A look at the 2012 Minnesota Vikings cap situation
by DJSkillz on Jan 5, 2012 3:07 PM CST
Email
PrintWell, our season is officially over. This team is 3-13 and has holes all over the place. But in order to fill those holes, beyond the draft, the team needs money. So let's take a look at the 2012 Minnesota Vikings cap situation, using Tom Pelissero's latest as a guide: http://www.1500espn.com/sportswire/Whos_under_contract_whos_not_as_Vikings_turn_the_page_to_2012010412
More after the jump...
First, the following Vikings are FA's heading into this offseason:
- Unrestricted FA's: S Husain Abdullah, LB Xavier Adibi, WR Devin Aromashodu, WR Greg Camarillo, NT Fred Evans, DT Letroy Guion, MLB EJ Henderson, OLB Erin Henderson, S Tyrell Johnson, LS Matt Katula, TE Jimmy Kleinsasser (retired), OL Scott Kooistra, S Jarrad Page, QB Sage Rosenfels, CB Benny Sapp, TE Visanthe Shiancoe
- Restricted FA's: HB Lorenzo Booker, LB Kenny Onatolu
- Exclusive rights free agent: OL Patrick Brown
I'd guess only 4-5 of the above will be retained in 2012, with Evans, Guion, Erin Henderson, Sage Rosenfels, Benny Sapp, Visanthe Shiancoe, and Patrick Brown as likely candidates. But we'll make no assumptions on any of the above to begin this exercise. So, we are left with the following virtual roster "locks" for 2012 PRIOR TO ANY POTENTIAL CUTS:
Offense:
- QB; Christian Ponder ($837K), Joe Webb ($490K)
- RB: Adrian Peterson ($8M), Toby Gerhart ($490K), Caleb King ($390K)
- FB: Ryan D'Imperio ($465K)
- TE: Kyle Rudolph ($585K), Allen Reisner ($465K), Mickey Shuler ($540K)
- WR: Percy Harvin ($915K), Michael Jenkins ($2.5M), Stephen Burton ($465K), Emmanuel Arceneaux ($465K)
- OL: John Sullivan ($3M), Charlie Johnson ($2.95M), Steve Hutchinson ($6.95M), Phil Loadholt ($565K), Anthony Herrera ($2.65M), Joe Berger ($1M), Chris DeGeare ($465K), Demarcus Love ($465K), Brandon Fusco ($465K)
- Total offense: $35.117M
Special Teams:
- K Ryan Longwell ($1.75M), P Chris Kluwe ($1.3M), LS Cullen Loeffler ($840K)
- Total Special Teams: $3.89M
Defense:
- DB: Asher Allen ($565K), Jamarca Sanford ($565K), Chris Cook ($490K), Eric Frampton ($850K), Antoine Winfield ($3M), Brandon Burton ($465K), Cedric Griffin ($4.1M), Mistral Raymond ($465K), Marcus Sherels ($415K)
- LB: Chad Greenway ($5.9M), Jasper Brinkley ($565K), Larry Dean ($465K), Tyrone McKenzie ($465K)
- DL: Jared Allen ($11.62M), Kevin Williams ($7M), Brian Robison ($726K), Everson Griffen ($490K), Remi Ayodele ($2.2M), Christian Ballard ($465K), D'Aundre Reed ($465K)
- Total defense: $41.276M
- Total team: $80.283M
- Practice Squad: Andrew Sendejo ($540K), Reggie Jones ($390K), Jordan Todman ($465K), Kris Adams ($390K), Kerry Taylor ($390K), Butch Lewis ($390K)
- Total practice squad: $2.565M
- Total allocation: $82.848M
None of the above figures factor in bonuses, and while specific information is elusive in relating to bonuses and incentives, I'd estimate there are about $10M more to be allocated in bonuses in 2012. So we're left with a total team allocation of $92.848M. The NFL Salary cap in 2012 should be around $125M. That leaves $32.152M to play with.
I would say it would be reasonable to allocate roughly $8M to 2012 draft picks and undrafted FA's, leaving us with $24.152M. What I'd do with the rest:
Cap casualties/cuts:
- Steve Hutchinson (retire); $6.95M saved This seems like a likely scenario anyway with his injuries this year.
- Anthony Herrera (cut): $2.65M saved. Too many injuries.
- Cedric Griffin (cut); $4.1M saved Griffin was once a very nice DB for us, but he and Frazier clearly aren't on the same page anymore, and this is way too much money to pay him.
- Antoine Winfield (cut); $3M saved Like Hutchinson and Griffin, he's been a nice player for us in the past, but we can't afford him with his injury history at this point.
So we're left with roughly $40.852M to spend in Free Agency. I'd target the following players:
- OL: Sign Carl Nicks, OG-Saints, to a 7 year, $60M contract, paying him around $9M in 2012. This is my big splash. He's essentially a younger, dominant replacement for Steve Hutchinson
- WR: Sign Laurent Robinson, Cowboys, to a 4 year, $16M contract, paying him around $4M in 2012. Young guy wtih immense talent coming into his prime. The Cowboys likely can't afford to pay him, Miles Austin, and Dez Bryant big money.
- WR: Sign Robert Meachem, Saints, to a 4 year, $20M contract, paying him around $5M in 2012. Like Robinson, young and coming into his prime, and he's a big target that this offense could use.
