My Enemy's Enemy Is My Stadium Buddy, Or Not
by Skol Girl on Jan 31, 2012 10:05 PM CST
in Minnesota Vikings Stadium
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PrintThe on-field struggles for the Minnesota Vikings are over until next season revs up, but the off-field struggles to obtain a deal for a new stadium continue like a kind of political soap opera. And, like a soap opera, there are myriad interests at play over this single issue, making for some very interesting (potential) bedfellows.
According to the early stadium bill framework, there are three principal interests involved in working out a deal to finance and build a new stadium for the Vikings: the team, the state, and a local equity partner. But the longer this process goes on, the more I've come to realize that you'd almost need a program to keep track of all the different entities that have an interest in this stadium legislation. Clearly, not all of these interests have to agree in order for a deal to be completed, but, for even a fraction of them to come to a workable agreement, it has got to be like herding cats.
Until a local partner is chosen, proven to be politically viable as a partner, and written into a bill that is passed, all the possible local partners, technically, still have a chance and we'll have to hear them continue to argue about which site is best. But "local partner" is a pretty vague term because of all the different government interests in any given patch of land. The Arden Hills site had the support of the Ramsey County Commissioners, but not the St. Paul City Council. The situation in Minneapolis is even more complicated because it has three* different sites: the Metrodome site, the Farmers Market site, and the Linden Avenue/Basilica of St. Mary's site. In the last couple weeks support has swung from the Dome site, to the Linden Avenue site, back to the Dome again, and, apparently, even the Farmers Market, depending on who is currently talking to the press. While Governor Mark Dayton said that the Metrodome site seemed the only feasible site if a stadium bill would be passed this legislative session, there's a rumor circulating that if Hennepin County, previously quiet on the stadium issue, got involved that the Farmers Market site could, again, be a possibility.
However, regardless of the site that might become the local equity partner in the stadium proposal, there are neighbors with concerns (Arden Hills residents, the Basilica of St. Mary's, Mary Jo Copeland's Sharing and Caring Hands, etc.), possible voter referendums (yeah, Ramsey County isn't the only one requiring a voter referendum), and city officials disagreeing with county officials or the mayor's office.
On the state side of things, influence is wielded by both the Minnesota Legislature and Governor Dayton (I just lump Dayton's appointees in with him). If last summer's state government shutdown over the budget and the recent fireworks when the state's Senate Republicans rejected Ellen Anderson, Dayton's appointee to chair the Public Utilities Commission is any indication, they don't work well together. Local political analysts are already speculating that this, most recent disagreement between the governor and Legislature (completely unrelated to a stadium proposal) could impact a stadium bill--how much of an impact that might be is unknown right now. The suggestion that party politics could get resentful is shocking to my innocent mind. Next someone's going to tell me the Oscar's are political. Say it ain't so.
The team end of this three-part partnership is the most straight-forward of the three parts. Team ownership makes decisions about the team's future and, publicly, Zygi and Mark Wilf don't seem to disagree about stadium issues--good because we need at least some agreement to give us hope. But like condos, NFL teams come complete with their own association. The NFL owners like to keep the teams competitive because it makes for a better entertainment product. It requires a vote from the NFL owners to sell a team, to move a team, and to finalize a deal for a new stadium. Saturday in the St. Paul Pioneer Press, Bob Sansevere suggested that the NFL owners could be a wildcard in the stadium situation, potentially being able to nix a location so the Wilfs wouldn't have to be the bad guys.
What is funny is that where a new stadium is built might come down to Survivor-esque alliances to prevent one location from scoring the stadium as much as actually wanting the stadium. For instance, back in July 2011, Kathy Langtry, President of the St. Paul City Council said there was no benefit to St. Paul in a county-wide Ramsey County sales tax increase to pay for a Vikings stadium in Arden Hills. But, at the end of January 2012, St. Paul Mayor Chris Coleman says that the stadium plan advocated by Minneapolis Mayor R.T. Rybak would pay off debt on the Target Center "too quickly." Coleman says that would give the Target Center a competitive advantage in booking entertainment acts. And, since the Xcel Energy Center competes with the Target Center to book entertainment, Target Center's advantage is the Energy Center's disadvantage. Looks like there might be a benefit to St. Paul for Arden Hills getting a Vikings' stadium after all. And, if the St. Paul City Council and Mayor Coleman connect those dots, Ramsey County might get some St. Paul support for Arden Hills. Then again, they might not.
