And So It Begins...DL Coach Karl Dunbar Fired
by Ted Glover on Jan 6, 2012 2:49 PM CST
in Minnesota Vikings 2011 Season
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PrintColor me surprised on this move, as the Vikings have fired defensive line coach Karl Dunbar. There wasn't a lot to cheer about as a VIkes fan in 2011, and other than Jared Allen, the defensive line was a source of concern for a good part of the season.
Kevin Williams had a somewhat down year, as he served a bogus two game suspension, then dealt with a foot injury for a good part of the season. He seemed to get healthier late in the year, and it was no coincidence that his game picked up towards the end of the year.
His counterpart, though, was nowhere to be found, except on the side of a milk carton. Free agent pickup Remi Ayodele was a waste of a roster spot and had no impact all year long. Rookie DT Christian Ballard had an up and down year, but he showed some potential.
Brian Robison started out strong, but faded badly at the end of the season, virtually disappearing over the last 8 or nine games. Everson Griffen came on strong, though, and it's not like the Vikings defensive line was bad--they were near the top in sacks, and in a disappointing season, it wasn't a terrible performance overall.
But it wasn't good enough, and the first on what will be many defensive whackings has commenced.
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Dunbar publicly said he wouldn't be back
What’s the scoop?
"At this point, what we got to lose, right? So we might as well throw caution to the wind and hit people in the face."
--Vikings DE Jared Allen
That he was fired I guess
Which makes no sense at all to me.
And Williams matched last year’s productivity in two fewer games.
He said he wouldn't be back before the bears game
I thought maybe he had another gig lined up. Now he gets fired…Just wondering what’s going on behind the scenes. Maybe he wasn’t being a team player.
"At this point, what we got to lose, right? So we might as well throw caution to the wind and hit people in the face."
--Vikings DE Jared Allen
I have a bad feeling Pagac may have
thrown Dunbar, the secondary coach and even Singletary under the bus to save his own job.
what gives you that feeling?
Pagac had his play calling duties stripped. Seems like the onus fell directly on him.
"At this point, what we got to lose, right? So we might as well throw caution to the wind and hit people in the face."
--Vikings DE Jared Allen
This is really interesting...
If there was one coach on the defense I thought was most likely to have a safe job, it was him. Methinks something went down behind the scenes.
I’m really hoping it wasn’t Dunbar going “no way in hell I’m implementing 3/4” and getting fired for it.
I don't hope it isn't that
Because that would mean a 4-3 is coming.
all for a 3-4...
but I seriously doubt it was that.
I agree though; not in favor of this move. Dunbar seemed to be a great positional coach, and I expect him to be snapped up quickly.
The only reason KW had an “off year” is because he was playing hurt for most of it.
it really wasn't an off year
He didn’t match his prior best years, but in 14 games his stats are right in line with what he has typically done over 16 games.
i'm not really a big "stat" guy in football...
there are just way too many variables to account for.
i’d say that he was less active this year but again, i think that’s because of an injury. and i’m a huge KW guy. i think he’s more important and impactful to this team than Jared Allen, personally.
You would have to be really, really dumb
to tell the head coach “No” when instructed to make a change like that. I wouldn’t be surprised if they have someone in mind already. Probably someone who would suit the likings of Raheem Morris, cause I think Pagac is a goner too.
Build up your weaknesses until they become your strong points." --Knute Rockne
perhaps this means that Morris is getting close...
and he’s got his own guy in mind?
It’s weird that Dunbar is fired before Pagac though.
That is wierd.
You’d think they’d do it all in one fell swoop, but this is the Vikings and you never know for sure what to expect.
Build up your weaknesses until they become your strong points." --Knute Rockne
I don't think thats it either
Wasn’t it last year when Morris was trying to lure Dunbar to TB to be the line coach?
by Simply_Greatness on Jan 6, 2012 8:53 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
yeah, kind of weird
it was highly unlikely he would be back, but DLine was the only strong point of our D.
if this indicates anything, i think it proves the entire Defensive staff is getting canned (though Singletray might squeak by, unjustifiably).
whoever the new DC is will get to have input at each asst coach position. fresh start, even if we do stay in the Tampa-2.