- CB: Sign Brandon Carr, Chiefs, to a 5 year, $22M contract, paying him around $5M in 2012. Young, coming off his rookie contract. Won't break the bank.
- S: Sign Tyvon Branch, Raiders, to a 4 year, $16M contract, paying him around $5M in 2012. Another young guy, coming off his rookie contract. Won't break the bank.
- TE: Sign John Carlson, Seahawks, to a 3 year, $9M contract, paying him around $3M in 2012. Potential to be a nice combo with Rudolph.
- Our own FA's: re-sign Rosenfels ($1M), Sapp ($1M), Erin Henderson ($2M), Guion ($1M), and Evans ($1M).
- Total 2012 allocation from above: $37M, coming in about $4M under the projected cap.
Draft:
- Trade back in 1st rd with Cleveland; acquire #4 pick and #37 (their 2nd rder):
- #4-Matt Kalil. If he is gone, then I'd trade down again and make sure I get Martin. Kalil or Martin and Nicks would make for a devastating left side of the line for a long time, and you could shift Johnson to RG, with improved depth behind the line as well.
- #35-Best CB available
- #37-Best LB available that slips
- #67-Best CB, WR, S or LB available
- #96 (this is my projected compensatory pick for Sidney Rice)-Best CB, WR, S, or LB available; whatever you didn't get at #37 or #67
- 4th rd pick: best rushing DE or DT you can find
- 5th rd pick: project WR, CB, DT, DE, RB, or LB
- 6th rd pick: BPA
- 4 7th rd picks (2 compensatory): BPA
New team:
- QB: Christian Ponder ($837K), Sage Rosenfels ($1M), Joe Webb ($490K)
- RB: Adrian Peterson ($8M), Toby Gerhart ($490K), rookie RB (or King); $465K
- TE: Kyle Rudolph ($585K), John Carlson ($3M), Reisner or Shuler ($500K)
- WR: Robert Meachem ($5M), Laurent Robinson ($4M), Percy Harvin ($915K), Michael Jenkins ($2.5M), rookie ($465K), Stephen Burton ($465K)
- OL: Matt Kalil ($5M), Carl Nicks ($9M), John Sullivan ($3M), Charlie Johnson ($2.95M), Phil Loadholt ($565K), Joe Berger ($1M), Chris DeGeare ($465K), DeMarcus Love ($465K), Brandon Fusco ($465K)
- ST: Ryan Longwell ($1.75M), Chris Kluwe ($1.3M), Cullen Loeffler ($840K)
- DL: Jared Allen ($11.62M), Kevin Williams ($7M), Brian Robison ($726K), Remi Ayodele ($2.2M), Christian Ballard ($465K), Everson Griffen ($490K), D'Aundre Reed ($465K), Letroy Guion ($1M), Fred Evans ($1M)
- LB: Chad Greenway ($5.9M), rookie ($465K), Erin Henderson ($2M), Jasper Brinkley ($565K), Larry Dean ($465K), Tyrone McKenzie or rookie ($500K)
- CB: Brandon Carr ($5M), rookie ($465K), Chris Cook ($490K), Benny Sapp ($1M), Brandon Burton ($465K), Asher Allen ($565K)
- S: Tyvon Branch ($5M), Mistral Raymond ($465K), Jamarca Sanford ($565K), rookie ($465K)
- Total payroll: $104.853M. Tack on $15M in bonuses and another $3M for the practice squad and you get $122.853M.
This FanPost was created by a registered user of The Daily Norseman, and does not necessarily reflect the views of the staff of the site. However, since this is a community, that view is no less important.
147 comments
|
0 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
Hey Man, great write-up!
Only issue I have is with you idea, we have NO LBs (only one capable starter in Greenway) and no depth behind whoever would wind up starting.
You don't think that...
Greenway, Brinkley and Erin Henderson are a decent crew? I mean, Erin has been starting this entire year and has played very well, and Brinkley played well last year when EJ was down.
Well the LB core has struggled mightily this year so I do not know how you can say they played very well.
Where is the depth after them, that is quality depth? there will be an injury there has been every year at the LB position. Who goes in if one of them goes down?
The LB corps* has not struggled that bad.
When you have a weak secondary, you need to put your LB’s in coverage more, which is not what they are best suited for.
And I beg to differ that the LB’s have struggled. Greenway is 3rd in the league in tackles, EJ is 18th in the league as well. Erin has played rather well in the run game. They are just spread thinner due to our horrible pass defense.
thats a very biased number
If you watched the games, you would have noticed that a good portion of the time the Vikings were trailing, meaning that the opposing team was running more, meaning the LBs would get inflated tackle numbers. #commonsense
well we are #30 against the pass
It has been made and pretty much EVERYONE agrees they can not cover anybody. Can’t cover RBs out of the backfield or TEs streaking down the seams. They can tackle all day long but in a passing league coverage is just, if not more, important
Right, which goes back to my first post saying:
When you have a weak secondary, you need to put your LB’s in coverage more, which is not what they are best suited for.
Thanks for making my point.
I agree, but they still struggled at that, we can not vastly upgrade all 4 backfield spots in one season
So we need to get LBs that not only can tackle, but can also cover when asked, which our current set can not do.
I still maintain that our secondary is worse,
If we shore up our secondary, the linebackers will have to cover less ground and will likely perform better as a result.