That scenario simply serves as an example of a possible political stadium alliance. One would imagine that similar wheels are turning in Minneapolis with all of their potential sites. Just when Vikings fans would hope that the stadium situation might be moving toward greater focus, it looks like things are as open as they were before.
I don't know about you, but I'm going to cross my fingers and hope that Sen. Julie Rosen (R) Fairmont and Rep. Morrie Lanning (R) Moorhead, the legislators who have been working to present stadium legislation, are brushing up on their cat wrangling skills. With the seemingly ever-growing list of interests involved in the Vikings' stadium quest, Rosen and Lanning will need it.
*Lester Bagley said a site southeast of the Metrodome, considered a fourth potential stadium site by some media, is not under active consideration.
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Good article
But my take is things are coalescing around electronic pull tabs for the state contribution, the dome site and the continuation of the Minneapolis sales tax surcharge for he local contribution.
The city charter and council still leaves a lot of uncertainty.
Thanks :)
I was encouraged that lawmakers had settled on electronic pull-tabs. It seems like the most feasible of the gaming options that had been discussed as potential stadium funding.
It really was a little surprising that Rybak’s stadium support from the Minneapolis City Council wasn’t quite as solidified as it seemed. But he says he’s confident that something will work out. I would be really nice to be able to fill in more blanks on the stadium bill.
Life being what it is, one dreams of revenge.
- Paul Gauguin
http://www.dailynorseman.com/
I have been
saying this for some time, that St.paul would be pissed because of the additional monies going to the target center… The two places have to remain competitive, and clearly they will no longer be if the T.C. gets a new face lift… (just had one in 2004)… while the excel gets nothing… as amiller knows, i have been a strong supporter of the AH site, but jesus its getting to the point of even caring where they build it.. just as long as they remain here… however that being said, I as well as most others (according to polls, no facts) still prefer the AH site. And i also strongly believe that ramsey county is being quitely pushed aside by minneapolis minded lawmakers….
It's interesting that St. Paul has been as quiet as it has on the stadium issue.
Other than the City Council saying AH wouldn’t benefit the city much, they have mostly been quiet on the issue. It should be interesting to see if Mayor Coleman’s concern about Target Center’s advantage over Xcel Energy Center involves something more than grousing. Seems silly for him to whine about Minneapolis benefiting from a new stadium when St. Paul didn’t get into the stadium race or support Ramsey County’s bid for a stadium in AH—you snooze, you lose.
Life being what it is, one dreams of revenge.
- Paul Gauguin
http://www.dailynorseman.com/
Thanks, I appreciate it :)
Life being what it is, one dreams of revenge.
- Paul Gauguin
http://www.dailynorseman.com/
If it matters at all...
As a former Minnesota native, I favor the Arden Hills site. As a Viking fan all I can say is get a deal done! ‘Cause w/o the Vikings I will probably never set foot in Minnesota again. I’m not trying to make anyone angry or demean the team in any way. Its just a simple fact that I will have no reason to return to the State that gave up.
There are a lot of out-of-state fans echoing that same sentiment.
I think a lot of the people involved want to see a deal get done, it’s just the process of coming up with a specific deal that can pass the Legislature. And, of course, everyone involved is trying to figure out how best to make a deal work for themselves.
Life being what it is, one dreams of revenge.
- Paul Gauguin
http://www.dailynorseman.com/
An open letter to the politicians of Minnesota
Pull your heads outta your asses and get something done – the Arden Hills site needs to be cleaned up anyways – maybe the state and the feds can pay to get that done – and Zygi will pony up the cost that HE was willing to share and contributate that the the Ramsey County portion and we could get this done already. The state of Minnesota and the city of Minneapolis can keep the Metrodome for their tractor pulls and monster trucks shows and Zygi can build a retractable roof stadium that would be open for ALL Vikings games and closed for a few select activities to appease those advocating a closed facility. Get it done already for God’s sake!!
and while we're at it...
let the Ojibwa tribe build their casino on the AH site and funnel a percentage towrds renovating the Target Center
I wonder what the other Indian Gaming interests in Minnesota would say...
If that tribe was able to build on the Arden Hills site?
