Interesting RGIII interview with Sports Illustrated
by kcskol on Feb 4, 2012 11:53 AM CST
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I read this interview online and liked what I read from RG3. I already knew he was talented on the field. He's also got a healthy amount of confidence which I pretty much expected. But the part I really like to see is that he sounds reasonable in what he says. If I were a team shopping for a QB, I'd be pumped to have this guy.
And what that means is that I really like our situation at #3 this year. Luck goes 1. And then either St. Louis takes RG3 (unlikely), trades picks (likely), grabs Kalil (also likely) or grabs a Blackmon (unlikely in my view). Whatever they do, we are left with good options: 1) take RG3 for ourselves, 2) grab Kalil or 3) take a generous trade for a team to come up and grab RG3. At this point, I could be happy with any situation in which we either get Kalil or RG3. Yup. I said it. I'd be happy if the Vikings decided to grab RG3.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/writers/don_banks/02/03/robert-griffin/index.html
This FanPost was created by a registered user of The Daily Norseman, and does not necessarily reflect the views of the staff of the site. However, since this is a community, that view is no less important.
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Nice view..
“Yup I said it.”
Oh nooooah yoooouaa diddann’t?!?!
- Nice young man, no doubt about it,
Good collage career, but we have yet to see how he will handle the NFL.
But I would rather trade down than take him, becuase I think we HAVE to start with our O-Line and get protect for our QB. – He, like Ponder did all season, will be beaten often and early if we don’t do something about our Line, at LT + a gaurd as well.
If the Vikings draft a QB in the first round.
I’ll personally drive to Winter Park and throw rocks at the windows….JK :)
CP7 is not the problem!
I think the Oline is the biggest problem the Vikings have, and it’s going to take more than 1 draft pick to fix it.
If the Vikings can trade back and and still grab a quality LT, then thats what I think they should do.
I don’t follow college ball so I don’t know the availability, or the quality of the linemen in this years draft, but I would like to see the Vikings draft more than 1 lineman in the early rounds.
by chaosg on Feb 4, 2012 1:02 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
Difficult to say for sure.
I think it’s fair to say that CP7 had a tough season. Moments of promise. Moments of agony. Finished the season poorly.
The O-line is definitely a problem. However, I don’t think it’s safe to say that CP7 isn’t part of the problem. The jury is still out on that.
"Man invented language to satisfy his deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
by kcskol on Feb 4, 2012 3:46 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
You're right, there is not clear thought on Ponder
Here is about as clear as an assumption can get. If Rogers or Breeze had our O-Line and Receivers there rookie year, hell if they had them any time in there career, they would have looked at the best just serviceable. Remember… Even Culpepper looked amazing with a stable of good receivers and O-Line.
\m/
by Edgecrusher71 on Feb 7, 2012 2:35 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
If they draft a QB in the first without some devious plan to trade him for a freaking house of a trade.
I will honestly become a Lions fan until the front office is replaced.
\m/
by Edgecrusher71 on Feb 7, 2012 2:31 PM CST up reply actions
Just what we need....
a third young QB that we can’t protect,
so they can’t develop,
so they will fail,
so that next year we can draft another one,
with the high draft choice we would earn from the miserable season.
Not sure why people keep thinking that this is a good idea?
by socalminfan on Feb 4, 2012 2:53 PM CST reply actions 3 recs
I agree that O-line is a problem.
There’s no doubt about that. However, I think picking at #3 allows us to get something pretty special. That opportunity doesn’t happen very often (hopefully). This pick could play right away (at left tackle) or be a pick for the future (like QB). I’d be okay either way.
"Man invented language to satisfy his deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
If we can somehow get Matt Kalil...
It’s a pick for right away and for the future. If we don’t have a good O-Line, there isn’t really a good future for any QB we put behind it.
Our draft strategy, IMO, needs to be:
1. Take Kalil if available.
2. Trade down for a whole bunch of future picks and still be able to get Martin or Reiff.
Agreed
Kalil if available. Then there is a step down to Rieff/Martin but there is two steps down to the next available LT. We can not trade down out of the top 10 and miss drafting one of those two. IMHO as always.
I guess that Ponder has proven he is really good
No need to evaluate a top QB prospect who is better than Ponder coming out of college.
And what happens when Ponder gets hurt yet again? How many are willing to bet some money that he will not get hurt? History is not on his side. He has only proven that he can get hurt.
So if he does not work out then what will the Vikings do? They will be back in the QB hunt yet again.
When is the next time the Vikings will be picking as high as 3rd? Hopefully not in the near future.
As I posted in other threads already, Mike Shanahan said if you do not have an elite QB, top 5 or 6, then you always have to keep looking and adding QBs to the team. Just like any other position.
The Vikings moved up to get Toby Gerhart when they already had AP. They used two picks to do it too. I hated that move and still do. They took AP when they had Chester Taylor too. That was not a need either. They took Daunte Culpepper when they had Cunningham. They took Moss when they had Carter and Reed.
People are taking this the wrong way. They believe I do not like Ponder. I think he is OK. I just do not know if he can stay healthy and I do not like his velocity on his passes especially to the sidelines. So I am worried because behind him we have Joe Webb who I like but I am even less sure of his ability to pass from within the pocket.
So IMHO the QB position is far from settled. I do not believe in the notion that just because you picked Ponder last year that you should not look to upgrade if you can. If anyone can guarantee that Ponder is actually going to be good then I could see their argument. But they cannot. Heck even RG3 may not be good.
The Vikings still do not have a QBOTF. They have one they are hoping can be that guy but so far it is not looking good from a durability standpoint.
They should take the BPA at #3 if they do not trade down. They can use the rest of the draft to pick for needs. I think they will address a lot of needs in free agency thus leaving the draft to select the BPA in every round according to their board.
by MarkSP18 on Feb 4, 2012 3:30 PM CST reply actions 3 recs
I get your point
But to draft RG III and then be without an O-line? how is that going to help us?
- That would be an entire year just to damage the confidence of either QB in front of the line.
I agree that the verdict is still out on CP7.
but I would rather take my chances with Ponder than C. Johnson or Loadholt.
Ponder hasn’t proven that he’s the QBOTF yet, but he hasn’t proven that he isn’t either….
Lets beef up the oline, grab a FA-wr and find out.
All this RG3 talk is just for fun anyway. Considering the Vikings gave TJack 4yrs, I’m assuming that they’ll give Ponder at least 2yrs.
I don't think BPA theory works for QBs
Cunningham/Culpepper isn’t exactly the best example to point to. Cunningham was ancient by that point in his career. It’s not like we were going to have him around for 10+ years.