I agree on that point in theory lol
But I do not think it would hurt to improve out LBs either. EJ has clearly lost a step or twelve and I do not think Erin would start on any other team in the NFL
Upgrading a position never hurts...
I just feel there are more pressing needs and our current group of LB’s are serviceable.
Yes
My first reference was on his article relating to them switching to a 3-4 defense. So that is why I said they had only one viable starter off their LB. They are/should be fine if they were to go with Greenway/Brinkley/Erin H. as a 4-3 LB core. Just worried about who steps up if one goes down
That's if Erin resigns
Maybe there is an upgrade out there since he is a UFA and might want more money now that he has been a starter this year.
by VikesFanInTulsa on Jan 6, 2012 2:34 PM CST up reply actions
True
I was just talking about who we have on our team based on last year. There are too many unknowns to plan out FA/draft. I say come back to this after we see who has been drafted/signed. One thing is for sure, if they want to improve it will be a busy/exciting offseason
Just so you don't get berated by Service members in the future...
It is “Corps”, Not “Core”… When referring to LB Corps.
He might get beat up by the "Peace Corps" goons.
You don't tug on Superman's cape
You don't spit into the wind
You don't pull the mask of the Spiderman
And you don't trash talk about him
one problem
Chris Cook will not be on this team
"Never take your eyes off of your opponent…even when you bow."
very possible...
in that alternative, insert a top 4 rd rookie in his spot.
Why would you want a guy on your team like that anyway?
"Never take your eyes off of your opponent…even when you bow."
Well, it's not that I necessarily want him on our team if he did what he is alleged to have done.
It’s that I don’t want him on another team, turning things around and becoming a stud at CB for some other team. Because if we let him go, he will not last on the open market. Another team will snap him up quickly.
Now, if he truly did what he is charged with, and was really trying to kill this girl, then I could care less if he is on another team. I would not want him back.
But we all know there is two sides to every story, and the ONLY reason I can see Frazier keeping him on the roster and paying him is if there is a chance that this whole thing was blown out of proportion.
Very nice work
Hadn’t thought about Robinson. He came on strong at season’s end. The only thing I don’t like is the LBs. Cant improve every postion I guess.
"At this point, what we got to lose, right? So we might as well throw caution to the wind and hit people in the face."
--Vikings DE Jared Allen
right...
i would have loved to improve there too, though a rookie at #37 probably figures to be pretty good. obviously this team would have some more needs in 2013, but i tried to be as bold as possible while still being realistic.
and really, don’t get too attached to actual names in this; it was mainly an exercise to show where we’re at cap-wise and what else we can do.
Lavante David LB at #37 would help greatly with the LB core.
Him, Greenway, and Brinkley might actually be a pretty solid LB core if both the Hendersons’ do not come back
I love these posts you've been doing.
Thoughtful. Detailed. Informative.
It would be great if things played out this way. We’d be like the 2008 Vikings. Lots of talent but with a question mark at QB.
What is the acceptable spending range for the Vikings? What do they have to spend to meet the minimum, and when do we find out what the actual cap is for 2012?
"Man invented language to satisfy his deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
Great writeup
Seems to be a weak free-agent year, but you’ve outlined some good possibilities…
by liveforadrenaline on Jan 5, 2012 4:32 PM CST reply actions
I tried to stay young...
I think in FA I like the general Spielman approach; you get guys in their prime years coming off their rookie contracts. that’s the best way to get maximum value of players is to get them in their prime years. and this team needs to be a team built for sustained success, not 1-2 year runs.
I like it.
That O-line looks quite strong.
One very minor detail I would have woul be to sign D. Aromashadu instead of another FA signing. I thought he stepped up and played well when called upon this year.
Other than that, it seems like a very good, reasonable and realistic 2012 Vikings team.
not bad either...
We don’t know the exact details of what cap hits would be for cutting guys, but if we signed 2 FA WR’s (or signed one and drafted one) I’d probably look at cutting Jenkins and keeping Aromashodu for less. I figured this was more realistic though with Musgrave in the fold (and his history with Jenkins).
Keep Winfield in the Nickel
He’s a lot cheaper as a Nickel DB, and I think he still has another 1-2 years of production left. I don’t like him as our starting CB anymore, and I’m not convinced he’d do well at safety, but he’s a natural fit for the Nickel, and his contract is setup for him to make a lot less in that scenario anyway. I have a feeling they keep Winfield, unless they get really lucky in free agency and the draft.
Ponder. Peterson. Percy. Purple Perfection.
Agree and Winfield 's salary has already gone down from 7 to 3 mil
We need to keep him at least one more year.
maybe so....
I just am not sure he’ll play more than 5-6 games at this point in his career given his injuries of late. If we could restructure or make it heavily incentive-laden I’d like to keep him around too. Something like $1.5M guaranteed but incentive up to as much as $7M based on playing time/production.
Plus he has stated he want to just play the nickel through the rest of his contract and retire as a viking
I think that that is a great idea for him actually
Not bad
I would not keep Evans at all. Ayodele could be gone too as he was a major disappointment. Guion may or may not be back. Basically the DT position needs to get a major upgrade especially when you consider KWill will be 32 to start next season.
Also, I think Carr and Branch will get more than what you are offering. You may have to up that amount.
I like Pierre Garcon a little better than Robinson. Garcon has been more productive and even did it this year with the QBs in Indy.
