A Thought On The Coaching Staff’s Futures
by KJSegall on Jan 4, 2012 2:42 PM CST
Email
PrintWell, the season ended like it pretty much played out all along- a big turd-fest of suckitude. Jared Allen somehow has only 22 sacks despite a monster 3.5 sack game (gee, the Bears actually did everything they could to stop him... unlike dear Strahan's last chance), neither Christian Ponder nor Joe Webb ultimately lit the field up (although Webb really did have some beautiful throws, but I'm still miffed he took a sack rather than throwing the ball away, pushing Longwell back), AP's still in a hospital bed, and... we lost. OK, I'll stop now. You all saw it. And if you didn't... good for you.
Anyways, it's no secret there are some impending personnel changes, both in the coaching staff as well as on the field. Earlier I did an in-depth overview of the top three- Frazier, Pagac, and Musgrave- but let's go ahead and expand that to the entire coaching staff, sans assistants. Let's review our various coaches, and see who's likely to be here next year, and who should really be hitting up that Kinko's Ted mentioned a few weeks back.
Leap of Faith!
Leslie Frazier, HC. Love him or hate him, he's here next year. Personally, I like that. This team fought to the bitter end, and did so most of the games they lost. Unlike the Buccaneers, who recently fired everyone from Raheem Morris down to the water boy, this team remained motivated throughout the storm. And really, that's one of a Head Coach's most important jobs- to keep the team motivated. Yes, halftime adjustments sucked, but hopefully that will upgrade with some new coordinators and assistant coaches, and can be worked on. If you can't motivate your team in tough times, though- you'll never motivate your team in tough times.
Fred Pagac, DC. Love him or hate him, he's a dead man walking. Steve Spagnuoloadfljsdfidontfeellikegooglingthecorrectwaytospellthatdamnname is free. If nobody offers him a head coaching position elsewhere, I'm totally sold on Ted's suggestion we go after him.
Bill Musgrave, OC. Frazier gave him a vote of confidence recently, preferring the continuity at that position whilst continuing to develop Christian Ponder/ Joe Webb. Me, I'm not a big fan of that, and would rather we look for an upgrade and take a shot to see if he'd be willing to change over to QB coach, but I'm sure Frazier's word has more weight with Zygi Wilf and co. than mine.
Karl Dunbar, D-line. He recently claimed he's quitting, which is a little shocking to me. Our D-line wasn't quite as truly solid (outside of Jared Allen) as it has been in recent years, but it was still a bright point in our defense, and we've got two stellar playmakers there- Kevin Williams and Jared Allen- and at least a serviceable left end in Brian Robison. The DT position next to Williams needs an upgrade, but that can be arranged, either with a move to one of our depth guys or a FA move for, oh, say, AMOBI OKOYE. Dammit. Anyways, if he is indeed quitting, we'll have to find someone new to fill that position, and seeing as how it is again our strength on defense, that will be of key importance. Oh, and not only did Jared Allen essentially blackball the idea of a move to a 3-4, so did Kevin Williams. Considering that, there's no way IMO we make that move within the next 2-3 years. A little off-topic I suppose, but worth remembering when searching for a new D-line guy, should that indeed be the necessity.
Joe Woods, Secondary. So, teams think he can be a head coach? Go for it. Preferably a team within the NFC North. No, seriously. Mike MaCarthy is a hack compared to him. Green Bay would be dumb not to make the switch.
Seriously.
Oh, right, the thought on him. Uh, we need a new secondary coach. And a new secondary while at it.
Mike Singletary, LBs. Like Musgrave, I sincerely doubt that Frazier will dump him, although arguments could be made that he should. Still, to be fair, the LB corps suffered schematically the same issue they did last year- they essentially had to be both the LBs as well as the secondary. So, while it seemed like there was always 10 yards right in the middle of the field- you know, where those LBs are supposed to be- I don't know how much of that issue I'm willing to put on Singletary. Tough call IMO, but I think he's definitely back next year whether we like it or not.
Mike Preifer, Special Teams. Hmmm. Special teams had both good and bad moments. I think we should keep him for now, unless there's someone way better available. Overall, outside of Ryan Longwell apparently trying to throw the game against Washington, ST play was decent for the most part.
Jeff Davidson, O-line. Like Woods, we need a new O-line coach, and once again, a new O-line while at it. Sometimes it's not fair to throw stuff at a coach's feet when he has nothing to work with. But then again, that's the way it goes. In all likelihood I think this guy's gone.
George Stewart, WRs. Unlike Woods and Davidson, despite the WR corps general woes this season, I don't think this guy is getting the axe. All in all, there were flashes of brilliance from a band of misfits (outside of Percy Harvin), like Devin Aromashodu's big catches here and there and Greg Camarillo's third down glories. He seemed to be able to make the most out of a bad situation, which differentiates him IMO from the above two coaches I think should go, and that will likely buy him some more time.
James Saxon, RBs. When AP goes down and Toby Gerhart busts out a 100+ yard game after, your job is safe. RBs is really the only reliable thing we've got going offensively right now, and how much is him and how much is just ‘AP and Gerhart are really good' is immaterial.
Jimmie Johnson, TEs. Like Saxon, his squad performed admirably, and like the desire for continuation with Musgrave, I think he's going nowhere as we are developing Kyle Rudolph. He's safe.