The QB position may be far from settled, but it still won’t be settled if we draft RG3 and can’t protect him or give him receivers to throw to. If we can give Ponder or Webb protection and receivers, our QB situation MAY work itself out. We don’t want to end up like the Matt Millen’s Detroit Lions of QBs.
BPA at #3 would probably be
Trent Richardson, not RGIII.
And from a durability standpoint, as you said above
Adrian Peterson’s career is in more trouble long-term than Christian Ponder’s. Many RB’s never come back to their old self after ACL surgeries. Not to mention the fact that he already lost a step from his 4.4 speed he had his first 2 seasons…. The future for him looks a lot more bleak than Ponder’s, at least from a durability standpoint.
Taking Trent Richardson would make a lot more sense than taking RGIII.
But we won’t take either. We believe we have our QBOTF (which I agree with) and that we have our stud RB (who was an absolute stud, but I am doubtful he ever returns to his old self). We will not address either position early in this draft. We will either go LT or on the defensive side of the ball. I really hope we go LT early, or we’ll never know if Christian Ponder is the future of this franchise.
Well...
…having an elite RB is not essential to winning anymore. Serviceable backs who can pass protect and catch some passes are the new trend to success. They can be had in the second and third rounds. In fact, i will be suprised if Richardson goes top 10.
What's really to bad
Is they didn’t take Rogers when they had Culpepper.
by VikesFanInTulsa on Feb 5, 2012 9:02 AM CST up reply actions
Exactly
And that he needed 3 years to get his throwing to the point that he actually became good because the first two years they thought he would be a bust.
As well, has anyone cared to look into Eli Manning’s numbers the first 3 years?
2006 ~~301 522 ~~57.7 ~~3,244 ~~6.2 ~~24 ~~18 ~~77.0
2005 ~~294 557 ~~52.8 ~~3,762 ~~6.8 ~~24 ~~17 ~~75.9
2004 ~~95 197 ~~48.2 ~~1,043 ~~5.3 ~~6 ~~9 ~~~55.4
I am getting really tired of all this bullshit talk.
Agreed.
Eli is going to play for his 2nd Super Bowl this afternoon, and if the Giants would have judged him on his rookie season, he’d have never played another snap in the NFL. Christian Ponder had a much better rookie season (54% vs. 48%, 13:13 TD:INT vs. 6:9 TD:INT)…
But elite QB’s aren’t made overnight. Give Christian time. To even discuss us drafting RGIII is stupid talk. IT’S NOT HAPPENING. Nor should it. We need to protect our investment, and to do that we need to address the O-Line. It’s pretty simple.
Ponder's numbers are also very similar to Matt Leinart
Leinart threw for 2547 yards (56.8%) with 11 TDs and 12 INTs and a QB rating of 74.0. Whose to say he will not be the next Leinart? Comparing him to Manning is not a good comparison because unfortunately Ponder is injured way more than Eli.
As for the stupid talk, I think it is just as stupid to put all of our eggs into the Ponder basket considering how often that basket is broken. Comparing Ponder to Eli is stupid because Eli is infinitely more durable. He was at Ole Miss and he is now in the NFL.
I do believe there is merit in discussing the possibility of the Vikings actually drafting RG3. If the front office feels he is the BPA and they select him then I would not be upset. I would be very happy to have them both. They could end up trading RG3 a few spots later in the draft. Who knows?
The bottom line is that all players should be considered at the #3 spot. No one should be crossed off the list. Not even Trent Richardson.
That is what this is all about. Rational discussion. Some cats do not like the idea and that is cool. They are willing to bypass a potential elite QB and go with Ponder. That is fine. Others are intrigued by the idea of drafting another top QB because Ponder is an unknown still which is to be expected but has serious durability issues.
Debate is a good thing especially for this site.
For the record, I have not selected RG3 in any of my scenarios yet. I am waiting to see how he does at the combine, etc. But if he blows it out of the water then I have to seriously reconsider what my final mock will be.
My position is that I seriously hope the Vikings will not be selecting as high as 3rd for years to come. Thus, I have to look at all the top players and RG3 happens to be one of them.
I doubt they take him too. But it is interesting to discuss.
by MarkSP18 on Feb 5, 2012 1:32 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
I will agree that Eli and Ponder is not a great comparison...
Eli is more durable. No doubt.
But Eli had a worse rookie season than Ponder. No doubt there either.
What I brought up about 3 weeks ago was the Ponder/Stafford comparison.
Rookie season’s:
Ponder: 158/291 (54.3%) 1,853 yards (6.4 YPA) 13 TD 13 INT
Stafford: 201/377 (53.3%) 2,267 yards (6.0 YPA) 13 TD 20 INT
Who’s to say Ponder won’t go on to be a very successful QB in this league? Because he had a better rookie season than a guy who threw for over 5,000 yards with 41 TD’s and 16 INT’s… I know Stafford had better arm strength than Ponder as a rookie, but Ponder had better decision-making and accuracy. Ponder will gain better arm strength. Arm strength is one of the easier things to improve upon for QB’s. Aaron Rodgers had a weak arm coming out of college, and if he started as a rookie, I doubt he would have had a better season than Ponder. (especially behind our line)
If we are truly going BPA, Trent Richardson is the choice. I don’t like that pick either. I really don’t like using 1st round picks on RB’s, especially in such a pass-happy league. That’s another discussion though. It would be rational to pick Trent Richardson if he does run the 40 in the 4.4 range. Odds are that AP will never be the same.
Mel Kiper said the exact same thing...
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/columns/story?columnist=kiper_jr_mel&id=3279488
and I quote… “Accurate, smart and athletic, Rodgers is a better prospect than former Cal standout and current Ravens starter Kyle Boller. He has above average arm strength, but he can be a bit mechanical in his throws.”
That’s pretty similar to what they said about Ponder. His only knock was the average to above average arm strength. Another profile said that Rodger’s biggest problem was not being able to hit receivers down field, thus making them adjust on the go.
He wasn’t a perfect prospect either. I can’t believe all the Ponder hate.
Actually, that is not true. There were several concerns about him
in his scouting reports. I think it is fine to point those things out and not try to gloss over them. Griffin has a much higher rating and much better concensus scouting report coming out of college.
For instance, several scouting reports questioned Ponder’s ability to read defenses, makes mistakes in critical situations, has questionable arm strength, tends to float passes, and noted the fact that he tries to forces throws into double coverage. Those things were all said about him in multiple scouting reports. It’s not hate, it’s just the facts.
You don't tug on Superman's cape
You don't spit into the wind
You don't pull the mask of the Spiderman
And you don't trash talk about him
by REVENGE4WEBB on Feb 5, 2012 2:46 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
Make mistakes in critical situations?
Evident by his 16 TD’s and 1 INT in the red zone his last year at Florida State?
