Playmaker Or Road Grader?
by Ted Glover on Feb 27, 2012 3:29 PM CST
in Minnesota Vikings 2012 Off-Season
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PrintHoly Trinity member and Strib beat writer Dan Wiederer had a post on the Srib's Access Vikings blog on why it might not be a bad idea to pass on Matt Kalil and go after a 'playmaker' instead.
The argument goes that if the Vikings could find a 'serviceable' LT, I assume through free agency, then they could call that position filled and use the number three pick in April's draft to get young QB Christian Ponder (or Joe Webb, for you Spiderman loyalists) some weapons to throw to.
I couldn't disagree more, and neither could Tom Pelissero, apparently.
This isn't meant to call out Mr. Wiederer, but it just goes to show a couple things that are coming from the Vikings...or specifically from GM Rick Spielman.
Because it's Spielman that's saying that the Vikings don't HAVE to draft Matt Kalil if he's there. Never mind that he's about as safe a pick in terms of talent, because see, the VIkings could find a journeyman LT that could get the job done, use the #3 pick to draft a 'playmaker', and hoo boy, watch out.
The problem with that is that I'm not sure anyone believes Spielman. I'm not sure if Rick Spielman even believes himself when he says it.
Why? The Vikings went with a journeyman LT in Charlie Johnson after they cut ties with Bryant McKinnie...and it was...what's the word I'm looking for here...it was an unmitiagted disaster. If Christian Ponder or Joe Webb are to develop into a quality quarterback, they need protection. If they get it, they'll be good. If they don't, we'll have the next David Carr or Tim Couch on our hands.
Left tackles, good left tackles, are tough to come by. As Wiederer notes in his blog post, of the seven guys listed as a LT that made the Pro Bowl this past season, five of them were first round picks, and three of those guys were top 5 guys (Jake Long, Joe Thomas, and D'Brickashaw Ferguson).
The Vikings haven't drafted a tackle in the first round very often, but when they've had, it's been money. Ron Yary (1968) ended up in the Hall of Fame. Steve Riley (1974) was a starter at right tackle for 8 of his 10 years. More recently, Todd Steussie was a very good pick in 1994 and played well, false start penalties aside, earning two pro bowl berths. Korey Stringer (RIP, big man) was a right tackle and was just entering his prime before the 2001 tragedy, and Bryant McKinnie was a decent LT for almost a decade, even if he didn't fully live up to his potential.
If these past three seasons have taught us anything, it's that great quarterback play (Brett Favre in 2009) can mitigate a lot of weaknesses on the offensive line, but average QB play (Favre 2010, TJ, Ponder, McNabb) cannot overcome bad line play, and without a good line, your offense isn't going anywhere.
Kalil isn't as sure a thing as walking into a cathouse wearing a suit of $100 bills, but he seems to be about as close to that as you can get. I'll be stunned if the Vikings don't take Matt Kalil if he's there. Then I'll probably get really mad.
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Said it over a month ago
Kalil or Bust. That is all.
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by Eric J. Thompson on Feb 27, 2012 3:33 PM CST reply actions
But I couldn't copy and paste
Because you’d get mad…and stuff. Personally, I think the staff will melt down if they stay at three, Kalil is there, and the Vikes don’t grab him.
I know I will.
"You're pissed because we went after a committed guy? Guess what, we got 9 guys who better go do it again. Do it a little harder next time." Ohio State Coach Urban Meyer.
Even if RGIII was still there?
;D Honestly I think Kalil is about as sure as a guy walking into a cat house with $20’s taped all over him. So I’ll go that far.
The Vikes aren't in a remodeling or reconstruction they are in a burn the place down and start praying they don't mimic the Lions rebuilding process.
Sure
IF you can get a serviceable tackle elsewhere, then you could maybe get a playmaker.
But that’s a huge “if” and it isn’t going to happen, so, um, no.
Let's put it this way
There’s a reason there are more playmakers available in free agency than there are “serviceable” left tackles.
Similarly, we can get a good to great WR in the 2nd round. The prospects of finding a left tackle there are much lower though.
Luck and RG III will go 1 & 2, this weekend almost guarantees it. Kalil will be there and we need to take him.
by Cobra312004 on Feb 27, 2012 10:44 PM CST up reply actions
Kalil. Period.
I want our QB (whoever it is) to have time to throw.
All the time in the world. Like 8-10 seconds on every darned pass play. Not simply just enough time if everything goes according to how we draw it up.
I want an O-line that provides plenty of time for an average QB and average Playmakers to make some plays.