Life being what it is, one dreams of revenge.
- Paul Gauguin
http://www.dailynorseman.com/
Something tells me...
that the SMSC (the Sioux community who runs Mystic Lake) would not be pleased. They have the most profitable casino in the state right now, no question.
I can't help thinking it could become a mess very quickly.
Life being what it is, one dreams of revenge.
- Paul Gauguin
http://www.dailynorseman.com/
people keep forgetting this aspect about the AH site
IIRC the purchase agreement from the federal government includes the feds doing the toxic waste cleanup before the site ownership would be transferred, so “cleanup costs” are irrelevant
I think there are about 11 tribes in Minnesota.
I haven’t heard anyone suggest this, but I wonder whether a project that involved all the poorer tribes to partner in a Arden Hills casino could counteract the Indian gaming lobby.
Currently, it seems the tribes with casino properties closest to the Cities benefit greatly while those in remote areas get diddly-squat from gaming. An Arden Hills casino that benefits poor rural tribes might be a bit more palatable to some legislators. At this point in time it’s only the legislature that needs that needs to be satisfied.
by Lars in SLP on Feb 1, 2012 11:49 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
You trying to start a war?
Not a bad idea really but…
Build up your weaknesses until they become your strong points." --Knute Rockne
A lot of tribes currently get nothing from gambling.
Divide and conquer, baby.
But seriously, this same argument could be used to promote racino as well.
by Lars in SLP on Feb 1, 2012 12:13 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
That's what the White Earth plan was...
…if I’m not mistaken. The revenue wasn’t supposed to go only to the White Earth tribe but some grouping of the outstate tribes (not sure if it was all of them, just the northern ones, or what). Will try to come up with an old link if I can. Until then, take it with a grain of salt.
Is Minnesota a gambling destination
without people going there to see the Twins, Vikings etc,,,? We gamble because we can.
with the gambling age of 18
I know a lot of high school and college kids that went up to Mystic lake on the weekends to gamble
when asked by Dan Patrick if his name alluded to not making quick decisions in the pocket, Ponder calmly replied "As crazy as it sounds, my mom's maiden name is actually Superbowlwinner. All one word"
After the ridiculousness of the lockout, I have little faith in the collection of NFL owners to step up on this one
The $200M loan they are willing to give the Vikings is one thing, but they will certainly not add to it. I don’t think Wilf would even want to borrow more $$ from the NFL because that’s still $$ that is going to have to get paid back by the team. So that would still come back to more $$ out of Wilf’s pocket which he doesn’t seem inclined to do and i seriously doubt the NFL will “give” him any $$.
White Horn Gold Pants
Good article!
Covered the complexities nicely. Also, hat tip for noting the Hennipen County rumor. I’ve been more interested in their potential interest ever since Rybak revealed the Vikings were pretty deep into negotiations with them about a year ago or so.
Thanks :)
With all the rumors flying around, it is hard to eliminate any of the stadium sites from the running. We seems stuck with “more likely” and “less likely” than “in” and “out”.
Life being what it is, one dreams of revenge.
- Paul Gauguin
http://www.dailynorseman.com/
I'm betting the solution (though not the site)...
…will probably come out of the blue and be a surprise to many folks. No inside info, just my guess. That’s basically how the Twins deal went down and reading the folks who closely watched that deal happen has got me agreeing that the same thing could happen here.
I would assume the Basillica location is the only, if any, that we can cross off
That’s the only one where the specific location causes a PR nightmare. Something I’m assuming the Vikes, NFL, and local authorities will try to avoid at all cost.
White Horn Gold Pants
The Farmers Market site also has some potential for negative PR.
Mary Joe Copeland isn’t keen to move her charity Sharing and Caring Hands. Some plans have the charity staying in place even if a stadium is built in that neighborhood, but I’ve read some speculation that a Vikings stadium being neighbors with her charity would be problematic. At any rate, she doesn’t want to move and has made her position on that clear. From what she has said, it would appear that any attempt to move her will be met with resistance and bad press.
Life being what it is, one dreams of revenge.
- Paul Gauguin
http://www.dailynorseman.com/
I really don't get her objection
Or see any reason why she would have to move. I don’t see why a stadium is a terrible neighbor, especially given the desolation that’s currently there.
Although as they have 92 units of housing, I would agree that any plan that required them to move would be a bad idea.
