by wash, dalten goes to cincy, then what?
Will the Real Thor Please Stand Up ... ?
by the Real Thor on Jan 3, 2012 10:58 PM CST up reply actions
Then we end up with McNabb and Webb?
We are currently in the 3rd spot in the draft…how does this end up worse? The first spot, Luck lotto?
The point is we took a QB that was in all reports projected for the 2nd round based off all the happy reports we all read, posted, and reposted here.
We are now drafting higher then the previous year. In a great spot to take a QB, however we dont need one, id like to think.
Using rumors as a justification to grab a guy early, i just dont think that holds water.
Ive said before, i understand give him a full season, full camp, blah blah blah, cause if he comes out next year like this year, the whole, hes a rookie bullshit isnt going to fly.
2011 Vikings, keeping the liquor industry in the green ALL YEAR LONG!
by LeeleeX on Jan 4, 2012 8:03 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
you have to remember...
that at the time of the draft we only had 1 QB and that was Webb, it was a lock-out there was no FA before the draft as it usually happens.
McOld came afterward because of even further damage of the lock-out.
by midnightwonder on Jan 4, 2012 2:57 PM CST up reply actions
We actually had 1 and a shot....Bomar the DD!
The fact is, I dont see us doing worse then we are right now.
But we could of built up our Oline and secondary.
2011 Vikings, keeping the liquor industry in the green ALL YEAR LONG!
if they would have addressed the O-line last year
I think a trade with denver for Orton or Brady Quinn would have gone better than Mcnabb…
I think a trade for some gym socks would of been better then McNabb...
The O-line, the pass coverage…seriously the pass coverage….
2011 Vikings, keeping the liquor industry in the green ALL YEAR LONG!
It was actually said a lot by other teams that the VIkings FO was "feverishly" working the phones trying to trade down, but no team wanted to trade up
so they grabbed Ponder at the last second. Also if you watched the draft it was pretty obvious because they cam rushing up with almost no time left
Ok so then he wasnt part of the 6
The more im hearing the worse its sounding lol.
Again id think if these other teams were so hot on him we wouldnt of had a problem trading down.
Oh well, were stuck with it now.
2011 Vikings, keeping the liquor industry in the green ALL YEAR LONG!
No other teams really needed a QB
so why trade up, they probably figured that there was no way they would take him at #12, so he would be there at 15-17 Range, where he would have been taken had we not picked him.
ok how can that work
They would of taken him if he was there, but they didnt need a QB,. but we obviously were going to draft one….either they would of drafted him or they wouldnt of. I doubt either of those teams would of drafted Ponder at 15-17 when he was projected for late 2nd round. But i can agree to disagree.
i think alot of it is assumptions and a total gamble, we still dont know how well the gamble has paid off.
2011 Vikings, keeping the liquor industry in the green ALL YEAR LONG!
If there's a "Plethora of reports"
Then you shouldn’t have any problems finding some sources to back that up.
just read tom powers column in todays east side fish wrap and youll understand
spielman couldnt get along with saban, childress, or frazier…,
by los vikingos on Jan 4, 2012 6:02 PM CST via iPhone app up reply actions
sorry my bad, you are right i was talking about spielman
powers column actually has me quite depressed today…
Yeah..
Can’t take what they say as the final word, though. We’re just gonna have to see how it pans out.
Especially not him
Hes paid to bitch, and it’s all he’s done for decades.
Ok, with these two...
Standoffish style and persona, what you dated his daughter?
Damn man, youre making me look sane…
You made up for all the snarky comments above. Lol
by Murgo on Jan 3, 2012 5:52 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I know!
Maybe you’re on the meds again?
The Vikes aren't in a remodeling or reconstruction they are in a burn the place down and start praying they don't mimic the Lions rebuilding process.
Meds are for quitters!
2011 Vikings, keeping the liquor industry in the green ALL YEAR LONG!
Would have preferred an outside hire.
But a definite step in the right direction to have GM.
"I learned something yesterday. No use in having rules if there's no punishment for breaking them. You'll be fine if you bite down on the trigger. Enjoy your breakfast."
lets just keep the same retreads dont bother getting an outside view of your glaring mistakes you continually make over and over and over and over
The glaring mistake is we had the TOA and not one person making the decisions
Now we do
Billick: "What did McNabb do to deserve being benched?"
Answer: He upset PETA by killing every worm he came across on a football field.
+1
of if he stinks it up we can fire him and get a more name worthy GM. That seems to be what everyone wants anyway.
No note worthy GM would have come into to the TOA structure so now that has been officially changed and it didn’t cost the Wilfs any extra change so i would say it was a good business decision.
by midnightwonder on Jan 3, 2012 6:34 PM CST up reply actions
Accountability is a good thing
If Speilman wasn’t responsible for all the wasted draft picks the Vikings have had over the years, who was? I find it hard to believe that Wilf doesn’t know that answer.
Draft day is coming. We’ll all be watching.
Ah, ah,
We come from the land of the ice and snow,
From the midnight sun where the hot springs blow.
The hammer of the gods will drive our ships to new lands,
To fight the horde, singing and crying: Valhalla, I am coming!