Craig Johnson, QBs. Unless we get a new OC and can shift Musgrave to this job, I think he's back, too. If you're going to keep a mediocre OC for the continuity of your young QBs' developments, the same likely will hold true with CJohnson, as well. Hopefully, he can ‘QB whisper' Ponder out of his seemingly shell-shocked state.
Tom Canavy, Strength and Conditioning. I wouldn't normally include this position in such a run-down but I will here because I think he needs to go. The team seemed to gas out at times, especially earlier in the season. And that falls on the conditioning guy's shoulders. Our team needs to be physically prepared to play a full 60 minutes of football. Frazier seems to have them mentally prepared, so we need a guy to match that at this position.
What say you, my fellow Viking faithful? No poll as the variety of options would break the internet. Plus, there are some malcontents out there who insist on saying ‘Other' without specification. You know who you are.
102 comments
|
0 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
kleinsasser for S&C!
maybe O-line coach, since he was our best tackle last year.
If the Sauce is back I would hope it would be in a jersey, he is our best tackle.
Also I have to say it would be total CRAP if Frazier was gone. Give him at least 1 actual season with his team for Christ sakes! Give the man at least a season with an offseason before it before we jump all over his ass.
\m/
by Edgecrusher71 on Jan 4, 2012 7:50 PM CST up reply actions
The O line coach is new, he came up with Musgrave so I don't think he'll be leaving.
I wonder if Dunbar is quitting because Pagac for the DC job and now that Pagac looks to be going they are once again looking for someone other than Dunbar for the position. Strength and Conditioning coach needs to go for sure. Part of his job should be keeping people limber enough that injuries don’t bite as badly. WR’s should get kicked his eye for talent is terrible. Joe Woods needs to be tied to a rail then dropped in the Mississippi…
I will miss Dunbars ugly mug though.
The Vikes aren't in a remodeling or reconstruction they are in a burn the place down and start praying they don't mimic the Lions rebuilding process.
by Grime on Jan 4, 2012 3:32 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
About the WR coach,
It’s not his job to sign the talent. It’s his job to work with what they give him. Which he did pretty well considering what they did give him. I think he stays.
Yep.
My thoughts on that matter exactly. How much input he had in the whole situation I don’t know, but let’s also consider- who were we really going to pick up in FA, anyways?? Sidney Rice was ironically the only WR out there who was going to be a superstar. Michael Jenkins and Devin Aromashodu, considering the FA class that we were picking from, weren’t terrible additions.
261 Daily Norseman readers and counting say I am a genius... the masses have spoke!
...and those who voted 'moron' were secretly Packer trolls.
Follow @KJSegall
How does that not apply to the oline coach?
I’m pretty sure it wasn’t his choice to cut his starting left tackle before the pre-season even started? He had aging/injured guards all season. He developed Sullivan into a serviceable center. Changed the blocking scheme from a purely zone blocking scheme into a combination of everything. Reduced the number of penalties on Loadholt. The only thing I really didn’t like was that they didn’t get the young guys Fusco and Love in there enough but that wasn’t really his decision to make. I would give him another year to see what he can do in a complete off-season.
by Simply_Greatness on Jan 4, 2012 7:25 PM CST up reply actions
Just stating what I think
This isn’t the first year that the Vikings receivers have been weak, If this guy has watched Berrian slump into obscurity then that’s reason enough to toss him. I don’t know if these people have say in the drafting process or not, but I will say this, if I’m a position coach I’m making my opinion known about each player I think we should look at. If he’s not doing at least that then again I think he should be looking for a new job.
The Vikes aren't in a remodeling or reconstruction they are in a burn the place down and start praying they don't mimic the Lions rebuilding process.
I just kinda get the feeling
that position coaches don’t get much say in who they get to coach. They have to do as good a job as they can with the guys that they have.
All stay
I know it said Dunbar was quitting but I would like to keep him. I think they all need to stay. With the talent they had this year they really didn’t have a lot to work with. The above mentioned positions they said did well were positions that had good depth. The others were like dipping from a dry well. There wasn’t anybody there. We have an actual G.M. now sorta, so give it another year then have this conversation next year. As far as the strength and conditioning guy keep him too because the defense was gassed even early in the season because they were on the field all the time.
'OFF WITH THEIR HEADS!'
With the talent they had this year they really didn’t have a lot to work with. The above mentioned positions they said did well were positions that had good depth. The others were like dipping from a dry well. There wasn’t anybody there.
The lack of talent is part of the issue.
Woods, for instance, has had not just 2 years of crap. His body of work spans 6 years of crappy secondaries.
And yes, I’m including Sharper in this, because, as we saw after Sharper LEFT, he was still quite good with his new team. More than that, Sharper was let go because he apparently was losing a step, couldn’t tackle the way he used to. In short, he was being mis-used in the scheme.
Winfield has been the secondary’s only consistent bright spot, but the man’s getting long in the tooth and can’t be expected to keep up any more.
Joe Woods is a train wreck spanning 6 years of terrible play, and continuing to field the likes of Tyrell Johnson long after the rest of the league knows that Johnson is a third-string safety, AT BEST.
Grime is generous in using the Mississippi, but in these trying economic times, he’s right. The Vikings just can’t afford a special trip out to the Mariannas Trench, that money would be better used in bringing in a quality secondary coach.