I'm with you here ,we need to address DT at some point
And Evans and Ayodele both need to go. I’d keep Guion, he is a young and improving player who hasn’t hit his ceiling yet, what that is we still don’t know.
I like Guion a lot too...
which is why I’m keeping him.
And again, we can’t fix all the holes on this team in one year. I guess I look at the DL as an overall position of strength (#1 in sacks this past year) so I think we can wait a year on that position. But next year we should be looking at both DE and DT IMO because Allen is going to get old fast probably. And honestly, as much as I love him, with a rebuild, if somebody offers a bounty for Allen I’d probably bite.
"Because Allen is going to get old fast probably"
What evidence do you have to support this? That is is almost 30 and just had one of the best seasons a DE has EVER had EVER? He has one of the best work ethics of any player in the NFL, I see him as a 8-10 sack player for at least another 4-6 years.
DJ- Look at Chris Gates atricle about the all time sack leaders
The true greats actually got BETTER after 30 and had between 5-7 years of very good (8-10 sacks/year) of productivity.
could be...
and i think he’ll be productive for at least 2-3 more years personally. but after that i see a dropoff. and i think we’re 2-3 years away from true superbowl contention anyway.
that’s my point.
allen’s probably at his absolute high value right now, so if someone offers a ton, i’d listen.
I would listen to
but there is still enough time to build a Def around him as we have a player in Griffin who can step into that role after he drops off anyway.
The thing with the DT position is the Vikings are getting worse vs the run
I would find a way to get Paul Soliai 6-4 355 or Aubrayo Franklin 6-1 317 into you free agent list. I like Soliai better though.
Ideally, in my dream world, I would sign Calais Campbell in free agency. He is playing very well and is only 25.
Nice
I like Carlson and Robinson, but I don’t know if we could sign them and Nicks. But great job overall.
by PurplePrideforLife! on Jan 5, 2012 8:22 PM CST reply actions
He just showed how we could. We would have 42 Mil in cap space
Also, once we get one big name person to come here, it becomes easier to get others to follow because they can see that you are trying to put out a much better team.
and that was the main point of this post...
my vision was meant to be secondary; the main point is to show just how much flexibility we can have this year.
What about Dwayne Bowe???
I think he is a stud WR but is he worth stud WR money?
Straight Cash Homey
by MOSScomeBACK2vikes on Jan 5, 2012 8:42 PM CST reply actions
I think he'll get a ton of money...
more like $10M a year. And I’m also not sure KC lets him go. So I tried to stay more reasonable and target young guys on the rise that won’t break the bank. That’s my general rule in FA anyway. The one huge splash is Nicks, as he’s at a glaring position of need and I don’t think NO can afford to keep him. We shall see.
yup...
again, the point of this wasn’t for specific players, but more for the money that we have and the TYPE of moves we need to be making. For instance, based on positional scarcity/draft position, etc. I’d look for something like:
FA: OL, 2 young WR’s, 1 young S, 1 young CB, TE
Draft: OL, LB, CB, depth at other spots.
Anyone think they offer Harvin an extention soon?
by Dodger48 on Jan 5, 2012 9:12 PM CST via mobile reply actions
We absolutely should...
and in my scenario above we do have around $4M left to play with for 2012 that we could allocate towards just that.
Question
Just wondering do you guys really believe Carl Nicks, Robert Meachem, and Laurnet Robinson would come play with a Christan Ponder led offense. Because I dont see why they would.
Why would Rice sign that big contract to play with TJack?
Oh that’s right because it’s a BIG $$$ contract! Robinson and Meachem don’t want to be third fiddle anymore and Nicks wants to be paid he already has his ring. So why not?
exactly...
at the end of the day it’s almost always who offers the most.
Rice was a differnt situation
Already had a realtionship with T jack from years of playing on same team… and Obviously already knowing the Offense Bevell would run in Seattle.. on top of the big pay day. But we shall see I can’t see these guys coming here with a 2nd year QB. But I hope im wrong
I'd go with you are wrong
the Jets have signed many big name WRs with MARK SANCHEZ, who is just horrible. The Ravens have gotten plenty of new WRs since Flacco came in as a rookie. Most players let money talk and will only look at the QB situation if the numbers (financially) are the same. WHY would teams come here? well for one we have RBs who demand 8-9 in the box, so there will always be single coverage on then. I bet most WRs would like to not get doubled every play.
The Jets play in the greatest city in the world??
Baltimore traded for Anquan Boldin and Lee Evans not free agent signings??
Minnesota isn’t a sexy place for pro athletes to come play I think we can all agree with that. No sure-fire QB, Weaher, and downtown night life. I just cant see it not right now.
They are only here for maybe 6 months a year, and during that time they spend a lot of it on the road
Money talks above all else. Trust me, if they make any offers to big name free agents and throw a TON of cash their way, they will come, they all do
There is no way I would sign with NY/NJ
The taxes would be enough to NOT sign there.
by VikesFanInTulsa on Jan 6, 2012 1:50 PM CST up reply actions
Also, the area is just gross
bad weather, lots of crime, too many people. yuck. Plus, it seems that many a viking player has notoriously enjoyed the nightlife here in MN
CTIANDREW raises a good point and one that has me worried
I think that the Vikings should be very aggressive in signing two free agents right off the bat.
I would target Michael Griffin FS and Brandon Carr CB or Richard Marshall CB. All do well in the passes defended category. The Vikings will have to overpay for these guys.