SKOL!
exactly..
you have to think that Wilf knows the decisions Spielman has been responsible for and those made by Frazier and Childress. The fact that he is promoting him speaks volumes about how many of the “good decisions” have been on Spielman. IMO.
oh no, say it ain't so
I was really hoping he would be relieved of his duties rather than be promoted. So many deficiencies in player personnel dept., which was his job.
Spielman is now fully responsible
If it works out for the team, then great. If not, then a)we can fire him and then, b)the structure is in place to hire somebody better. I don’t see how this isn’t a win/win situation in the long run.
Ponder. Peterson. Percy. Purple Perfection.
That's what I'm saying
No matter what this is a good situation.
The Vikes aren't in a remodeling or reconstruction they are in a burn the place down and start praying they don't mimic the Lions rebuilding process.
on a brighter side....
great news on the stadium front this pm…positive comments from wild after meeting senjem.
get it done!!!
by los vikingos on Jan 3, 2012 8:41 PM CST via iPhone app reply actions
meant wilf, not wild. sorry
by los vikingos on Jan 3, 2012 8:42 PM CST via iPhone app up reply actions
So...
When does Daily Norseman have an exclusive with our new GM? Y’all (At first I typed you guys, but changed it cuz of Skol Girl) went to training camp, that means you must be like #2 in line for an exclusive, lol. But seriously I want a write up with him, and with all the standard sarcasm and wit. Chop chop!
Whatever I guess !
I don’t think people are being fair with the blame.
Yes Childress deserves a lot of blame, but the Spielman & Co. were a big part of it too….so was Wilff!
Hopefully this is a step in the right direction…..If Willf is going to hold the GM accountable then great. otherwise this is just another creative “Job-Title”
The Vikings just went 3-13 and nobody’s been fired.
Most GM’s with Spielmans W/L record, and lack of depth-chart would be fired….but Spielmans getting a raise.
Something tells me that Vikings fans are going to be disappointed for the next few years :(
I don't understand all the hate for Spielman...
Spielman is already hard at work. According to the Viking Age, Spielman just signed ANOTHER Chicago Bears wide receiver!!
by vking1 on Jan 4, 2012 12:17 AM CST via mobile reply actions
Some interesting things coming out
@TomPelissero
Funny hearing that Spielman “overestimated” #Vikings roster. No he didn’t. Frazier did. And that’s part of why the structure had to change.
That’s not to absolve Spielman of what happened. He was a part of it. But competing agendas led to a half-rebuilding year, which isn’t good.
Spielman wanted to blow it up. Frazier wanted to hold it together. Now it’s Spielman’s ballgame. Hello, youngest team in the NFL.
Nothing too earth shattering, but at least Spielman had the right idea…as opposed to Frazier.
The real problem is no one was looking at the future
Instead they are reacting to the now. You need a good GM to steer the ship so that in three years it’s where it needs to be and the years after that it continues to sail the correct course. If we had a true GM there is no way we’re not pickiing up a QB after Favre.
The Vikes aren't in a remodeling or reconstruction they are in a burn the place down and start praying they don't mimic the Lions rebuilding process.
They would just say they had Tjack
Which is odd, since saying we had Webb we could of pick up others is considered a bad argument.
2011 Vikings, keeping the liquor industry in the green ALL YEAR LONG!
Yeah but Webb isn't a QB.
Neither is TJ.
The Vikes aren't in a remodeling or reconstruction they are in a burn the place down and start praying they don't mimic the Lions rebuilding process.
everyone is entitled to their opinion :)
2011 Vikings, keeping the liquor industry in the green ALL YEAR LONG!
This has to be the most frustrating part of this season from my perspective.
With the season pretty much dead and buried after the first four games, Frazier still resisted playing the younger guys on the team. His agenda were the wins, but the vets weren’t getting it done. I would have liked to have seen the GM take Frazier aside and tell him to win with the younger guys. (As an aside, who in good conscious could suggest that McNabb should have been put as the #2 guy after Ponder replaced him. That robbed Webb of valuable back up reps until late in the season).
Frazier played this entire season as though the Vikings were half pregnant. I think Spielman is going to love this offseason, because there shouldn’t be any sacred cows. Well maybe Peterson is still a sacred cow. Other than that, I think Spielman is going to basically have a mandate to go out and have some fun and cut and add as he sees fit. If you can’t do that after a 3-13 season, when can you do it?
"Man invented language to satisfy his deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
Your conclusion that there should be no sacred cows is correct...
But I don’t see that coming about, at least the way it is playing out. Frazier wants to keep Muskrat, Frazier kept his job while virtually every other coach with his track record got thrown out on their keister, Spielman didn’t get canned, we still have a QB controversy, we just gave Sully a long-term extension even though the season wasn’t even finished yet so the coach could sit down with him, etc.
by liveforadrenaline on Jan 4, 2012 2:13 PM CST up reply actions
Yeah, I think you're probably right.
(sigh)
"Man invented language to satisfy his deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
Sully's play at C was more the adequate this year.
And if someone else comes along whop is better, his extension is not an earth shattering amount of money that they couldn’t get around. “Pro Football Focus ranks Sullivan the league’s No. 2 center entering Week 15, a rapid ascension for a player who struggled at times during his first three seasons.”
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