And the strength and conditioning coaches are beyond worthless, they’re getting our top players injured. Other teams don’t get “gassed” the way the Vikings do, every single game. It can no longer be blamed on a shortened training camp, or the defense being put upon to play 5 extra minutes on the field beyond what the offense played. They do get breaks and those breaks aren’t enough.
Ah, ah,
We come from the land of the ice and snow,
From the midnight sun where the hot springs blow.
The hammer of the gods will drive our ships to new lands,
To fight the horde, singing and crying: Valhalla, I am coming!
SKOL!
Let's not forget Canavy's assistants too
Ah, ah,
We come from the land of the ice and snow,
From the midnight sun where the hot springs blow.
The hammer of the gods will drive our ships to new lands,
To fight the horde, singing and crying: Valhalla, I am coming!
SKOL!
Musgrave
Is a tough one. There were some strange decisions and some bad play calls. But at least it wasn’t Chilly ball. I’d rather have the occasional fake handoff to Ponder than an offense that isn’t interested in getting more than three yards per play.
Okay, so now that I’ve said that, Martz anyone??
(I’ll duck now)
As for everyone below coordinator, I don’t know how fans can really have a view. The performance of the squad on the field may or may not have anything to do with the position coach’s abilities, in large part because play calling and scheme, which are handled up the chain, have a lot more to do with it than teaching the position.
Oh, and Singletary is likely gone.
Martz
runs an offense that would be TERRIBLE for this team. Just look at what has happened to Jay Cutler in his tenure- you want the guy creating that situation, coupled with our O-line, coupled with a young QB who’s already more shell-shocked than trench warfare soldiers in WWI? Not to mention his play-calling essentially ignores the run aspect of the game, which is the exact opposite of how this team is built personnel-wise right now.
I agree to a certain extent that certain position coaches may be taking a bad rap due to the derth of talent at said positions. And you could point at bad play-calling and schemes being responsible for certain let-downs in those departments. However, coaches typically take the fall when their area underperforms, fair or not. Saxon may be a terrible RB coach, but AP/ Gerhart are so good you can’t tell. And Woods may be the best secondary coach in the world, but with the tragic dumpster fire that existed out there, you also probably couldn’t tell, either. However, that’s not likely the case. A strong position coach SHOULD be able to milk the best out of what he’s given, teaching certain players how to up their game at least some. In terms of O-line and secondary, that didn’t happen at all.
261 Daily Norseman readers and counting say I am a genius... the masses have spoke!
...and those who voted 'moron' were secretly Packer trolls.
Follow @KJSegall
Sorry!
Yeah, sarcasm doesn’t always come across clearly through the tubes that create the interwebz. I kinda flipped out when I saw that name, LOL. My bad!
261 Daily Norseman readers and counting say I am a genius... the masses have spoke!
...and those who voted 'moron' were secretly Packer trolls.
Follow @KJSegall
it would be greate AD would just crush Martz's head in his bicep.
The Vikes aren't in a remodeling or reconstruction they are in a burn the place down and start praying they don't mimic the Lions rebuilding process.
by Grime on Jan 5, 2012 8:14 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I'm still stuck on what our offensive strategy is supposed to be
If I spend the next 400 years I might get it figured out.
The bad:
It makes zero sense to keep Musgrave. He doesn’t have any strategy whatsoever to get us to a Super Bowl. He just throws up endless trick plays hoping they will work, but few of them are well thought out or executed properly. We have about 8 million different plays and don’t spend enough time practicing any of them, rather than doing what the better teams do, which is give the quarterback the ability to make on-field minor adjustments of the same play.
I simply can’t grade anyone of Musgrave’s assistants until it is known what Musgrave is trying to do.
For instance, we use our tight ends for maybe 2 or 3 pass plays a game. That’s insane, especially when we can’t get the ball downfield. No other team that wins relies on fewer than 10 or so tight end passes a game. Kleinsasser had one ALL SEASON. No one knows if Rudolph will ever pan out as a TE, because we don’t use him often enough. I can’t grade the TE coach as a result of my inability to understand the playcalling.
I can’t grade the WR coach because I have no idea why we are hardly ever passing to Harvin on designed downfield plays. Every receiver we have is clogging up the middle of the field instead of stretching it. I think we went downfield less than a dozen times in the whole last half of the season. Poor play strategy and design. Musgrave? Yep.
Craig Johnson is a tough one to evaluate as QB coach. I think we have so far done a poor job of developing Webb, who has massive raw talent. We still have a QB controversy, so part of this will be on Johnson if it continues into next year.
Pagac is completely clueless, not for just his defensive playcalling but also for inability to control his players and get them on board. Mutinies cannot result in SB wins.
by liveforadrenaline on Jan 4, 2012 3:46 PM CST reply actions
hmm
I think we haven’t been throwing to the TE because they’ve been kept in for protection due to the crappy line, but I’m not sure about that.
One throw to Kleinsasser all year is one too many. Zero is the right number for him. But more throws to Rudolph and Shiancoe would be good.
Also, I’m not sure how you can say we have too many plays. We seemed to be running a very limited playbook in the later part of the season.
As for not throwing down field as much, again, I’m not sure how you are supposed to do that without decent pass protection.