"Th_r_'s n_ h_p_ f_r _ssh_l_ f_ckw_ts."
Can I buy a vowel...?? +1, Kluwe.
by rj-b on Jan 6, 2012 3:04 PM CST via Android app reply actions
Actually Robison had 2.5 sacks in his last 4 games.
It was the middle of the season where he disappeared, going weeks 6-12 with one sack, but he did have 44 tackles on the year. He had only 11 less tackled than JA, which is fitting because JA had 14 more sacks. So really, other than the sacks, they played the run the same.
Also, JA had 4 FF and Robison had 3 forced fumbles
I am not sure why people are sooo down on Robison, it could have been much worse 44/8/3 is a pretty respectable stat line
agree...
I still love Robison and think he’s only going to get better. He played better this year than Ray Edwards did last year, for instance. And I expect him to improve next year. I actually think Robison could be a Jared-Allen like force in a couple of years. Most teams would love to have him IMO.
But he is only 10 months younger than Allen
So I do not see how Robison can be in the Vikes long term plan if Allen is not. I just noticed that when i was looking up the stat line. JA born 82 and BR born 83.
I do think Robison is most effective as a rotational guy though.
However on third and long (with DL being our strength) I do not see why they would not go into a 5-2 defense. Put Allen, KWill, Robison, Griffin, Ballard/another DT out there all at the same time with their hands down.
that's the thing...
you can always rotate guys and keep everyone fresh. makes your defense that much better IMO.
Because doing that
Means leaving a slant, a TE or a RB in wide open in space. No one adds a down lineman against the pass.
and all our players are better with their hand on the ground than standing up
that is why Allen wants to stay at DE and not a 3-4 OLB. They are two different techniques.
not 10 months...
about a year. but you’re right; i didn’t realize that robison was that old.
Really? Wow, I didn't know that.
He must have graduated from school quite late then.
"Man invented language to satisfy his deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
Robison is a good player
I think he will do very well next year spelling Allen and Griffen.
I think we'd have to analize how many times opposing teams ran right or left
Before we can make a justifiable conclusion when factoring tackles for our DEs. My gut tells me that they ran more to Robison’s side and away from Jared Allen’s side. Thus Robison would have had more opportunities for tackles and still came up short. I could be wrong. But that is my gut just from recollection.
"At this point, what we got to lose, right? So we might as well throw caution to the wind and hit people in the face."
--Vikings DE Jared Allen
Actually. well, especially in 2010 teams were running right AT JA
This is because he pushes up field so much on every play the can run right behind him.
Not talking about 2010
In 2010 we had one of the best run stuffing DE’s in Ray Edwards on the team.
"At this point, what we got to lose, right? So we might as well throw caution to the wind and hit people in the face."
--Vikings DE Jared Allen
KWill plays 3 tech and JA a 7 or 9
So they typically were on the same side. I was not implying that they ran away from JA because he is so stout vs the run, but I think they ran at BRob because he is not very good vs the run. He would literally get washed down on every play that went outside the tackle.
"At this point, what we got to lose, right? So we might as well throw caution to the wind and hit people in the face."
--Vikings DE Jared Allen
Its tough to know, would be interesting to see if anyone anywhere had that kind of data
aside form the FO that is
Oh that Data exists
but may not be very accessible to fans, but you can be that Coach’s and FO’s have access to it.
Will the Real Thor Please Stand Up ... ?
by the Real Thor on Jan 6, 2012 10:24 PM CST up reply actions
Edwards
Interesting. The guy kind of fell off my radar after he was so desperate to leave MN.
This isn’t attacking you in any way NMVike (you are correct, the guy was great against the run), so please don’t think I’m jumping on you here. This is the first time I’m seeing how Edwards did this year vs. Robison.
Edwards started all 16 reg season games this year and only pulled in 3.5 sacks, 24 tackles, and 9 assists. He had 0 forced fumbles. This was his second worst year since he was a rookie in 2006.
Robison, on the other hand, had 8 sacks, 27 tackles, and 17 assists. He had 3 forced fumbles. This was his first year playing all 16 games.