Another fact about Ponder
Is that the Vikings liked him because of his mental toughness, leadership qualities, football acumen, and overall intelligence; things that don’t have statistics to back them up.
That’s why the team believes he’ll be a good football player. He will continue to grow as a player and approach the game in the right way. He’s no slouch of an athlete and he has shown flashes.
We’ve got our QB that we’ll stick with for at least the next 2-3 years, that’s another fact. Weather you like it or not, that’s the way it is. I, for one, love it. I believe he will be a pro-bowl QB and a great leader for us. I can’t change the way any of you feel about him, just like you can’t change the way the team feels about him. I’m just thankful the team feels the same way I do.
Griffin would beat him out, but then again, they would give him a shot to.
You don't tug on Superman's cape
You don't spit into the wind
You don't pull the mask of the Spiderman
And you don't trash talk about him
the Matt Lienart comparison is a good one.
I was just going to say something about him when your comment popped up. The one thing that sticks out in comparing them is that neither of them have a strong arm to work with. Lienart had great success in college, but then he played at USC while they were the king of the hill in college football. They played top competition and had quite a run against the best in the nation, but somehow his weaknesses got exposed in the nfl. But I thought he was actually a good qb after seeing him play a little bit for Houston, but he got injured, so we may never get to see him get another shot to prove himself.
You don't tug on Superman's cape
You don't spit into the wind
You don't pull the mask of the Spiderman
And you don't trash talk about him
by REVENGE4WEBB on Feb 5, 2012 2:33 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
This makes me chuckle. Your comparisons to Rodgers and Eli are almost funny.
You realize that Aaron Rodgers was drafted while the Packers had a “certain someone” still in the saddle as their starting qb, right? Aaron rodgers had to wait until Favre finally, eventually, for realz, decided to retire, er keep playing, er retire……uh, get traded, to get a chance to be their starting qb. He responded by throwing for 4000 yards and acquiring a 93.8 qbr. What’s not to like about that?
Also, Rodgers has something that Ponder never will have…a strong throwing arm. That is the raw material that sets him apart from all others. And the Packers are so far ahead of the Vikings in their handling of personnel, that it makes any comparison even sillier. The Packers drafted a qb prospect while they already had their established star qb. Donald Driver is quoted as saying that in Rodgers’ rookie year, that he was making throws in practice that even Favre couldn’t make…yet the Packers still put him through their infamous “quarterback school”. The fact that they improved his throwing motion is a testiment to the Packers’ coaching abilities and foresight.
And that he needed 3 years to get his throwing to the point that he actually became good because the first two years they thought he would be a bust.
^^To say that about Rodgers is….pardon my french…completely farking rutarded.^^
As for Eli Manning, he too has that special something that Ponder never will have…a strong arm. You can’t teach that, you can’t learn that, you can’t suddenly acquire that. And if you don’t have that, you have to limit your offensive scheme and get other star players to compensate for that…
and the nfl is a passing league, it’s where the big boys play. that is why there is apprehension.
Oh, and Eli just happened to be the 1st player selected in the entire draft in 2004, not the 4th qb taken with a reach pick. And he “…won many awards including the Maxwell Award as the nation’s best all-around player, the Johnny Unitas Golden Arm Award, the National Football Foundation and College Hall of Fame Scholar Athlete Award, the Sporting News Radio Socrates Award, and the SEC Player of the Year.” (according to the internet). Mind you, he did all of this while not playing in a second tier conference too. Granted, it was only the SEC, but you get the point. Now, Eli is not the second coming of anything, in my opinion, but his basic skill set is much more suitable for the nfl (he has a strong arm, he can throw from the pocket, he doesn’t stare down his receivers and he doesn’t panic in the face of pressure). And, his college success dwarfs Ponder’s post- redshirt-post-back-up college stats. Just saying.
You don't tug on Superman's cape
You don't spit into the wind
You don't pull the mask of the Spiderman
And you don't trash talk about him
by REVENGE4WEBB on Feb 5, 2012 2:25 PM CST up reply actions 5 recs
Thankfully
you guys have no say so in the draft and the running of the organization because we’d be worse than the lions during the Millen years and utter laughing stocks…to be blunt about it.
The point of the comparison, since it sails over people’s head, is that nearly EVERY SINGLE QB has had troubles, and yep, 99% of the time it was during their rookie years. I don’t give a shit what Rodgers did in his 3rd season nor that Eli was drafted number 1. They both sucked ass in their first years and Rodgers was feared to be a bust, no matter what Driver said. Ponder has not shown that he is a bust yet, no matter what anyone here says. I am not on his bandwagon, but I will certainly not behave so freaking hysterically as some on here are. And yes, you guys are hysterical, and not in the funny sort of way. So get grip, just saying.
by Murgo on Feb 5, 2012 3:09 PM CST up reply actions 3 recs
you guys have no say so in the draft and the running of the organization because we’d be worse than the lions during the Millen years and utter laughing stocks
So, you think that because I said that we should draft an o-line, and not draft Griffin, that we will suck worse than the Lions under Matt Millen?
Aaron Rodgers did not suck his first year, he was a back up to Brett Favre and thus hardly even played. But, he kicked ass his first year as a starter.
You don't tug on Superman's cape
You don't spit into the wind
You don't pull the mask of the Spiderman
And you don't trash talk about him
by REVENGE4WEBB on Feb 5, 2012 3:16 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I don't think you know what you're talking about
Phil Simms:. So I went up there, watched him his first year in practice. “Awful,” I said “Wow. He’s awful.”
Second year I went up there and I remember somebody going “What did you think?” I said "Well the Packers have to be worried that this guy is never going to play for them. I mean really, and you know what, and this is the truth; they were worried.
Then year three I go up there and I’m watching out of the corner of my eye and I go “Wow.” I thought it was Brett and I turned and I watched Aaron Rodgers and I went “Oh my God” and after practice is almost over I said, “Hey Aaron!”
He goes “Oh, hey Phil”.
I said, “Don’t take this the wrong way, but your throwing- it’s unbelievable.”
He goes “Yeah, I know, I’m not taking it wrong, don’t worry. Thanks, I appreciate it. Look, I kind of went back to being natural. Kind of taught myself, they taught me some things.”
Rich, it was an unbelievable transformation. He really went from on a scale of 1-10; he went from a three to a ten. That’s about what I thought. I thought he was a sub-par NFL thrower. Below average, way below average to arguably the best now. It’s unbelievable.
Are you suggesting that Brett Favre was NOT the starting qb in 2005?
You don't tug on Superman's cape
You don't spit into the wind
You don't pull the mask of the Spiderman
And you don't trash talk about him
by REVENGE4WEBB on Feb 5, 2012 3:25 PM CST up reply actions 3 recs
You missed the point of his post
He’s saying, if Rodgers had been starter his first season in the league, he would have sucked.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Feb 6, 2012 11:08 PM CST up reply actions
No, he didn't sat that.