Part of the problem with using your tight ends to block 100% of the time
Is that you just get more rushers.
Vicious circle.
by liveforadrenaline on Jan 4, 2012 4:50 PM CST up reply actions
It's true, but
I see amiller92’s point. We practically don’t have an O-line outside of a serviceable center, so we’re forced to play that devil’s game and try and get SOMEONE who can block in on that action, even if it does allow for an extra rusher.
261 Daily Norseman readers and counting say I am a genius... the masses have spoke!
...and those who voted 'moron' were secretly Packer trolls.
Follow @KJSegall
Yeah, not trying to sound overthink this
But the last year that Kleinsasser caught more than 30 passes was 8 years ago.
That’s definitely not all on these coaches, but it brings two questions up: Has our o-line sucked so bad all these years? And how can you have a potent passing game, like Brady or Brees (with Graham) if you rarely pass to tight ends?
by liveforadrenaline on Jan 4, 2012 5:03 PM CST up reply actions
We won't have a potent passing game
without an O-line, period. Brady and Brees wouldn’t have gotten halfway to Marino’s record behind that thing we call a line.
261 Daily Norseman readers and counting say I am a genius... the masses have spoke!
...and those who voted 'moron' were secretly Packer trolls.
Follow @KJSegall
I hear that our o-line sucks a lot
But I get frustrated because certainly Spielman, and maybe Frazier, were responsible for making changes from only a year and a half ago when Favre was still throwing well behind our line.
They got rid of McKinnie because playing someone overweight was not “safe.” What kind of lame statement is that?
If the guy can’t play, that is one thing, but to put it off on health sends a notice to other guys that performance on the field is secondary to any number of things. Mckinnie, while not a superstar, could play. Replacing him with Johnson was a terrible decision.
Gahhhhhhhh!!!
by liveforadrenaline on Jan 4, 2012 7:39 PM CST up reply actions
They got rid of McKinnie
Because he was overpaid, underproducing and not with the program. Frazier and company needed to send the message to the team that everyone needed to do what is expected of a professional whether they are a vet or not. That was an important message in the wake of Chilly and Favre and had little to do with the short term performance of the team.
The guy was an attitude problem, so they got rid of him. Hard to criticize that.
Its about sending a message to the team that no one is safe.
Denny Green did something similar, cutting a lot of defensive talent when he arrived, because he was the “new sheriff in town”.
by vking1 on Jan 5, 2012 9:22 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
when you don't have any depth
you don’t have the luxury to “send a message”.
I don't see it as a luxury
I see it as a necessity. Installing discipline and not coddling lazy players is how you turn a team around.
I am still applauding the fact that they finally got rid of Mckinnie.
You don't tug on Superman's cape
You don't spit into the wind
You don't pull the mask of the Spiderman
And you don't trash talk about him
by REVENGE4WEBB on Jan 5, 2012 3:19 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
They couldn't motivate McKinnie
Best to get rid of him.
Even if he’s performing for Baltimore, it just goes to show that they have better coaches, or a team captain who’s capable of leaning on McKinnie when they catch him slacking off.
Ah, ah,
We come from the land of the ice and snow,
From the midnight sun where the hot springs blow.
The hammer of the gods will drive our ships to new lands,
To fight the horde, singing and crying: Valhalla, I am coming!
SKOL!
As far as the coaching or captains...
There are still so many questions with so few answers…
by liveforadrenaline on Jan 5, 2012 4:07 PM CST up reply actions
True
It’s one thing to be traded, its another to be cut. Did the Vikings try to trade him?
by liveforadrenaline on Jan 6, 2012 12:34 PM CST up reply actions
that might have been smarter and garnered at least
a practice squad guy…you know the Vikes wouldn’t want to INCREASE their chances of getting better blocking
Not throwing to sauce
Is not the same as not throwing to the te position. Shanks has gotten plenty of balls in years past.
Musgrave did not use him enough this year. He could have been a better weapon.
You don't tug on Superman's cape
You don't spit into the wind
You don't pull the mask of the Spiderman
And you don't trash talk about him
Just look how Brady
uses his tight ends. Damn that’s a potent offense!
Build up your weaknesses until they become your strong points." --Knute Rockne
I think that might actually be a good thing...
We already know that Rudolph can catch, but we were not sure about blocking. Well, he has certainly got a crash course this year.
I know what you're saying about the TEs liveforadrenaline
During the pre-season we saw lots of TE bunch formations and a couple times the defense had to call time-out because they weren’t sure how to cover it. When Shiancoe had a bad hamstring, Kleinsasser caught several balls. They even started the year with no FBs on the roster like this was going to be a TE based offense. But that petered away and you rarely saw bunch formations. Its like Musgrave wanted one identity to begin with and then lost his way.
by Caretaker QB on Jan 4, 2012 10:39 PM CST up reply actions
Required reading
Before offering any more doom and gloom reports and scenarios I want everyone to read the article by Sir Francis at the Pioneer Press that’s linked elsewhere at DN. He makes the case that this team is not that far away from being a solid team again. Things can change fast in the NFL (good and bad) and I think he makes some really good points – which isn’t surprising since he’s Fran Tarkenton after all.