Also, they should try to land one WR like Pierre Garcon, Steve Johnson, Robinson, or Meachum.
Once you sign a few guys then others will see that you are already getting better and w=could possibly want to come here to be a part of it.
I like that. Those are positions that I would love to see veterans signed
as opposed to draft picks who need to develop at the position (and might not pan out). But my faith in the “new front office” is not that high at this point, so I’m not holding my breath.
You don't tug on Superman's cape
You don't spit into the wind
You don't pull the mask of the Spiderman
And you don't trash talk about him
And I didn't mention it in the above...
but if we can find the right defensive coordinator I’d ideally switch to the 3-4. I don’t get why people are so concerned about that switch re: Jared Allen. He’d fit in just fine in a 3-4 and could be used very similarly to how he’s used now. A 3-4 gives you options, and most of our personnel would excel there.
Ayodele is an ideal 3-4 NT. Kevin Williams, Ballard, Guion, Robison all fit in well as 3-4 DE’s. Robison could also play LB in the 3-4. Allen could be very effective as a LB/DE in a 3-4, and Greenway/Brinkley/Griffen/Erin Henderson are all better suited to that scheme as well. I’d be fully in favor of that switch, personally.
We're concerned because
Jared Allen has come out and publicly said he doesn’t want to play in a 3-4. I think that’s enough for me.
Ponder. Peterson. Percy. Purple Perfection.
I guess...
but I think a good coordinator can smooth that over (ie Wade Phillips re: Mario Williams). And Jared’s a team guy. I think he’ll be pleasantly surprised at how effective he can be in it.
Also, it’s shortsighted to me to let one player (as good as Allen is) stand in the way of a scheme that benefits most of your team. And heck, Allen is 30 years old; he doesn’t have THAT much left in the tank anyway. If he absolutely refuses (I doubt it) then you can deal him for a ton of talent and have a scheme that maximizes 6-7 other guys along the front 7.
It doesn't benefit most of the team
Its just a different system. That our guys haven’t played in.
Most of your posts are right on,
but it is comments like that that lead me to believe sometimes you struggle to know what your talking about defensively. When you draft guys for decades to play in a 4-3, that are 4-3 players, you can not just say hey guys we are gonna switch to a 3-4 and be effective. GB made the switch because they had the personnel to do it (big DT,DE’s and a surplus of LB talent that could go out there and fill the 3-4 system) Oh and they also had one of the top backfields then too. We do not have the CBs to play man coverage, which is what they do in a 3-4. We do not have the LB talent or depth to trot out 4 LBs at a time, two in which need to be cover LBs. I do think Allen could excel as an OLB pass rushing specialist, but that is all he would be.
You don't have to play man in the 3-4
But I agree with you about not switching. And that’s coming from a guy who runs the 3-4 as a high school coach. My biggest concerns would be with Jared Allen and the lack of a NT. I think you could turn him into your rush linebacker (he already plays a 9 technique most of the time) but he’s already said that he wouldn’t look forward to the change, so we’d have to trade him most likely. And we absolutely don’t have anything even close to resembling an adequate zero technique on our squad. Remi sucks.
"At this point, what we got to lose, right? So we might as well throw caution to the wind and hit people in the face."
--Vikings DE Jared Allen
not understand my ass...
i understand perfectly well. just because i don’t agree with you doesn’t mean I “don’t understand”. get off your high horse.
i agree we need to upgrade at DT; this team is more than 1 year away. but it would be a better overall fit for us IMO. also, it’s not THAT complicated. look at houston as exhibit A.
Ya you should have replied to viking 28. It's all good
Two things Houston has that we dont are linebackers and a 3-4 guy in Phillips.
"At this point, what we got to lose, right? So we might as well throw caution to the wind and hit people in the face."
--Vikings DE Jared Allen
Also, they have pretty good corners.
What we are missing:
1. NT, anyone who thinks we have somone on the roster to fill this spot does not know much about the 3-4.
2. LBs that can cover, as shown by GB there is usually one pass rush specialist (mathews) and the rest need to be able to cover a good portion of the time.
3. CBs that can cover. We have none!
4. Safetys that can cover, see pt 3
Actually the only thing we do have would be a surplus of big guys to play the 3-4 DE spots, Like Kwill, Guion and Ballard. But KWill would not play 3-4 DE because they do not get sacks, they are there to just clog up the lanes so the OLBs can rush the edges
i did...
but it dropped my post below. apologies if you thought it was intended for you; it wasn’t.
as for houston, i disagree. i think we have 3-4 good linebackers in a 3-4 scheme in greenway/griffen/robison/henderson/brinkley. coordinator is obviously a must, as i’ve said. i’d target crennel.
So I could see Greenway and Brinkley as inside linebackers. Griffen would probably only excel at rush linebacker, which would mean he wouldn’t play because that would be Jared Allen’s spot. Robison would be a casualty because he is not big enough to play DE in a 3-4 and I doubt he would be the coverage LB in a 3-4, so then he would be 3rd behind Allen and griffen at rush. Henderson the younger could play the OLB opposite JA, but Henderson just isn’t that talented to begin with IMO so I doubt he will improve in a new scheme.
In any case we have no one who can play the Zero technique.
"At this point, what we got to lose, right? So we might as well throw caution to the wind and hit people in the face."