Only the offensive line can deliver time. So color me Kalil. Period.
by Lars in SLP on Feb 27, 2012 4:02 PM CST via mobile reply actions
If Blackmon was the 2nd coming of Calvin Johnson I could see an argument
But he’s not (not close). Even if he was at Megatron’s level as a WR prospect Kalil is at that level for an LT prospect. The 2nd most important position in football (3rd if you like pass rushers more). While WR isn’t among the top 3 and there are a lot of good receivers available that wouldn’t cost a top 10 pick.
Worst case scenario
My nightmare scenario is that the Vikes get additional pick(s) from someone to move down 4-5 places. They then draft a “playmaker” who turns out to be ok, and get a “serviceable” LT later in the draft who also turns out to be ok for 3-4 years and then we’re back on this merry-go-round again. I think taking Kalil makes so much sense because he seems like a guy you can draft and plug into the lineup as a Solid – Pro Bowl caliber LT for the next 10 – 12 years. Kalil can step in on day 1 and make this line instantly better. Then you can move Johnson to guard and maybe keep Hutch (for 1/2 of what he’s making) and have 2 very solid guards with young developmental guys behind them. So I think adding 1 stud to our OL can make the whole line instantly better.
I just hope Spielman doesn’t over think this this …
Wiederererer seems to have Blackmon tinted glasses.
its all the time!
Quite simply if Kalil is there, we take him. If not then we move down and select the next beat LT.
by Scottish Viking on Feb 27, 2012 4:11 PM CST via Android app reply actions
Kalil
Honestly, I don’t see the point of the argument against Kalil…I mean, the same could be said in reverse. “If you have an above average line, that can make your average receiver look good because they can give your qb time in the pocket and time for the receiver to get open.” Right now, the biggest hole in the team is on the offensive line. You take what’s best at the greatest need. Yeah, we have a lot of needs, but why pick Robin when you can have Batman?
that's exactly the point BAnimal made below
look at Tom Brady and the Pats. Other than the Moss years, he never had a dominant skill player at WR or even RB for that matter. But their solid oline makes everyone else play better.
"At this point, what we got to lose, right? So we might as well throw caution to the wind and hit people in the face."
--Vikings DE Jared Allen
Rick Spielman lies so much during the offseason
I’m amazed he can keep his thoughts straight when the time comes to make drafts and FA moves. “OK guys, Kalil’s there, but you know, we don’t HAVE to take him. Wait, that was a lie when I said it! Right? Shit! What do we do?!”
We’re getting Kalil if he’s there, and I don’t think we need to worry about that. Quite frankly, I think the only reason Spielman’s just not coming out and saying it is because he wants to keep the ‘trade bait’ possibility open should something weird and unexpected occur (for example, if the Rams suddenly went nuts and drafted Blackmon at #2 rather than Kalil or trade, and next thing you know, the Redskins are offering US the world). Man covers his bases like nobody I’ve ever seen.
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Kalil or Bust...I AGREE
Take a look at how the Texans, Patriots, Jets (hard to swallow that one) have been doing it. Brady constantly has 4-8 seconds to scan the field. Texans have Schaub but one of the best lines in the game right now….hintz the Arian Foster dominating the run game. Please dont take that as AP is not the best because he is…however being stuffed at the line constantly kills AP yards. Foster is tearing it up because he has HOLES. Brady is sitting back scanning the field, grabbing a snickers, unwrapping a hot dog, and throwing the ball to Gronk or Hernandez after what seems to be eturnity.
OLine has to be upgraded for those star players to shine. Is blackmon the next megatron?…whos to say no…..however when ponder is scrambling 2 seconds after he gets the ball who has time to throw the ball deep??
Brady is brady because of his OLINE. Houston has a good oline, and again hard to swallow Jets have a decent oline. Payton is Payton because he has a release of 2 seconds. He completes the throw and off to the house they go.
Take a page for the Patriots OLINE book and get Kalil. Ya we all droul with the options of getting 2-3 more draft picks…however whos to say they turn into pro-bowl caliber players? We have a LT avail at #3 we take them and dont look back.
Free agency is for those playmakers. GO GET STEVIE! GO GET VJax! GO GET LRobinson! The free agency WR class is deep this year. There is options…options are always good!
We need another wideout
But we need a LT twice as much.
Besides, we are supposedly running the West Coast offense, so a speedy downfield guy is not needed. All we need are accurate route-runners if we stick with the WCO.
by liveforadrenaline on Feb 27, 2012 4:45 PM CST reply actions
I don't know about this
If they get it, they’ll be good. If they don’t, we’ll have the next David Carr or Tim Couch on our hands.