In his best year, Edwards had 8.5 sacks.
I still think Robison still has room to develop, too.
Regardless, you can definitely see the advantage of having guys like Allen and KWill on your line.
by Odin'sDrunkenSon on Jan 6, 2012 4:26 PM CST up reply actions
Makes you wonder if
anyone would get that kind of production playing with those two guys. If thats the case, maybe trade Robison and just insert Griffin full time on the left side
i have a feeling Griffen will win the starting job anyway
Robison is crazy good rotational depth, but of all the DE-trade talk, we could get sneaky good value for Robison, i’m sure.
not that i want to see him go, but for the right price i wouldn’t argue. JA, on the other hand, is untouchable.
"Th_r_'s n_ h_p_ f_r _ssh_l_ f_ckw_ts."
Can I buy a vowel...?? +1, Kluwe.
Like what a 4th rounder?
I don’t see BRob getting more than a 4th in a trade.
"At this point, what we got to lose, right? So we might as well throw caution to the wind and hit people in the face."
--Vikings DE Jared Allen
No problem
But again, what Edwards did this year in Atlanta, or what BRob did in 2010 as a non-starter isn’t really relevant. Ray Edwards best season was his contract year, 2009, when he had 51 tackles and 8.5 sacks.
"At this point, what we got to lose, right? So we might as well throw caution to the wind and hit people in the face."
--Vikings DE Jared Allen
Doesn't make much sense to me, either
I hope he’s not just a scapegoat/sacrificial lamb.
If you go on pure performance, then Musgrave and Pagac, the top guys on both sides of the ball, should probably be the first to go.
by liveforadrenaline on Jan 6, 2012 3:19 PM CST reply actions
WOW!
I’m not sure what to say about this…I’m shocked to say the least!
WTF is Spielman thinking ?
The Dline has been the only stable facet of the team,,,,, and Spielman is going to make an example of Dunbar?….What a fucking prick!
I guarantee that if it were up to the fans, Spielmans ass, (and a few others) would be packing long before Dunbar!
IMO…this firing is unjustified.
ummm...
why are you blaming Spielman?
Frazier is in charge of hiring and firing his staff. This move is all on Frazier.
:o
I guess I was thinking Spielman was in control…my bad!
Let me change the names real quick :)
WTF is Frazier thinking?
The Dline has been the only stable facet of the team,,,,, and Frazier is going to make an example of Dunbar?….What a fucking prick!
I guarantee that if it were up to the fans, Fraziers ass, (and a few others) would be packing long before Dunbar!
IMO…this firing is unjustified.
Hopefully this isn't the "high level" defensive position the Vikings are interviewing Morris about
Billick: "What did McNabb do to deserve being benched?"
Answer: He upset PETA by killing every worm he came across on a football field.
haha...
no way. it’s been confirmed it’s DC for Morris. Which would make sense. If he was just going to be position coaching it’d almost certainly be DB coach. And for the record; I’m with Chris G; Woods should have been the first coach to go. Our secondary blows.
Woods or Pagac were my guess
Im a little surprised by the move and trying to make sense of the timing
Billick: "What did McNabb do to deserve being benched?"
Answer: He upset PETA by killing every worm he came across on a football field.
like i said earlier...
…i think it’s a clear indication the entire Defensive staff is being (or will be) shown the door.
"Th_r_'s n_ h_p_ f_r _ssh_l_ f_ckw_ts."
Can I buy a vowel...?? +1, Kluwe.
Not surprised
Frazier repeatedly called out the D-Line in numerous press conferences throughout the year. While Jared Allen had a phenomenal year, and Robison and K-Will had respectable years, there were several breakdowns along the D-Line at key moments in games that cost us the game. Most obvious example is the end of the GB game where all we needed to do was stop the GB rush attack. There were several others.
There were a LOT of breakdowns across the defense, and I wouldn’t be surprised if we saw an entirely new staff.
Ponder. Peterson. Percy. Purple Perfection.
It's just odd that Dunbar is the first to get fired.