You don't tug on Superman's cape
You don't spit into the wind
You don't pull the mask of the Spiderman
And you don't trash talk about him
by REVENGE4WEBB on Feb 6, 2012 11:10 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
And, also for the record, Murgo doesn’t know what the hell he is saying.
You don't tug on Superman's cape
You don't spit into the wind
You don't pull the mask of the Spiderman
And you don't trash talk about him
by REVENGE4WEBB on Feb 6, 2012 11:12 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
Stop acting so "hysterical"
You don't tug on Superman's cape
You don't spit into the wind
You don't pull the mask of the Spiderman
And you don't trash talk about him
by REVENGE4WEBB on Feb 6, 2012 11:14 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
... Read his post again, man.
That’s the point he’s trying to make. He’s saying Rodgers is as good as he is because he had time to develop behind Favre.
And he posted the article to show you an analysts on-record thoughts of how Rodgers was.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Feb 6, 2012 11:11 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
You are late to the game and didn't read what transpired...
You don't tug on Superman's cape
You don't spit into the wind
You don't pull the mask of the Spiderman
And you don't trash talk about him
by REVENGE4WEBB on Feb 6, 2012 11:13 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Pretty sure I just read the posts, lol
I translated for you.
That was the point he was making. It seemed pretty clear to me.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Feb 6, 2012 11:14 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
No, I mean the thread as it transpired before.
No need to try and translate it for me, but thanks anyway.
You don't tug on Superman's cape
You don't spit into the wind
You don't pull the mask of the Spiderman
And you don't trash talk about him
by REVENGE4WEBB on Feb 6, 2012 11:15 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Well you seemed to completely miss the point
in your response. I thought maybe you didn’t get what he was saying.
I could care less about the pissing contest that’s going on in the thread.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Feb 6, 2012 11:16 PM CST up reply actions
but I will certainly not behave so freaking hysterically as some on here are.
Too late for that.
"Man invented language to satisfy his deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
Oh give me break
I have how many? Maybe a dozen, or at most, couple of dozen or so comments stating that we have to give Ponder the benefit of the doubt, which in no way is a declaration that he is the preordained QBOTF and have all been in response to comments such as these. Though from the other side, there are literally hundreds of anti-Ponder bashing posts and comments.
The “next best thing over Ponder” posts are stupid. I entertained the Luck talk for the already discussed reasons. When is this going to to end? Most QBs give us a glimpse of their potential in their second year. We’ll see with Ponder. For people to flap on and on about this or that, or in Mark’s case, his “injury proneness” is ridiculous. Webb would have been “injury prone” too if he started all these games. Chicago seemed to have his number which means others would have too and you know how that goes.
I wasn’t even talking about you, though funny you felt the need to be insulting. Though I do find it curious the never ending “Ponder sucks and X is better” comments never get tiring while making a case that, hold on we need to use some common sense is “hysterical”. Is it because I didn’t say pretty please?
by Murgo on Feb 5, 2012 5:23 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
If I am lying then just say so
But you know and I know that I am telling the truth. And we know that you do not address his propensity to get injured in any of your posts.
You may call is ridiculous and that is cool. But I see a good young QB that cannot stay healthy which was a concern coming out of college.
As long as there is a debate about RG3 and Ponder is brought up then his issues (i.e. injuries) must be mentioned. If you cannot handle the truth then just say so.
I think it is unfortunate. Maybe it is just bad luck? All I know is I am not sure that the team can trust him to start an entire season.
If they decide to do it then I am all for it. I did not like the pick in the first round last year. If they had an opportunity to get him in the second round I would have been more in favor of the pick. Once i finished my complaining about him right after the draft I moved on and posted scenarios that would help the team going forward with him at QB.
If you notice my scenarios that I post for this upcoming season, I have not selected a QB at all. But in this debate about the merits of RG3, it is something that should be debated.
The fact of the matter is you cannot handle the truth about this young man. Then you post that Webb would have been injury prone too yet he did not get injured when he was in there. So what is that statement based upon? He did not get hurt. That is the truth.
Anyone can make a statement as if it were fact.
The team owes Ponder nothing. He is getting paid well to play football. If they feel RG3 is a better prospect and they take him then I will not be mad at all.
by MarkSP18 on Feb 5, 2012 7:15 PM CST up reply actions 4 recs
Mark, you have my respect as do the others here
And I know you are not “lying” as that implies intent. I also know you are concerned, though we do not know if your concern is truly warranted. Football players get hurt all the time. Ponder’s injuries this year could easily have been prevented if he was protected better. He was mauled all year and anyone behind that line would be hurt in due time.
I hear your concerns and in the end, you may be proven correct, though today and in the foreseeable future, we just do not know. I’m taking the optimistic stance. Others here, like kc and R4W may be proven correct that Ponder is just not NFL caliber, but again, from the evidence we don’t know. I won’t speak for others, but for myself, I understand the concerns and 1) repeatedly talking about them and saying this guy or that is better does us no good. 2) Ponder isn’t going anywhere. 3) Let’s get him help and protection and then judge. 4) I’m not deaf and have heard the concerns/complaints a million times now. 5) If we are going to be critical of Ponder, then at least how about some posts that actually are constructive in how people think Ponder can get better? Those would at least be a little more interesting.
We don’t know if RG will be better and if he is, we aren’t taking him anyway. Simple as that, really.
by Murgo on Feb 5, 2012 7:39 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
I agree 100%
We have heard all of the complaints about Ponder. The fact of the matter is that he’s our QB and we aren’t drafting another first round QB this year. I could see us taking a flyer on a guy like Moore or Davis in the 6th or 7th, but Christian Ponder is our starter going into next season.
Also, if we’re going to pick RGIII because Ponder is injury prone, wouldn’t it make more sense to take Trent Richardson? I’ve said it here before, but nobody even acknowledged it. Trent Richardson is BPA at #3 if Luck and Kalil are gone. AP is coming off of surgery and is quite possibly on the downward slope of his career. He’ll be 27 next season and coming off of that surgery that’s not too friendly to RB’s.
But in the end, there is probably less than a 1% chance that we take either of them. We’ll address O-Line early in this draft. Because if we don’t, neither Christian Ponder nor Adrian Peterson will have much of a chance to succeed the next few years. It’s not really rocket science.
Why are you trying to control other people's comments and thoughts?
If you don’t like what someone else is saying, then don’t read it.