I never understood where this thinking comes from. Is it to say that David Carr and Tim Couch were going to be great quarterbacks, but they were exposed too early to NFL pass-rushes and that somehow skewed their development? So were Joey Harrington and Alex Smith. But you know who else stepped into teams with not-so-great protection and got their asses kicked for the first few years? Peyton Manning, Aaron Rodgers, even little Eli got tossed around those first three years. They seem to have developed just fine.
The point is that a QB is either going to develop into a quality player or he’s not. Sure, it’s not easy to do when there’s a ton of rush coming at you all the time, but the good ones find a way to do it. Look at Mark Sanchez…. he’s got all day to throw and he still sucks. How’s his development coming along?
The guys who flamed out like David Carr and Tim Couch were never going to be good. They don’t just play with one team their whole career… they get second and third chances, and they’re still no good. Jury’s still out on Ponder and Webb, obviously, but their development will happen regardless of their O-Line situation.
I see your point
But Aaron Rogers is not a good example. He was brought along very slowly on a very good team. He was not thrown into the fire as a rookie.
"At this point, what we got to lose, right? So we might as well throw caution to the wind and hit people in the face."
--Vikings DE Jared Allen
First order of business
I can see it now. Impact receiver wide open while Ponder is trampled under foot. Give Ponder/Webb a chance, take Kalil.
by favregasms on Feb 27, 2012 5:40 PM CST via mobile reply actions
Exactly
Impact wide receiver is 40 yards downfield, which translates to about 5-6 seconds downfield after he gets bumped and has to dodge a defender or two.
Meanwhile, Ponder/Webb has been laying flat on the ground with 300-1200 pounds of linemen on top of him after 4 seconds…
by liveforadrenaline on Feb 27, 2012 8:32 PM CST up reply actions
Purple People Eaters
Look back to our Super Bowl days and what cost us the games. The Purple People Eaters were controlled but not dominated on my account. Except for the Franco and Rocky show that one year!
Our offensive line was crucified on the other side of the coin. Yary and Tinglehoff was our only strengths and the others were exposed horrible.
To win the Super Bowl a good if not great offensive line is a must and great left tackles don’t drop from the sky in Free Agency without crippling your cap space.
There's a little beserker in all of us!
Do we have to watch the Blindside again?
Draft Kalil, move Johnson over to guard. Potentially upgrade two positions at once.
Blindside was available to us in '09
We took Harvin instead. Baltimore traded up and took Oher with the next pick.
I’d be surprised if we passed on Kalil, but it would in keeping with recent tradition. Spielman loves his playmakers.
"Men are creatures with two legs and eight hands. - Jayne Mansfield
Being honest with myself
If we draft a WR in the first round I’m going to freak out. First round WR are VERY RISKY and for a team with about a million holes, the last thing we need to do is take a risk. We need a sure thing. Kalil is about as close as we are going to get. If Speilman doesn’t draft Kalil if Kalil is still on the board, fire him before the second round starts.
Proof in the pudding
The best teams in the NFL do not generally draft o lineman early in the 1st round. Spielman recognizes this because he is an intelligent personel manager.
Kalil would be a good addition but don’t be shocked if he isn’t the third player taken.
It sucks because there is such an enormous dropoff from RGIII and Luck to the next best players and guess where the Vikings are picking, lol? If we had the #2 pick we could spin it into Kalil and Claiborne!
what a difference a month (or 2) makes.
for the last six months it was ‘after Luck and Kalil the talent in the draft really falls off’. Now with RGIII the flavor of the month Kilil is no longer elite? We can fix our most obvious hole with our 1st pick of the draft with the best available player. Pick that player and our whole team becomes better. Get too fancy and we are guessing and hoping. Just select Kalil and then work on the rest of the team.
The best teams often have Pro-Bowl quality offensive linemen
And the Vikings drafted Ron Yary back in the day with the number one pick, who proved his worth over and over and over and over, etc…
by liveforadrenaline on Feb 28, 2012 8:13 PM CST up reply actions
I think that may be in part because...
…the best teams often have good left tackles and the longevity of a LT is significant (which means it isn’t necessary to dip back into the LT pool very often once you are set at the position).
Great college left tackles get taken early.
"Men are creatures with two legs and eight hands. - Jayne Mansfield
This is a no-brainer
which of course has me worried, given we’re talking the Vikes here. How can you draft what you hope is your franchise QB, then pass an opportunity to draft what looks like the second coming of Ron Yary to protect his backside? No amount of skill players downfield matters when your QB is running for his life on every play. Please don’t mess this one up, front office!
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