--Vikings DE Jared Allen
disagree on henderson and robison...
i think robison is every bit as athletic as griffen and allen, if not moreso. he was the most athletic DE in his whole draft.
and i think erin henderson has turned into a nice player that would be even better in the 3-4.
we just disagree on our personnel i guess.
Robison
has never played LB i believe, so he would be put into place as the rushing LB, but we already have one in Allen, and another in Griffin. So which one of the 3 gets dumped? We can not rush 3 LBs every play? How do we know Robison can cover, or griffin can cover or Allen can cover? that is the issue. Our personnel MAY be good enough, but it is more than likely they are not. As they have no experience or anything that shows otherwise
i just think they can...
and as i note below, i prefer a heavy rotation to keep guys fresh anyway. so that’s a plus to me, not a minus.
I beg to difer
Griffen and Allen have both been seen in coverage. Griffen as a LB and Allen in zone blitz situations and this is without much coaching. If we went to the 3-4 they both would get more coaching on coverage skills. Hell it seems to me with them playing the D line they both have been around the tackle downfield so I would think both could play OSLB in the 3-4 opposite of each other.
I would see the front 7 with Williams and Ballard as DEs. Allen and Griffen as OSLBs. Greenway and Brinkley of Erin Henderson as ISLBs. This leaves the NT who I agree we don’t have on the roster. I was looking at WalterFootball mocks today and saw Charlie Campbell’s mock having us take Dontari Poe DT from Memphis in the 2nd round. They list him at 6-5 350lbs. This would probably fill this need which would just leave the secondary STILL.
by VikesFanInTulsa on Jan 6, 2012 1:21 PM CST up reply actions
I agree. But When Allen drops back as a DE it is unexpected
so the QB is not looking at it. Wheres in a 3-4 it will be expected he should drop back at times. We have not seen him cover WRs, only RBs out of the backfield and a TE. Is he fast enough to run all the way downfield to catch a Percy Harvin type slot guy? I do not know. My problem is that, while I agree and some personnel could do very well in a 3-4, there are just to many unknowns that could play out. We already now we have THE TOP Dline in the NFL as it stand right now, and out D would be much much improved with better CB and S play, both of which need to be upgraded anyway. So why not keep the front 7 where it is, and still dominant and just fix the backfield issues?
Houston had those same unknowns
And it worked out pretty good for them #1 defense for much of the year if not all of it. Of course they do have the secondary that helped make that adjustment easier, but if I remember correct a lot of people had the same reservations with Mario Williams and he did ok until the injury. It would be something they could mix in in the preseason and who knows if it works we could run both 3-4 and 4-3 to keep teams off guard as long as we are looking at the possibility of this working with personnel turnover.
by VikesFanInTulsa on Jan 6, 2012 1:33 PM CST up reply actions
Yea. but they had better personnel for it
Also, a great DC in wade Philps and and offense that you could guarantee to move the chains and make up for any defensive missteps. A great QB, A great RB, and arguable the best WR in the league. We dont have any of that and we do not know ho well AD will come back from that injury.
Change is good in the NFl
I think the Tampa-2 or at least our version of it is yesterdays news and teams know how to beat it on a regular basis. Our back 4 are only part of the problem IMO. The zones are so large that QBs are picking them apart.
Personally I’d rather see them go to more of a pressure man scheme with lots of blitzing. I get sick of seeing the defense out there for 35-40 mins a game giving up points and wearing out so if the game is close they give up the points at the end anyhow. I say play aggressive man, get some picks, or get up the occasional big play and let our offense wear out the opposing teams defense. Just a thought since what we’re doing now doesn’t seem to be working very well.
by VikesFanInTulsa on Jan 6, 2012 1:41 PM CST up reply actions
dropping into coverage once every few games as part of a zone blitz
Is one thing. Being asked to drop into coverage regularly and actually cover WR’s and TE’s is another.
"At this point, what we got to lose, right? So we might as well throw caution to the wind and hit people in the face."
--Vikings DE Jared Allen
again, he doesn't have to play a lot of coverage...
the Cowboys don’t have DeMarcus Ware dropping into coverage all that often.
My comment was not limited to JA
It applies to Everson and BRob as well.
"At this point, what we got to lose, right? So we might as well throw caution to the wind and hit people in the face."
--Vikings DE Jared Allen
NM
I think Allen could do very well in a 3-4. Similar to DeMarcus Ware. Ware is not that good in coverage and spends most of his time getting after the QB. He had 19.5 sacks this year. It is not a difficult switch at all for Allen.
If he wants that 11.68 mil in 2012 and 14.2 mil in 2013 then he will play wherever they want him to play. And play it well.
I do not see switching to a 3-4 defense affecting Allen’s ability to get after the passer one bit. And it may allow the Vikings to get Brinkley and Griffen on the field.
Did I say he wouldn't do well in a 3-4?
All I wrote is that he has already said he doesn’t want to switch.
"At this point, what we got to lose, right? So we might as well throw caution to the wind and hit people in the face."
--Vikings DE Jared Allen
I do not seem him pouting and pulling a Haynesworth if they switch
But he just might not be able to do it as well. Coming out of a 3 pt stance and playing stand up are two totally different things, and a lot of player that were great DEs (i.e. Kampan) could not do the 3-4 OLB position.