You don't tug on Superman's cape
You don't spit into the wind
You don't pull the mask of the Spiderman
And you don't trash talk about him
by REVENGE4WEBB on Feb 5, 2012 8:43 PM CST up reply actions 3 recs
As I said below
Since when does hearing the same thing over and over again and saying, ok enough already, constitute “controlling people’s thoughts”? The issue is not that you haven’t been allowed to be heard, cuz lord knows, that’s all we been hearing from you and your contingent for months now. This issue, do we need to hear the same thing again? From where I sit, you aren’t saying anything new?
This is a fanpost about a football topic...namely Robert Griffin.
The guy is pretty darn good. Discussing him is discussing a relevant football topic. If you can’t handle a little open discourse, then that is not my problem. I would suggest that you don’t even have to read or comment on a topic that you don’t like, but I have already said that.
You don't tug on Superman's cape
You don't spit into the wind
You don't pull the mask of the Spiderman
And you don't trash talk about him
by REVENGE4WEBB on Feb 5, 2012 9:07 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
Why do you make it sound
as if this is the first we ever heard of this topic and I just don’t want to hear any of it?
But I’ll take your advice and not bother reading any more of the super duper RG threads any more.
This was a post about RG3.
If you think the talk about looking at RG3 in the draft is too repetitive for your taste, move on. Don’t let it ruin your day. I’m going to say what I think, and I’m going to do others the courtesy of explaining why I think what I think. I won’t belittle the opinions of others by instigating personal attacks,cussing or making simplistic statements like “so and so sucks, and that’s a fact.” I’ll make my case even though it’s a virtual minor league sport to paint nuanced points in terms of black and white. I am not anti-Ponder. However, I won’t sit around side stepping stuff for fear that someone is going to get on their high horse and tell me they are sick about hearing negative comments about Ponder. Just four months ago, making a positive comment about Webb was viewed as anti-Ponder. If others want to make it into that, I don’t view that to be my problem.
RG3 is a legit high draft pick. Like you I also doubt that the Vikings will take him at #3, but I don’t think it’s because they think Ponder is a better QB than RG3 will be.
"Man invented language to satisfy his deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
by kcskol on Feb 5, 2012 8:46 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
RG3 is a legit high draft pick. Like you I also doubt that the Vikings will take him at #3, but I don’t think it’s because they think Ponder is a better QB than RG3 will be.
I don’t understand the bolded part. Do you mean Ponder’s current state or his future state doesn’t equal to RG3’s future state? As of right now Ponder is the better NFL QB. Until RG3 takes snaps and lead a team then you really can’t say he is better in the NFL right now.
☠★☪Creator of http:/vikescity.info/ and dedicated DN reader.
by UnBannedVikingholic on Feb 6, 2012 7:21 PM CST up reply actions
Future state to future state comparison.
Of course today Ponder is a NFL QB and RG3 isn’t. I was referring to the fact that RG3 is considered a top talent because of what the pros think he’s going to be able to do during his NFL career. And there’s pretty good consensus on that point. Ponder didn’t get that same level of support, and IMO this past season Ponder didn’t give me reason to think he was underestimated by the scouts and analysts.
"Man invented language to satisfy his deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
I'm a bit of a homer
and I don’t believe in falling for the “hype” and giving up on a guy that only has ten games under his belt and showed some promise who was on a team heading towards destruction anyhow. I think this team would have failed with any QB at our helms this season, just so happens the rookie QB takes the biggest chunk of the responsibility. However, I’m not closed to exploring RG3, but I really don’t know much about him other than what people here point out and the scouting reports. Ultimately I want the best guy running this team and I want us to win, but you have to give your guy the best chance to win and Ponder hasn’t had that yet. Maybe RG3 will be better, maybe he won’t, we don’t know and the risk of drafting another QB in the first round could damage the little chemistry and trust this teams has with it coaches. No one should feel safe with their job, but everyone should feel the coaches have their upmost support.
☠★☪Creator of http:/vikescity.info/ and dedicated DN reader.
by UnBannedVikingholic on Feb 7, 2012 1:21 AM CST up reply actions
Seem fair to me.
I’m also happy enough to have Ponder continue to develop. I haven’t “given up” on him, but I can see why people would think that I have. Selecting RG3 certainly isn’t a “patient wait and see” approach.
I want 2 things from the Vikings: 1) A fair and open competition in pre-season; and 2) an open mind about taking a QB with the #3 pick. I think RG3 is pretty special. I’m not suggesting going out and getting a QB other than Luck or RG3. I’m not even suggesting the Vikings take RG3 over all other options. I like Kalil, and I could like with a super trade that gets us big beef across the O-line. However, I think Ponder has issues that RG3 doesn’t have, and that’s why I’d be happy if the Vikings selected him. But, as I said, I think your approach is pretty reasonable.
"Man invented language to satisfy his deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
:)
Yup I’m very open to a fair open competition. Ponder does have to win it fair and square and although I like Joe, I think Ponder will this time. Hoping he stays healthy this season though of course. Kalil might can greatly reduce Ponders injury chances. Also how would the fair competiton work? 50/50 1st team reps? if thats the case it will be that much difficult for our receivers to get their timing down with one QB.
☠★☪Creator of http:/vikescity.info/ and dedicated DN reader.
by UnBannedVikingholic on Feb 7, 2012 10:18 AM CST via Android app up reply actions
Fair question
I don’t know, but I thought last year’s rotation with Ponder and Webb in the preseason worked pretty well. Webb was the #2 in games 1 and 3. Ponder was the #2 in games 2 and 4. Whatever they do, I just don’t want to see a repeat of the game 4 fiasco. I lost some respect for Frazier and Musgrave as a result.
(BTW, I’m trying out a new picture and signature, but it’s still me… for better or worse).
"Men are creatures with two legs and eight hands. - Jayne Mansfield
by kcskol on Feb 7, 2012 1:06 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Yes he does.
RG3 is a great passer. His ball is just as catchable when comparing drop rates per passes completed, even though Ponder had better talent at WR in college. He has a stronger arm than Ponder and is more accurate, especially when passing beyond 15 yards(watch the tape). I like Ponder, but RG3 is a future phenom. He is better today than Ponder.
I have an honest question for you...
Let’s say Luck/Kalil go #1 and #2. We have the option to take RGIII or trade down to a spot 4-6 and pick up at least another 2nd round pick, probably more.
But we’ll just say we trade the #3 pick for the #6, #38, and a 2nd next year.
For the sake of argument, we’ll say Riley Reiff is available at #6 and we have him graded higher than Jonathan Martin.
The question I have for you is this:
Would you rather have:
1. RGIII, Christian Ponder, the #35 pick, and the terrible O-Line we had last year
OR
2. Christian Ponder, Riley Reiff, the #35 pick, the #38 pick, a 2nd rounder next year, and an improved line from last year.
It’s really that simple. Even if we’d take Reiff at #3, it’s still a team with an improved O-Line, a young, promising QB, and the 2nd rounder to use on WR.