I think from the list above I see only 2-3 coaches not coming back which sounds about right to me. This was such a weird year with the lockout and all of the personnel changes etc. that I think most of them deserve 1 more year to try to right the ship.
I Love Fran, but....
Look, I’m old enough to remember when Fran was playing. Love the guy. But since he’s left the game, he’s been basically a glorified huckster. He’ll sell anything, anytime, anywhere, to anybody. He’s a shorter, less famous version of Tony Robbins. Heck, he partnered with Tony for a few years. Every single one of his articles in the PP has been bouncy, bouncy, fun, fun, fun, fun. And that’s what he’s being paid to do. But we’re not dealing with Tiggers here.
We’ve been hanging on to this “we’re only 2 or 3 pieces away” crap for too long. And we’re dying a slow, painful death because of it. The sooner we let go and admit that we’re not “this close!”, the sooner we can get on the road to recovery. We don’t need a nip here and tuck there. We need a full body makeover.
Dont put all the blame on the coaches
We wernt good last year either with different OC and other coaches. Coaches can only work with the talent they have.
Remember, Musgrave didn’t know who his QB was going to be until the last week of July. Compare that to our division rivals and it’s a wonder we were scoring at all early in the season. Constantly changing coaches just means we will continue to stink. This staff hasn’t even had one full year yet.
I would take exception to the point about our D line. They stunk it up this year. Williams is on the downside, Robinson can’t stop the run and whoever played the other DT/NT spot got bulldozed. We were 31 of 32 teams in points allowed and despite a great season by Allen, our entire defense stunk.
So at least give the coaches a chance to work FA and the draft and see how the do next year.
by Vikefandc on Jan 4, 2012 4:47 PM CST via mobile reply actions
I think Musgrave was pretty handicapped.
Between McNabb not caring, Ponder being a rookie, and our O-line struggling… there was a lot stacked against him.
I will say this, he did a really good job of using Percy.
The reason I vote for Musgrave to stay, is simply due to his track record with young QB’s. This is the same guy that oversaw an increase in accuracy for Matt Schaub of almost 10 percentage points. Shaub had a completion percentage of 58.3% in 2001 and 69.8% in 2002. Musgrave was OC/QB coach during that time.
Matt Ryan also developed rather well under Musgrave.
That alone should be enough for us to be optimistic.
I agree
that Musgrave’s resume as a QB developer is impressive, to say the least. However, his resume as a full OC is depressing and disturbing- it’s the same flaws over and over, just like what we’ve seen this year. He seems to have a huge thing for trick plays, which, while good here and there (when done right), can’t be the crux of your offense.
261 Daily Norseman readers and counting say I am a genius... the masses have spoke!
...and those who voted 'moron' were secretly Packer trolls.
Follow @KJSegall
I do agree about the trick plays...
I found it odd that he would call the Blazer package on 2nd and long, or run it twice in a row without even considering throwing a pass in there.
Perhaps he knew the season was a lost cause and wanted to put some of this stuff in the back of people’s minds so they are worried about it in the future? I remember Chilly pulling a bunch of trick plays early in his reign, but then he never pulled them back out of his little pouch.
It is tough to say either way, we would have to go back to tapes of the Jacksonville Jaguars in 2004 before we would be able to see what he does with them.
Trick Plays
I think part of the problem is Frazier trying to prove that the Ponder pick wasn’t a reach. Webb was outplaying Ponder. The Vikings were going to start Ponder and still try to find unique ways to fit Webb in. Both of these guys could turn out to be pretty good QB ’s, but Ponder was taken in the first round. The result, trick plays.
by vking1 on Jan 4, 2012 7:15 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
or that Musgrave had no faith in his offense line to do what was drawn up
so he established trick plays to catch the defense over committing.
Billick: "What did McNabb do to deserve being benched?"
Answer: He upset PETA by killing every worm he came across on a football field.
those trick plays usually take more time to develop
and behind our oline, the time just wasn’t there. And yet, he continued with calling that crap. If it don’t work, try, try again is an old adage. I, however, prefer the one that states the definition of crazy…“continuing to do the same thing, but expecting a different result”
Could we get a hot DC candidate considering the major holes we have?
Spagnuolo for instance. Would he agree to be our new DC after giving the lack of talent in the secondary alone? Spielman—or maybe it was Zygi—has said that they are going to get busy in FA, which is great, but considering what a crapshoot FA can be, would that be adequate for someone like him? I think we would have to pay more than any other team to get a coach that anyone else wants. Maybe I’m wrong. Hopefully I’m wrong.
Depends on the pitch.
We DO have good LBs, a HoFer DT and DE. Cook was a good CB before… well, you know. Right now Miami is in the lead for the Fisher sweepstakes… that just proves you don’t have to be a top-level team to land top-level coaching talent.
Keep in mind also, most teams that have good/ great defenses won’t be looking for a new DC anytime soon.
261 Daily Norseman readers and counting say I am a genius... the masses have spoke!
...and those who voted 'moron' were secretly Packer trolls.
Follow @KJSegall
What better way to get back...
To a Head Coach than to turn around the mess that is the Vikings defense. Hell if the defense starts to look solid but the wins don’t come he could be in line for Frasier’s job in a year or two.
by VikesFanInTulsa on Jan 5, 2012 7:16 AM CST up reply actions
No changes for the moment, I say.