Well looking at a few of your comments about the defense I might disagree
1. you are guaranteeing Allen will get old fast, which is just ridiculous. He is all technique and intelligence, those types of DEs traditionally age very very well and play 7-10 years past 30 (that give him at least 8 more years)
2. You think with our current coaching staff, who have ALWAYS run a 4-3 scheme, even with we brought in a 3-4 DC, that the rest of the coaching staff would understand the transition.
3. You think it would be easy for our current personnel to transition to positions they have never played in their entire lives. The only way this could be done would be to blow up our entire D. Trade Allen and Kwill, and start completely over. We would need at least 8 new starters on D for a 3-4 to work.
You def have great ideas about pretty much everything, I think you just vastly overestimate the vikes ability to run/switch to a 3-4 D with ease.
no i'm not...
you’re way off base.
1) I’m not GUARANTEEING anything re: allen. but the odds are against him in 2-3 years. he’s probably at his high value point right now.
2) i’ve flat-out said we’d need a new DC, which we are looking at anyway. Crennel would be my choice.
3) It’s not that difficult to switch personnel, especially switching most of our personnel to a system that fits their strengths better (like our LB’s). again, look at houston. they seemed to “transition” pretty damn well in just 1 year.
Thanks for the compliment. I don’t mean to get testy about this. I just took offense. I’ve thought about this a lot. We just don’t agree on it.
Yea, Probably could have worded that original post a little better, my bad, I just write, dont give to much thought as the fingers flow faster than brain most of the time
If you look at eh great DEs, which you must admit Allen is one of them, They have all aged very very well. Please read Chris article on the home page he just wrote, it should help show you what I am talking about. We def do need a new DC, and if they switch to a 3-4 it could be done in a couple years, but we need to clean house on everyone. Houston had a great Dline already, great cover corners, good safety play, all things we do not have.
no worries, i'm similar, sorry if i offended.
i just disagree on the personnel. i really think most of our guys work even better in a 3-4, but we’ll see.
i should also say that i’m usually in favor of a heavy rotation of front 7 players (think NY Giants) so if we have 9-10 guys that work but not full-time that’s a good thing to me, not a bad thing. to me we have a good crew in KW, Allen, Guion, Griffen, Brinkley, Erin, Greenway, Robison, Ayodele. Add 1-2 more guys and that’s a solid core IMO.
Lets write this out, shall we, fill in/edit if i make mistakes por favor
NT: Who on our current roster could fill this spot, as all personnel failed at the 3 Tech DT this year?
DE: Ballard/Guion/Kwill. This would be OK if Kwill was willing to play it and Ballard improves this offseason.
OLB: Allen, Robison, Er.Henderson, Griffen (my problem is that none of these guys have been asked to cover on a regular basis and when they have (i.e. Henderson) they have not excelled. We can not rush both OLBs all the time. I do think Allen and Griffin would excel at rushing the edges if they were willing to work at it.
ILB: Greenway/Brinkley/who else (I think Greenway should be moved to ILB regardless of wether or not we are in a 4-3 or 3-4. He is a tackling machine, but has no range/cover skill. He would be best suited as a run stopping ILB. Brinkley is the same as Greenway, great tackler, not so good in coverage. Only problem is that at least one of them will need to cover on passing plays.
CB: Need all new CBs either way I suppose. I think Winfield could excel in a position like Charles Woodson as a blitzing Nickel CB. but he can not cover #1 or #2 Wrs anymore. Cook may be gone, at least suspended. All other CBs can not take on the role of covering #1 or #2 WRs in the NFL.
S: atrocious, need new ones either way
Greenway Inside...
I would agree if we didn’t run the tampa-2. I would hate to see Greenway trying to drop into that deep middle coverage. TEs would light us up on fly patterns.
by VikesFanInTulsa on Jan 6, 2012 1:27 PM CST up reply actions
But we expect him to be able to cover those now as an OLB
in a 4-3, if the OLB is not rushing the passer he should be responsible for the TE seam play anyway. I would prefer Greenway to be the MLB as he would then call the plays and would be able to back up the tackles on run plays, which is where he excels. That is if they do not bring back EJ anyway
i'm still amazed that greenway hasn't been better in coverage...
his combine drill for coverage was ridiculous. announcers gushing about his hip turn, etc. i don’t know if his rookie injury hurt him or what, but i thought he’d be dynamite in coverage as a LB. Most did. weird.
well, he has spent his entire career behind Jared Allen...
Jared usually pushes the LT so far into the pocket, that Greenway often has to cover an extended area of the field, especially during screens. Add to that our weak secondary and he does have a lot of area to cover.
Perhaps he is just handicapped by JA’s awesomeness.
i guess that's the thing to me...
we need to replace some LB’s/secondary anyway. i’ve said we need to get both a rookie LB and a rookie CB early in the draft. going to a 3-4 doesn’t change that. and i think most of our guys would do even better at it.
we could use an upgrade at DT for sure (either way) but you can’t accomplish everything in one offseason for this team.
If they are going to do it now is the time, you are right on that.
But Frazier has already said it will not happen under him. So they need to can him then. Two more rebuilds as a 4-3 with him as a coach would make it much much harder to switch later
he has?
he’s been pretty non-committal re: scheme of late.
what do you mean?
that’s exactly what it looks like to me;
“not ruling it out”/“caution”/“make sure we can still do what we do well”
I don’t think he’s slamming the door on the 3-4 at all. And everything in that article is a FAR cry from “we’re never doing that while I”m here".