If we took RGIII #3, we’d probably take a guy like Mike Adams in the 2nd, and have a poor O-Line again and no improvements at WR.
But really, if we had the 2 options listed above (and that is probably a very conservative estimate of what we could receive in trade) which would you choose?
I'd take RGIII
In a second. Put Ponder on the trade block and trust that the young players that didn’t play on the line have the talent to improve on the offensive line.
The Vikings are in a rebuilding mode so given the chance to upgrade the QB position at the #3 to what I feel may actually be an elite QB I take him and let the rest of the chips fall where they may. Who knows maybe a Washington, Miami or another QB needy team offer up there pick for Ponder after we took RGIII and we are able to take the OL you talk about.
by VikesFanInTulsa on Feb 6, 2012 2:22 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
In all fairness...
The vikes will improve their line via free agency whether or not they draft OL help( i believe they will). In addition, there will be marked improvement from their rookie class as they adjust to playing in the NFL. If RG3 is available, you TAKE him even if Kalil is on the board if cleveland doesn’t pony up to trade and afford MN the opportunity to take Kalil and gain picks.
So let's see.
You refer to “you guys” and didn’t mean to include me. Okay.
When you started ranting and cussing (for whatever reason), I think you started behaving “freaking hysterically”… and not in a funny sort of way.
This is a site devoted to stuff about the Vikings. It is followed by people who are devoted to the Vikings. To suggest that discussions of draft options and the relative merits of QB options ought to be off limits is silly. And besides, it’s not like I suggested the Vikings should draft a Division 3 school QB to give Ponder a run for his money. We’re talking about RG3 here.
"Man invented language to satisfy his deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
Seemed to me like you were saying...
… it was off limits because you had heard it a million times. Were you suggesting something different?
"Man invented language to satisfy his deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
You should go back and read your posts then
There is a difference between "off limits" and heard it a million times before. Don’t you?
“Don’t you?” wasn’t intended to be argumentative? Again, okay.
Is it because I didn’t say pretty please?
That wasn’t intended to be argumentative either? Hmmm.
And this one?
No says you have to slow down to look are a car crash either
But people still and I bet you are one of them. Right?
I believe you brought the argumentative tone to this discussion. And instead of a simple “yes” perhaps you can enlighten me by splitting the hair that divides “off limits” from “don’t bring up a topic because I’ve heard it a million times already.”
"Man invented language to satisfy his deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
by kcskol on Feb 5, 2012 9:31 PM CST up reply actions 3 recs
I see
Off limits implies, never to hear or speak of something, even for a first time. Heard it a million times is self explanatory, or so I thought. It is not “off limits”, it is already said and heard. If people like to repeat the same thing over and over, hey knock yourselves out. Though is the opinion of people who say, heard it, not warranted or wanted? It’s not like the topic is given a new twist or anything.
And when I said you are being argumentative
I meant when you want me to discern between “off limits” and “heard it a million times”. I thought you knew what I meant between the two.
Exactly
The simple fact that if a person feels compelled to come into a thread about RG3 when it is time to discuss draft eligible players and say they heard it “a million times before” is proof enough that they are trying to control the conversation (i.e, end it).
It is sad actually. But I will take a coach like Mike Shanahan’s opinion over any poster. He said during the Senior Bowl practices when he was on the air that unless a team had a top 5 or 6 QB then they must continue to keep looking. He said the worst case is you trade someone.
That is exactly right. Whether or not Ponder or Webb have had enough time or talent around them to show that they maybe could be that player is irrelevant. The Vikings are in a position to possibly get one of the top 2 QBs to come out in a long time. They must seriously consider it for the future of that position.
They may decide they do not want to do it and that is fine by me.
But now is the time to discuss it on it’s merits. I do not recall anyone saying draft RG3 during the season although it may have been brought up. I know there was talk of Luck.
I refuse to allow a poster to control what I post. I am not bashing Ponder and did not say he was bad. He was like most rookie QBs. I said what my concerns were and they are legitimate. That is all.
by MarkSP18 on Feb 5, 2012 9:15 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
Perhaps murgo was born with "MCS"...(i.e. "Mall Cop Syndrome").
You don't tug on Superman's cape
You don't spit into the wind
You don't pull the mask of the Spiderman
And you don't trash talk about him
by REVENGE4WEBB on Feb 5, 2012 9:19 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
Well If they take a QB at #3 and dont do anything with the O-Line
They will more than likely be picking 1 or 2 next year.
They'll definitely do something about the O-line this offseason
It doesn’t have to be in the first round of the draft — though Kalil at #3 would be sweeeet. Free agency and 2nd and later rounds will provide options for O-line upgrades.
"Man invented language to satisfy his deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
Just reading this now
Hilarious and entertaining discussion. I’m with you though kc but if we can get Kalil I’m will to roll with Ponder and if he can stay healthy… we’ll see.
Build up your weaknesses until they become your strong points." --Knute Rockne
Wow I'm not really sure this is possible
kcskol, MarkSP180 and I agree on something. Did I just see four horses ride by? Was that the trump? Who am I going to argue with.
Take RG III, third picks are rare and top two QB’s are worth your time. Getting the best QB you can will be something that will elevate your team more than any other position. I know Ponder had a poor line, but I wasn’t really happy with the way he fell apart at the end last year, and I still don’t think Webb has all the tools to be a top QB in this league.
The Vikes aren't in a remodeling or reconstruction they are in a burn the place down and start praying they don't mimic the Lions rebuilding process.
Give me a sec...
…I need to take a quick look for flying pigs. :-)
"Man invented language to satisfy his deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
If you see one park your car in your garage...
It ain’t pretty.
The Vikes aren't in a remodeling or reconstruction they are in a burn the place down and start praying they don't mimic the Lions rebuilding process.
We Draft RG3
and then trade him to the highest bidder
I'd take Kalil,
or trade down for someone who wants RGIII. I really, really don’t think we’re taking RGIII. Not that he’s not a good kid, but why not just use that to our advantage and get some extra picks? It’d be stupid to throw away Ponder after a year like last year with such inferior talent. But I get that it’s just for fun, and it’d be fun to see him in purple.
"Courage is resistance to fear, mastery of fear, not absence of fear." -Mark Twain
horrible idea
to give up on a QB they spent an entire off season evaluating (they didn’t spend it in off season free agency etc …
on top of that, behind a line that is 2 years older w/o help .. .you know the same line that ended iron man brett favre’s career
plus no offseason work, no development, no receiver chemistry, no time to throw the ball.
the vikings will NOT draft a QB in the first round, you can count on it. (w/ the exception that both indy and st. louis pass on Luck, which i find that highly unlikely)
when asked by Dan Patrick if his name alluded to not making quick decisions in the pocket, Ponder calmly replied "As crazy as it sounds, my mom's maiden name is actually Superbowlwinner. All one word"
Interesting thought, I'm surprised this subject has never come up before (snicker).