Remember, this off-season was shortened by the collective bargaining chicanery, so our coaches as well as our players didn’t have the time necessary to work with each other and establish the proper textbook and workout practices a football team has to have to be successful. Yeah, other teams were successful despite it, but other teams didn’t have new coaches along with new players and offensive and defensive schemes to learn. Give our present crew another season, and if there is no appreciable improvement, then off with their collective heads!
"Never approach a bull from the front, a horse from the rear, or a fool from any direction." - Old Cowboy proverb.
I mostly agree
But given the fact that there was little if any improvement as the season went on in a couple departments I think there should be some turn over. Not the whole lot…just a couple assistants and dc. Good coaches should be able to adjust as the season progresses.
by reebs on Jan 4, 2012 7:16 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
We didn't really have new schemes to learn.
Our head coach was the defensive coordinator for the same group of guys last year. No more than 1-2 new guys starting on defense. Same tampa cover 2 scheme as last year. Despite a new DC, same system.
The offense was still built around Peterson, like it was last year. Horrible Oline ensured that any qb would not have the time to throw deep, nor would the receivers have time to run any deep or “complicated” routes. The only new players: 1 starting lineman, 2 qb’s and 1 tight end. The only difference in schemes was specific play calling and more gimmicks that still didn’t work.
DC = HC internship
This is the perfect time to find some young promising DC candidate and bring him in now to learn for a year so that he’s ready to replace Frazier – if needed. We’ve had 3 different Coordinators leave and go on to win the SB in the past 15 years. Let’s keep the next one here – so no retreads like Spagnuolo who cannot be a HC.
by Torstein on Jan 4, 2012 5:54 PM CST via mobile reply actions
i don’t think spagnuolo can’t be a HC, lots of first time HC’s fail….that being said, he clearly wasn’t ready to be a HC now. so i totally get what you are saying. but if the team starts being more successful, we aren’t gonna need a new HC. and if the team totally sucks, most likely the entire coaching staff will get shitcanned, ya know?
I would place the blame for Spag's failures
mostly on a very talent deficient team. They’ve been picking high for a while but still have no WRs or DBs. The coach will always take the blame when the team loses but they just aren’t that good despite the playoff appearance last year.
by Bodysuit Man on Jan 5, 2012 11:39 AM CST up reply actions
The Rams
didn’t make the playoffs last year, the Seahawks did.
261 Daily Norseman readers and counting say I am a genius... the masses have spoke!
...and those who voted 'moron' were secretly Packer trolls.
Follow @KJSegall
Just a thought...You should add a poll to this fanpost. Something like:
How confident are you in the current coaching staff?
1. Totally Confident
2. Moderately Confident
3. It’s Hard to say at this time
4. Worried and Apprehensive
5. None, I don’t think these guys know what the hell they are doing.
You don't tug on Superman's cape
You don't spit into the wind
You don't pull the mask of the Spiderman
And you don't trash talk about him
6. Hide the kitchen utensils
Build up your weaknesses until they become your strong points." --Knute Rockne
Probably should have.
Oh well, too late now.
261 Daily Norseman readers and counting say I am a genius... the masses have spoke!
...and those who voted 'moron' were secretly Packer trolls.
Follow @KJSegall
We have "good LBs?"
I think we only have two defensive players (Allen, Williams) who are in the top half of the league at their position. I can’t remember a linebacker on our team making a great play all year (not saying they didn’t but I can’t recall one). At best maybe Henderson or Greenway is barely in the top tier. But we pay them top tier money. This is what we have to change. If we pay top dollar, we need to get top dollar – this is the whole game with the cap. In 2009, we were ok, but Noe were looking 3 years on and those getting top dollar are giving us declining performance. I think EJ has been amazing this year considering what he’s been through but he is nowhere near the level he was in 2009 before the leg broke. Greenway is a solid LB and way above average tackler, but he’s not fast. Erin would be a backup on most teams.
And our secondary is a mess. We go into next year with one CB and one below average safety.
I think with 3 players on offense (two OL and a WR) we can be a top tier offense. But we need a lot of help to become a better defense. We need a DT, 2 LBs, 2 corners (I’m assuming Cook won’t be a Viking next year), and a safety. That’s half the D we need to replace/upgrade.
by Vikefandc on Jan 4, 2012 7:55 PM CST via mobile reply actions
I agree
Even with losing a step it seemed like Ben Leber last year came up with “splash” plays – as Frazier calls them. The group of Leber, EJ, and Greenway played alot better together than this year’s trio.
Imagine how terrible our secondary would’ve looked without Allen and Robison crashing the pocket. Everyone would have put Drew Brees type numbers up against us.
by Caretaker QB on Jan 4, 2012 10:49 PM CST up reply actions
They pretty much did
except for 4 or 5 games.
by Bodysuit Man on Jan 5, 2012 11:59 AM CST up reply actions
See, again I disagree due to
the schematic difficulties our LBs faced. They were constantly out of position thanks to the need to either a.) get back and help the secondary make tackles, or b.) get up into the line to help with the pass rush. There wasn’t a lot of chances for them to actually do their jobs. EJ Henderson and Chad Greenway still had quite a few tackles. In terms of solo tackles alone, Greenway was #9 in the league, and Henderson was #17. (Erin Henderson was way down there. I stopped counting at 50 and he was at least 10 spots below that.) To me, again considering how badly they were constantly out of position (due to schematic needs, not to any failure on their part), that’s pretty impressive. I know stats alone don’t tell the full story- especially just one stat- but I think couple it with what I pointed out earlier about the needs placed upon them, it does in fact show that they were pretty good.