Yeah, I'm not sure why having her charity and a stadium in the same neighborhood would be so bad.
There may be a solid reason as to why that wouldn’t work, I just don’t know what it is.
Life being what it is, one dreams of revenge.
- Paul Gauguin
http://www.dailynorseman.com/
And with all the public statements we read...
…there’s no telling how much of what she says is putting everyone on notice and strengthening her position to negotiate a move that is best for her organization and how much of it is truly how she feels.
That is a good point.
It’s hard to tell whether it is a bargaining tactic or an immovable position.
Life being what it is, one dreams of revenge.
- Paul Gauguin
http://www.dailynorseman.com/
Also, that is still one of my favorite SB commercials.
Ah, the dotcom era. When companies you’d never heard with services you didn’t know anything about bought lots of SB airtime for crazy commercials.
Yeah, the dotcom era was like a goldrush lead by geeks and shady investment bankers instead of grizzled prospectors.
Life being what it is, one dreams of revenge.
- Paul Gauguin
http://www.dailynorseman.com/
Nice article and great analogy
You’re exactly right about needing a program to keep track of all of the different entities involved. There’s way too many cooks in the kitchen for a simple meal. I’d throw in my $7.30 cents for simplicity.
For every time spent on this issue, it is time taken away from local and state business issues. Even 10 years of talk couldn’t prevent the crisis we’re facing. It’s way too complex.
They say the unwinding of a stock market hedge fund is a complicated process. I’ve never fully understood why. I guess the same could be for the metrodome. How does the MSC unwind pro football from operations there? minneapolis & st paul getting into cat fights over who has what turns me off (baseball=mpls, basketball=mpls, football=mpls, hockey=st paul, convention ctr=mpls, and the fracas going on between Xcel Energy Center and Target center for events can be nasty). To the uneducated, having all pro sports in one city and none in the other is an imbalance.
You summed it up best:
What is funny is that where a new stadium is built might come down to Survivor-esque alliances to prevent one location from scoring the stadium as much as actually wanting the stadium.
Electronic pull tabs, for some reason doesn’t quite resonate as a solution. What % would play it? what % would do so on a regular basis? What if everyone stopped playing or decided not to play it because the main venue it supports is the stadium and they’re not interested in supporting it via choice. it may be a ‘kick the can’ temporary solution for 5 years but 25-30 years down the road? It’s time to have the process become simpler instead of a massive pulsating white lights migraine situation. Figure out a tax (or politically correct ‘sports infrastructure entertainment fee’ and be done with it. People will not mind paying for a good product. Let’s do it right for the long term.
The idea of possibly building on a site nearby the dome brings to mind another benefit of Arden Hills and how it can be more capable for growth and expansion of building a 2nd stadium nearby in 30-50 years just in case this stadium issue has to be revisited all over again. That said, a short lived site in Minneapolis is no better than the dome situation. Minneapolis being fragmented with no real viable solution (other than metrodome) is wasting everyone’s time.
Time is what we’re running out of and the NFL Front office issued a stern warning about it last fall. A schedule has to be set and the Vikings need a place to play.
Will someone step up and be a good host?
Vikings in 2012 will be a Wonder-ful year. Seriously!!
I also love the game of golf. My favorite golf GPS app is OptimalClub.
It is hands down the BEST golf aid you'll ever have for club distances
under current elevation and weather conditions. Stop guessing & score low!
by VikesFanSince1967 on Feb 1, 2012 9:38 AM CST reply actions
Because the electronic pull-tabs are just a different version of the pull-tabs that are already in use...
Lawmakers feel confident in their estimates of the demand for the product. The Indian Gaming interests in the state have been okay with the use of pull-tabs and, so far, do not feel that it threatens their gaming revenues. That was not the case with the rasino concepts that had been suggested as a way of financing a stadium—the tribes were not fans of the idea. Electronic pull-tabs are something that those who oppose the stadium, will never have to contribute to. The current atmosphere isn’t giving the impression of a setting where voters will approve a new tax or a tax increase. Part of that is because, despite using a stadium only 10-12 games a season, people perceive the tax solely as a subsidy for rich team owners, ignoring all the other events (like high school sports championships) that would also be held there.
Life being what it is, one dreams of revenge.