The "just bc others do it doesn't mean we should" line
to me is an indication that he won;t switched. otherwise he would have said we will look at all options. He went out of his way to knock it down, He is a DEF guy and a Tampa-2 guy. It would not work with him as coach and a 3-4 DC. Plus All the stars on the Def side of the ball, Allen, KWill, Greenway all said they have no interest in it. He makes that change he looses his team. I would bet as long as Frazier is around we run out of a 4-3 a majority of the time.
I don't know...
again, it’s all about the coordinator. If you get an established coordinator with success and an ability to relate to his starts (as Phillips has) it can be done.
As for what he said, I guess I disagree. I think that’s more just typical Frazier being cautious and not committing one way or the other. Basically saying “let’s not get ahead of ourselves here”. Again, all of his statements are a FAR cry from “we’re not switching while I’m here.”
Actually Robison does not fit a 3-4 DE at all, he would be moved to an OLB
as a pass rushing specialist, whom we then could not use because that position would be occupied by allen
We're paying Frampton $850k?
Wow.
I can’t see any reason why Cleveland would trade with us to move up one spot, but otherwise, I like your plan.
They would want RGIII
there is a fantastic reason, especially since Holmgren said they like him. Could be a smoke screen, but I believe they want him
Why would they need to trade with us
We aren’t going to pick him.
Even if we didn't take him
There are a few other teams that would like to jump in front of the Browns to get him. Moving down one spot would be best case for the Vikings especially if Kalil happened to still be on the board, (this would only be the case if the Rams took WR or CB at 2).
by VikesFanInTulsa on Jan 6, 2012 10:36 AM CST up reply actions
exactly...
the vikes can essentially tell the browns; “trade with us or washington is getting rgIII”. i’m worried about the rams trading down, but ending up with kalil at #3 wouldn’t exactly be the worst thing in the world.
I dont see how people have so little common sense
that they can not see that argument lol. Thank god you and VikesFan can actually pick up on it :)
;)
I think three things could happen
1. STL trades out of #2 for a team that wants RGIII, we get Kalil at #3.
2. STL takes Kalil, We trade out of #3 for a team that wants to best CLE to the punch for RGIII, and get a bunch of picks.
3. STL takes blackmon, We trade out of #3 with CLE who wants to ensure they get RGIII, we take Kalil at 4 and get picks—- IDEAL SITUATION :)
yup...
that’s EXACTLY what i see. hoping for #3 too.
i will say that if kalil and rgIII are somehow both there at 3...
that we don’t trade down lower than 4.
because if we traded with someone other than the browns, they may be looking to trade down themselves at 4 and guaranteed teams would be looking to trade up for kalil.
I agree Kalil should be our top priority if on the board
however if a team with a Mid-Rd pick were to offer up say their 1st, 2nd and 4th this year, plus their first next year or something, I feel they should listen as we could still get Martin, Reiff or DeCastro between 9-13
yep...
though i’m much higher on martin than the others.
i rate it as:
kalil
gap
martin
gap
others
as OT prospects?
I agree Kalil #1, Martin #2a, Reiff #2b. It was actually the other way around before the Iowa bowl game where Reiff played fine but was not as dominant as I would have liked. I would still be happy with him in the middle of the first though
of OL prospects...
I like Kalil quite a bit better than Martin, and Martin quite a bit better than Reiff, personally.
you mean all other players?
if so, i’d go something like:
Luck
gap
Kalil/RGIII
gap
Richardson/Claiborne/Martin
gap
Blackmon/Reiff/Coples/Burfict
personally.
I’m not real high on Blackmon at all at the pro level. But who knows.
That one spot just got more valuable
With Landry Jones returning to Oklahoma. That is another QB out of the draft market so more teams looking to move up to get RG3. As a side-note, this would also increase Ponders value if the Vikings did the right thing and took RG3 themselves.
by VikesFanInTulsa on Jan 6, 2012 10:32 AM CST up reply actions
Not sure where you are coming from
There is no way that a guy named Larry Dean or Tyron McKenzie (who I have never heard of despite being an avid Vikings fan) , Remi Ayodele, or Steve Hutchinson are locks to make the team. I would strongly doubt that Ayodele and Hutchinson will be with the team past the initial round of cuts.
Hutchinson won’t be easy to cut, but it is time. Maybe he would want to catch on with a contender for a last season in the NFL.
The Vikings would be extremely lucky to bring in any big-name free agents like the ones you listed. Most will not sign with the Vikings because it is not clear what city the Vikings will be playing in year to year, our current stadium sucks, and we aren’t a team on the cusp of “winning now.”
Herrera is absolutely not retiring or being cut. He is not injured going into this offseason. He will be back for his contract year next year. He will start for the Vikings and do great.
did you even read the entire post?
because apparently you didn’t.
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recommended FanPosts
Recent FanPosts
In Association With
Shutdown Corner - NFL - Yahoo! Sports
- Former high-school star Brian Banks does serious time on trumped-up charge, now hopes for an NFL shot
- Former ‘idiot kicker’ Mike Vanderjagt in trouble after accosting junior-high heckler
- Adrian Peterson blows teammates away in footraces; appears to be on the mend
- UPDATE: Charlie Sheen didn’t buy Lawrence Taylor’s Super Bowl ring
- Alex Smith gets blown up by Jon Beason over Cam Newton comments