Erin Henderson is OK, I suppose. I still agree with Leber being replaced, however, seeing as how he was cut from- of all teams- the RAMS prior to the season ending, and was WAYYY down there in the stats lines. (I didn’t see any Rams games so stats is all I can speak to- however, if again he was cut after only 7 games, I feel like I’m not missing anything here.)
The catch here I will agree with is that EJ may not be back next year. I’m not entirely sure how I feel about that, as we didn’t even see his heir apparent (Brinkley) on the field this year. But the man is aging.
261 Daily Norseman readers and counting say I am a genius... the masses have spoke!
...and those who voted 'moron' were secretly Packer trolls.
Follow @KJSegall
i just don’t think the vikings have much of a choice. we need to get younger on D…well, the whole team really, but the D especially. we also need to get TALENTED youth lol. i realize that asher allen is only 23 but….anyways. off topic. im not really sure what to make of Brinkley….we really haven’t much of him since his rookie year…
And that is why the Triangle of Authority fails and why
the new GM should have been fired, rather than promoted. It was the front office’s idea to end load multiple player contracts to where they get more money on the declining side of their career.
DEFENSE HAS
Become overrated. Not that it is not important, remember everyone the two worst defenses are the number one seeds in the playoffs! A good oline and serviceable to good receiver’s and tight-ends can be great when the Q.B. has time to throw. Remember Moss was done and then he went to play with a H.O.F. QB and was a star again. Syd Rice had one good year with a H.O.F. Qb that is the only thing that will win these day’s OFFENSE! DEFENSE is overrated because all the good teams can score with everyone especially the number one seeds!
Agree that defense I overrated
That’s why we need to draft offense with our early pick. But our potential to be a top D is there with Allen and Williams. A good combo of 3-5 quality draft picks and 2-4 free agents and we can be right back in the thick of the NFC North.
by Vikefandc on Jan 4, 2012 8:13 PM CST via mobile reply actions
Jeff Davidson OL Coach stays
As the posters above stated he had a lot to overcome with the group he was left with. He has done an amazing job everywhere he has been and he just needs more time and talent for us to see the results. I mean come on we had an average OG playing LT for us and we expect better results? Cannot put all the blame on him for that. There was a great article about Love and Fusco and how he is teaching and developing them. If I could find it I would post a link. He is doing things the right way, preparing them for both success and how to handle adversity, and how to make in game adjustments in the flow of a game so when they do step on the field they’ll be ready for the long term. We get to draft Kalil and this will be the most improved unit on our team next year. I said it here first, you can take that to the bank.
Building a foundation
I like your optimism! I agree about Kalil, Fusco, and Love and I like Sully now. I thought he had a very nice game against the Bears. I feel like the O Line can set the tone for the whole team in terms of building an identity. If you don’t have a solid line, nothing works.
by Torstein on Jan 4, 2012 9:13 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
His status
as a first year coach may indeed save his job. You’re right that he had next to nothing to work with. If we accept Sully’s improvement as a sign of what he can do, I’ll reverse opinion on him. I was still aggravated we didn’t see some of the rookies line up, but then again, as always, I’m sure the coaches know a lot more than I do on such matters.
If we do draft Kalil (which we damn well better unless St. Louis does so first), and he gets another chance, we’ll have to see what happens then. That will immediately be a HUGE upgrade to our line. If we don’t get immediately better off of that, then I will revert to my ‘off with his head’! Analysis.
261 Daily Norseman readers and counting say I am a genius... the masses have spoke!
...and those who voted 'moron' were secretly Packer trolls.
Follow @KJSegall
ALL of the mock drafts i saw…and i mean ALL have blackmon going 2nd overall, or the rams trading the pick so someone can grab RG3. Which would leave Kalil to us, and all those mocks had us taking him. now, its just a mock draft, so who knows what will actually happen, but i think we have an excellent chance to take him.
I think Singletary is gone
Tom Pelissero has reported he didn’t have much focus on his job this year:
Concerns about Singletary’s strategic acumen followed him to Minnesota, and his approach to preparation has raised red flags. According to two sources, Singletary has left assistant Jeff Imamura in charge of some position meetings, skipped all of the Vikings’ meetings the night before last month’s game at Detroit to attend a wedding and has occupied himself much of the season with side projects instead of the next opponent.
If that is actually the case, get rid of him
Well, that's a major letdown.
Not necessarily in terms of him per se, but more his relationship with Frazier, and how much Frazier essentially gave him when he came aboard. Amounts to betrayal IMO. Well, whatever. I take Frazier as the kinda guy who, faced with that kind of a situation, wouldn’t let friendship cloud his judgement.
261 Daily Norseman readers and counting say I am a genius... the masses have spoke!
...and those who voted 'moron' were secretly Packer trolls.
Follow @KJSegall
I've been around a few CEO's and high-end managers who were very good...