Well then, having Griffin an Webb at qb would clearly be pretty awesome. I wonder what we would do with Ponder then. Does anyone think he has any real trade value? He might be a good safety, considering how athletic he is. I would start getting him reps at safety right away, so we don’t waste his athetic talent just sitting on the bench. I’m sure he would excel there and probably make the hall of fame, since he has a degree in sports management, you know. We might have to change his number, I wonder if #28 is available yet.
Seriously though, I don’t think Spielman would even take Luck if he were available, I think he’s going to pick an o-lineman with whatever first pick we end up with. I wouldn’t be surprised to see him take a trade down. I hope he does and takes 2 o-linemen with the top two picks we end up with.
I would be psyched to see Griffin win the rookie of the year, though. Some team is going to get a nice player. I wonder where the best situation is for him. I really would hate to see him go to Cleveland now that they have Professor Douche Bag at offensive coordinator. It’ll be crazy is Jacksonville snags him.
You don't tug on Superman's cape
You don't spit into the wind
You don't pull the mask of the Spiderman
And you don't trash talk about him
Prediction
Cleveland gets RGIII…makes Childress look like a genius, and Childress ends up with another head coaching gig down the line, because people think he was responsible for developing McNabb and RGIII, and has some head coaching experience. What a laugh that will be.
Ponder. Peterson. Percy. Purple Perfection.
Insulting Childress, while fun, may not be the best strategy.
Bear in mind that during his worst season, he had 3 wins, including a divisional win, before he was fired. That’s better than our whole season last year. Frazier is 0-8 as a head coach against the NFC North so far.
The complete failure that is this team I will lay at Childress's feet
His complete lack of future vision has turned this team from a contender to a joke in a measly two years.
The Vikes aren't in a remodeling or reconstruction they are in a burn the place down and start praying they don't mimic the Lions rebuilding process.
I couldn't disagree more...
look at what Harbaugh did for San Fran this year. The vikes would have won more with quality coaching that knows how to get the most out of their players. The Vikes were one of the worst coached teams. Extremely poor halftime adjustments and misuse of talent. Frazier was a complete failure!
Insulting Childress, while fun, may not be the best strategy.
Well, insulting Childress is waaaaay more than just “fun”,
and insulting him is not a “strategy”…it is a “lifestyle”.
You don't tug on Superman's cape
You don't spit into the wind
You don't pull the mask of the Spiderman
And you don't trash talk about him
by REVENGE4WEBB on Feb 6, 2012 10:15 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
This
More interesting in all of this is how history has reached forward again to the colts.
They have a choice between two topped ranked Qb’s in a draft. The last time they won out as we all know the Peyton/Lief. Now again. I would not be surprised to see RG go to the Colts. As far as the Vikes go…It is NOT the player, it is part of the build they do not need and definately should not do as far taking another QB. Alot on this site has gone into whether or not Ponder is this or not. Ive begun to understand that some here simply have this idea that it only takes the first starting year to see if you have the QBOTF. And in that first year the QB should make no mistakes and basicly carry an absolutely depleted team and carry them to a first round of playoffs. This mentality is the quik fix and not football reality. The situation the Vikings are in could not be anymore dier as it is crystal clear. Long term coaching positions are in question as is the time for Mr. Spielman. You get a reprieve when making sound descions, even when some do not go as planned. Where there is no reprieve is where you make a descion that did not need to be made or a poor one. What we will see in the super bowl this year is a QB in Eli that is not over the top as Brady,Peyton, Brees and for some even Rogers. We will see a QB that has an incrediable on the road record and can play well when his team plays well. I see just that in Ponder. The idea that every SB attaining QB has to be elite or hype is fodder. Its amazing how some here, one second are in the Webb camp and a few posts later are all in the RG camp. It is that type of knee jerkie puddle jumping the Vikings need to avoid to even begin to head in a positive direction. The Vikes will stay a course of conservative consistancy with offensive rebuilding around Ponder. Securing the Oline while also getting him some go to tools. If you consider what we see in Fraziers demeanour of being soft spoken not a reactor and one of patience we know thats what he will reflect. Spielman if you have read any of his interviews is much the same…he states on picking playesr that they have a window ..a maturity time line of growth. Reflecting again patience. Basicly there is not an over the tiop over hype type of staff on board. So we will pretty much see that reflected in alot of how they go about rebuilding. Some still will want to say the Vikes are only a year or two out of being contenders. If it was a few tweaking spots to fill this would be true. But the reality is more 3 to 4 to be a sound .500 team. And for those that keep spewing the NFL is so fininky now a days that any team can turn it around in a year is not again seeing reality. Look up the last 14 years of teams getting to the Super Bowl you will see 7 of the 14 years were owned by the Pats and Steelers from there you have teams going back twice and winning one of the two. And finaly many a coach and his staff have made huge careers by taking a team as depleted as the Vikings and turing them around over time to be soundly built consistant winners and with that I think many on this staff will be looking to keep long careers.
@}-----You've been Touched-----{@
by Velvetouch on Feb 4, 2012 10:48 PM CST reply actions 3 recs
Appreciate you not naming names. :-)
Alot on this site has gone into whether or not Ponder is this or not. Ive begun to understand that some here simply have this idea that it only takes the first starting year to see if you have the QBOTF.
In a season you can see a lot, but I don’t think anyone was expecting miracles. Two things I am looking for that Ponder has not been able to show are the ability to make the NFL throws (i.e. out routes and deep balls) and the ability to show a general trend of improvement. Ponder hasn’t done that.
And in that first year the QB should make no mistakes and basicly carry an absolutely depleted team and carry them to a first round of playoffs. This mentality is the quik fix and not football reality.
That’s exactly my point about what happened to Webb. He plays two games at the end of 2010 for a depleted Vikings team and as a result he’s viewed by some as trash unworthy of a QB slot on the team.
Its amazing how some here, one second are in the Webb camp and a few posts later are all in the RG camp.
I still like Webb… a lot. But I also don’t know if he’s the QBotF. He’s never had the chance to compete for that spot and to get the organizational support to see if he’s the guy. I happen to think the Vikings would have won more games this season had they put Webb in as QB but that’s a pretty low threshold. I’m okay with the idea of Ponder and Webb duking it out in preseason to see who ends up being the starter next year. However, I also happen to think that RG3 is very impressive. If he’s available at #3, I think the Vikings should seriously consider taking him. That doesn’t mean that I think Webb isn’t capable of being a starting QB. I like what i see from Webb and want to see more. However, I think RG3 is too good to ignore just because the Vikings used last year’s #12 pick on Ponder.