- Paul Gauguin
http://www.dailynorseman.com/
There is a new twist in Minneapolis...again.
There seems to be trouble in River City with the Convention Center and where to get the funding for some unforeseen design problems with it’s domes.
I don’t think this is anywhere near being a deal breaker. But it will need to be addressed before a stadium deal is cut or in conjunction with a stadium deal.
Domes are not the friends of Minneapolis or the Vikings.
Your fantasy football expert since Jerry Rice's rookie year.
If the concerns about the Convention Center domes cause anxiety about the funds available for a new stadium...
That may impact the feasibility of a deal at the Metrodome site. The site feasibility study done on the Arden Hills site in Ramsey County suggested that financing with a .5% sales tax increase could negatively impact the county’s ability to raise funds for other county projects. If the Convention Center roof costs claim a greater amount of the revenue that was suggested for stadium construction, the Minneapolis City Council and the Minnesota Legislature may find the plan inadvisable for the same reason the sales tax increase in Ramsey County was deemed a bad idea—it hampers the area’s ability to raise additional funds if additional funds are needed.
Life being what it is, one dreams of revenge.
- Paul Gauguin
http://www.dailynorseman.com/
I wondered for a second
Whether the title of this post was meant to be a reference to a David Sedaris story (audio) about his experimentation with an, um accessory meant to alleviate the need to stand in the line for the bathroom at games. But I guess that devide was called Stadium Pal, not Stadium Buddy (as my faulty memory told me).
A friend lent me Sedaris' book Naked and I really enjoyed his self-depricating humor.
One can only imagine what he did with material as good as experimenting with the “Stadium Pal.” Incidentally, the Metrodome would be a good place to use a device like that because at half-time it’s difficult to make it to the bathrooms and the concession stands without missing part of the third quarter.
Life being what it is, one dreams of revenge.
- Paul Gauguin
http://www.dailynorseman.com/
Well the only good news about this stadium crap
is that we’re not talking about Ponder vs Webb yet…
As for the cowboys herding cats is it bad of me to have wanted to see the actual Dallas team out there running around like a bunch of chickens with their heads cut off?
The Vikes aren't in a remodeling or reconstruction they are in a burn the place down and start praying they don't mimic the Lions rebuilding process.
Just wait till next season
and you can see the Dallas Cowboys running around like a bunch of chickens with their heads cut off.
261 Daily Norseman readers and counting say I am a genius... the masses have spoke!
...and those who voted 'moron' were secretly Packer trolls.
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Jerry Jones is never one to hold back what he thinks :)
Life being what it is, one dreams of revenge.
- Paul Gauguin
http://www.dailynorseman.com/
I gots what the kids call "the plizan".
OK, everyone from each of the states that run lotterys, we gotta play ‘em. Then, when we all win (because we’re Viking fans and that’s all we do!), we pool said money together and build a stadium our damn selves. BRILLIANT!
261 Daily Norseman readers and counting say I am a genius... the masses have spoke!
...and those who voted 'moron' were secretly Packer trolls.
Follow @KJSegall
I kinda wish Zygi would just drop some serious coinage on an AH stadium
That place would be Vikings football heaven(or hell depending on how you look at it)
White Horn Gold Pants
aggreed
I would step up too… I wish we could do some sort of “public option” for use to purchase like they do in green bay (yes i know there are rules against that now… f##$# green bay we got here first and you can’t do it too snobbs)
Vikings Valhalla .com
by Admiral BigGun on Feb 1, 2012 3:31 PM CST up reply actions
Great plan Kyle!
And it will happen with Porcine Airways starts chartering out of the Minneapolis/St. Paul International Airport ;-)
Life being what it is, one dreams of revenge.
- Paul Gauguin
http://www.dailynorseman.com/
Kind of interesting
For an additional $200 million than what he is willing to pay, Ziggy can build his stadium, open air, on his own, get all the profits from it (naming rights, parking, land development) and can then compete for entertainment in the offseason…outside concert venue, anyone? Then we wouldn’t have to worry at all about the politics of it all, nor would the state have to worry about renovating Target Center or Xcel Center. Sounds like a win-win.
Aside from it not being a win-win you mean?
If owning a stadium that only has profitable events like 12 times a year or so was such a great deal, he might be interested.
As it is not, I think the possibility of subsidies is more appealing.
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