None that I know of would let a guy phone it in… it would be dealt with the first time it happened and the guy wouldn’t get a paycheck after the second time…
Hopefully Frazier will, in the future, be able to take charge of his defensive coach/mutinies, offensive coach/quarterback controversy/unworkable trick plays, and work with Spielman on getting some protection for his quarterback and someone for him to throw to.
by liveforadrenaline on Jan 5, 2012 2:09 PM CST up reply actions
Im thinking
We wont see drastic or many changes, Pagac could even be safe. (Does not mean I agree) this week we have seen teams literly clean house from GM’s on down.
Here at home what we do know for fact is, someone said, “Ok we have some real issues
whats a good start to the of repair?” They finaly go with a GM. And now its cricketts.
I could be way out but I think with naming the GM the Ziggies prolly had a do and dont wish list and Speilman obviously nodded correctly. Going on …..Im thinking Spileman is calling all in as far as coaching and giving what he got..a fair shake. For some who nod and are up to the task they will stay. Some may stay and ride the pass that sais we didnt have crap to work with. I know I can get long but Im not that skilled to post my own subject and stay focused but this is the thing I see.. on other subjects like the QB stuff people at the start of the season here were saying 10 and 6, 8 and 8. When honestly we didnt really change much as far players. fFrom there we brought in a new staff so forth.
I just dont get how people seen that. Now already I have seen some psots saying we will contend by next year or at least go 8and 8. Now I get you wanna be optimistic and all but there is a thing called reality. This year was not really a melt down as it was simply going to be how could it not with the little change? So I guess I dont see huge coaching changes ..maybe 2-3 most on the D side of the ball.
@}-----You've been Touched-----{@
Here's my (hopeful) take on the Spielman 'hiring'/ promotion.
The roster moves under the ToA have been hot and cold. Jared Allen- rockstar. Randy Moss- whoops. Etc., etc., we don’t need the full list. Hopefully- and again this is optimistic- Spielman was the force behind the majority of the positive moves, and not so much for the negative ones. For example, the McNabb debacle was Frazier’s idea- Speilman wanted Bulger. Of course, that’s pretty much the only one we know the dynamics of; most of the others are shrouded in mystery, but hopefully the FO (especially the Wilfs) are well aware. If indeed I’m right, then this would be quite the positive move.
261 Daily Norseman readers and counting say I am a genius... the masses have spoke!
...and those who voted 'moron' were secretly Packer trolls.
Follow @KJSegall
S & C Coach
I give him a pass. Like you said the team looked gassed in the beginning of the season. With no off season conditioning I blame that mostly on the players themselves for not being in game condition more than I do the coach.
On the whole strength and conditioning subject...
Because of the lockout, it was the PLAYERS responsibility to stay in shape during the offseason, the S&C coach couldn’t talk to him. I think he stays.
by christian220896 on Jan 5, 2012 11:02 AM CST reply actions
And by him
I’m talking about the 400+ lb McKinnie at the start of training camp.
by christian220896 on Jan 5, 2012 11:03 AM CST up reply actions
What are they going to do when McKinnie Jr. (Loadholt)
Comes in one of these years over 400? ;)
by liveforadrenaline on Jan 5, 2012 12:18 PM CST up reply actions
Send him to the Ravens for nothing
where he becomes a superstar.
261 Daily Norseman readers and counting say I am a genius... the masses have spoke!
...and those who voted 'moron' were secretly Packer trolls.
Follow @KJSegall
You and VikesFanInTulsa
could well be right. The ‘gas-outs’ did seem to decrease as the season went on.
261 Daily Norseman readers and counting say I am a genius... the masses have spoke!
...and those who voted 'moron' were secretly Packer trolls.
Follow @KJSegall
Frazier was on the Bears when they won the SB
He got to play with the “Fridge” who was but a rookie, but made a huge impact… ha ha!
I remember Ditka was always hot and bothered by Perry’s conditioning but Perry was 6 inches shorter than McKinnie and weighed the same…
by liveforadrenaline on Jan 5, 2012 3:46 PM CST up reply actions
Can the Vikings get a "Tackling and Blocking' Coach?
Is there such a thing?
Can such a thing be found?!?!
Please?!
Ah, ah,
We come from the land of the ice and snow,
From the midnight sun where the hot springs blow.
The hammer of the gods will drive our ships to new lands,
To fight the horde, singing and crying: Valhalla, I am coming!
SKOL!
We were horrendous this year
If there were such a statistic as “missed tackles” we would have set another team record…
by liveforadrenaline on Jan 5, 2012 4:08 PM CST up reply actions
Or tackles for yards gained.
But would that be considered broken tackles?
by christian220896 on Jan 5, 2012 8:41 PM CST up reply actions
what do you mean
attempting to push someone out of bounds only to have them move their legs and get past you for another 5-10 yrds isn’t tackling? :)
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recommended FanPosts
Recent FanPosts
In Association With
Shutdown Corner - NFL - Yahoo! Sports
- Former high-school star Brian Banks does serious time on trumped-up charge, now hopes for an NFL shot
- Former ‘idiot kicker’ Mike Vanderjagt in trouble after accosting junior-high heckler
- Adrian Peterson blows teammates away in footraces; appears to be on the mend
- UPDATE: Charlie Sheen didn’t buy Lawrence Taylor’s Super Bowl ring
- Alex Smith gets blown up by Jon Beason over Cam Newton comments