If the Vikings are Interviewing R. Morris, then I would imagine they’re sticking with the Tampa-2.
I don’t get why K.Dunbar doesn’t fit in the picture too.
Like others have mentioned, there must have been an argument or something!
because there’s a couple few other position coaches that deserve the axe before Dunbar….imo!
And don't forget the weird series of offside penalties on DTs at the end of the San Diego game.
Guion and Evans I think.
"Man invented language to satisfy his deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
Tom Pelissero
Tom Pelissero wrote about staff changes earlier this week
Two NFL sources said defensive line coach Karl Dunbar has told players he won’t be back, although it’s unclear if he has another job lined up.
maybe by getting fired he gets a severance package or something technical like that
by DedicatedFollowerOfFashion on Jan 6, 2012 7:47 PM CST reply actions
Unless this was requested...
… by Dunbar, then this is a poor move by the Vikings. The guy has been a gem for our defensive line and deserved to be treated with more dignity than a news line that he had been fired!
On a different note, I just read on one of those sites that predict compensation draft choices that the Vikings may be entitled to a 4th round pick for Edwards, and due to his salary, a 3rd round pick for Rice. They have factored in all the lost and added players – with Leber’s signing with the Rams securing the Edwards pick. Can’t believe that some sites are saying that the Colts may get upward to a 4th round pick for losing Charlie Johnson to us! It was later mentioned that height only be worth a 6th though…
by blowfishes on Jan 6, 2012 9:07 PM CST via mobile reply actions
For 'height'...
… read ‘he might’.
Now we can all blame my iPhone and my distinct lack of competence in noticing a typo!
by blowfishes on Jan 6, 2012 9:09 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
those sites are wrong...
Johnson is worth a 6th. Leber is worth a 7th. In the end, the Vikings will end up with a 3rd (Rice), a 7th (net value pick for all FA’s lost) and another 7th (supplemental compensatory pick in what would be the 8th rd). Don’t believe that other crap, because it’s not accurate.
Frazier fired Dunbar
The Vikings had announced that Spielman was in charge of everything except schemes and coaching personnel.
Frazier must have wanted Dunbar gone.
Scapegoat.
Plain and simple. He had the best unit of the whole team, besides maybe the RBs.
"I wanted to do it because it's fun, it's fun to do bad things and drive into a car."
by PurplePeopleEaters on Jan 6, 2012 10:49 PM CST reply actions
Naw....
He’ll just bring in “The Refrigerator” Perry to replace Dunbar and they’ll have a big ’85 Bears reunion.
sounds like the fridge has his own issues…http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/playoffs/2010/news/story?id=6091766#
Maybe Dunbar is the only one who needed to be told to leave
The others (Pagac and the secondary coach in particular) probably knew they were done and packed their bags without any goodbyes.
But seriously, this firing puzzles me.
I didn't see this but...
As i had commented else where, it was firing week across the NFL, and we saw teams blow up aolot of staff..yet one team stayed calm and didnt jump on that wagon. The Vikes. Like I had said I dont think some moves will be the obvious and alot of people are going to be surprised. Im still with the notion that Spielman is talking with each coach gathering who is going to nod in the direction of where they want to go as a team. This year was not a melt down. Rather it was the last year of the past lack of change and growth toward the future. A rock bottom per say. It doesnt matter who did the firing.Some here say ohh it was Frazier..at the level of the NFL do you really think one day Frazier walks in and sais your gone and then Spielman comes in to hear about it? Not even.
As far as “scapegoat” how can there be one? No one expected big things this year and if anyone did they didnt realize how bad the team is. Im thinking some changes we will see like this one have nothing to do with what did or did not happen this year and have more to do with now that we are here and have to move in this direction is this or that attitude or person going to be a fit.
@}-----You've been Touched-----{@
I was surprised.
The only thing I could think of was:
1. Maybe there’s something to the rumors about going to a 3-4.
2. Maybe Dunbar was penalized for all of the weird off sides penalties by his young DTs.
3. Maybe Dunbar was penalized for his “input” (if any) on Remi.
After that, I’m a bit lost on what the issue could have been.
"Man invented language to satisfy his deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
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