The Vikes will stay a course of conservative consistancy with offensive rebuilding around Ponder.
I agree with you here. I think the Vikings will pass on RG3 even if he’s available for the taking. However, I think they will do this in large part because they don’t want to be viewed as having wasted last year’s #1 pick. The front office is human like everyone else. They don’t want to be embarrassed. They pretty much proved that in the 4th preseason game of last year after it was clear that Webb had outplayed Ponder through the first 3 preseason games. Once on the field, they didn’t let Webb pass the ball in the 4th game. They spent Webb’s time on the field calling hand offs to a running back who didn’t make the team.
RG3 is special in a way that Ponder is not. Ponder may be fine, but I’m sufficiently worried that I would like to see RG3 picked up by the Vikings. I’d also be happy with Kalil, because he offers a level of capability and stablity at another very important position on the team. Regardless, I want to see an open QB competition in preseason and for the Vikings to let merit win out over pedigree.
One last point: You mention Eli Manning as the sort of non-elite QB that proves that you don’t need an elite QB to get to the Superbowl. You compare him to Ponder. The fact is that Eli and Ponder are at opposite ends of the spectrum in one very important category. Eli has a strong arm, and Ponder does not. A case in point is the fact that Eli threw and completed more deep balls in 2011 than any other QB in the league. As I said before, the absence of the ability to be consistently effective throwing deep and to the side lines is one of the things that worries me about Ponder.
"Man invented language to satisfy his deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
by kcskol on Feb 5, 2012 9:51 AM CST up reply actions 6 recs
Ponder shouldn't start in 2012
they don’t want to be viewed as having wasted last year’s #1 pick. The front office is human like everyone else. They don’t want to be embarrassed. They pretty much proved that in the 4th preseason game of last year after it was clear that Webb had outplayed Ponder through the first 3 preseason games
This. Fact is Webb reads the pocket pressure and the pre-snap defenses better than Ponder. He should, he has a year on him. Because of this Ponder takes some nasty sacks and that is why he was beat up at the end of the year. I am just not comfortable going into 2012 with ponder starting Game1. Just assuming he will pan out isn’t the answer. He needs more time and work than Webb I think, which isn’t saying he is bad or anything.
If RG3 is there and the vikes pick him I would be ecstatic. I think you could find a way to shop Ponder(or even Webb) around for picks and/or a way to trade back up into the 1st and get an answer at LT.
I couldn’t see this happening either, not the way ponder was gift wrapped the #2 spot. This team favors draft position over quality of play all over the field.
by dirtyplay on Feb 5, 2012 12:52 PM CST up reply actions 3 recs
Re/ Fact is Webb reads the pocket pressure and the pre-snap defenses better than Ponder. He should, he has a year on him.
Actually Ponder should be more seasoned than Webb. Ponder faced more elite competition in college. Webb attended a small school university of Alabama Birmingham (UAB). Second, Ponder has been receiving first string repetitions. Webb may have a year on Ponder, but Webb has been stuck running the scout team and lining up at receiver. Ponder is the one with more seasoning. Both quarterbacks need more time to develop, and its not going to matter who the quarterback is until they upgrade that porous offensive line. We know the O-line needs to be upgraded. Give our young quarterbacks a chance, and let’s have a fair competition.
Interesting perspective
And Ponder was supposed to be the most “Pro Ready QB” in the draft too…
I hope they use 2 of the top 3 picks on a Guard and a tackle. I would be plenty happy.
We got it....
You have a man crush on RG3. You see something ‘special’ after watching all of the highlights on SportsCenter after the Heisman Award Show. You have fantasies of Him doing all of those fantastic things in a Viking Uniform behind the same O-line we had last year. Of course that is not realistic and will hurt the team next year. You refuse to listen to all the stats that show that it takes a few years to develop a QBOTF. So you are willing to throw CP and Webb under the bus with absolutely no PROOF that RG3 will be any better at the Pro level then either of them. I would prefer the safe and sane route, fix the line, gets some targets, repair the defense and then if Ponder/Webb prove to be not up to the job then look at a new QBOTF. At least then that QB can step into a complete team.
#3 picks don't come along every year
And its more about Ponder’s question marks. At this point in time Ponder has just as many as a highly touted rookie like RG3. We know Ponder’s issues, and he did not play well in 2011. He is probably not going to play very well as a starter in 2012. Why not accept that and take a chance at upgrading the QB position right now if there is the chance?
by dirtyplay on Feb 5, 2012 1:17 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
Question marks
Eli, Rodgers, Aikman and so on all had huge questions marks. Huge question marks. Rodgers was feared to be a bust the first two years and thank God for Favre that he was allowed to be remolded into a good QB. If he was thrown into the Vikings situation, he may not be playing today. Let’s move on and discuss reality instead of this fantasy crapola.
Let’s move on and discuss reality instead of this fantasy crapola.
Nobody is making you read this or even comment to the fanpost.
You don't tug on Superman's cape
You don't spit into the wind
You don't pull the mask of the Spiderman
And you don't trash talk about him
by REVENGE4WEBB on Feb 5, 2012 2:34 PM CST up reply actions 3 recs
Exactly
At this time of year everything is fantasy.
But if you ask would they take Andrew Luck what will they say then?
by MarkSP18 on Feb 5, 2012 2:43 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
Luck is different
And even I entertained that for a few seconds when we realistically had a chance to get number 1 overall. What we’re doing now is lunacy, not fantasy.
What have the Vikings done?
They have done nothing. We are just fans on an internet board discussing different draft options.
Seems to me that you are trying to control the conversation of other people. There are forms of government that do that too.
What are you trying to do?
It really is simple. If you do not like the talk then do not post in the thread.
by MarkSP18 on Feb 5, 2012 7:23 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Tell you what discussing RG III is way better than rehashing the Zombie topic of Ponder v Webb
Trust me that one will come back (just like all zombies do)
The Vikes aren't in a remodeling or reconstruction they are in a burn the place down and start praying they don't mimic the Lions rebuilding process.
It will so long as they are both on the team...
…and the back up performs better than the starter.
"Man invented language to satisfy his deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
by kcskol on Feb 6, 2012 9:22 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Raises gun
Shoots it in the head.
The Vikes aren't in a remodeling or reconstruction they are in a burn the place down and start praying they don't mimic the Lions rebuilding process.
No says you have to slow down to look are a car crash either
But people still and I bet you are one of them. Right?
No, it sounds like you are just making things up again.
You don't tug on Superman's cape
You don't spit into the wind
You don't pull the mask of the Spiderman
And you don't trash talk about him
by REVENGE4WEBB on Feb 5, 2012 3:18 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Cause I don’t feel like bashing Ponder at every turn?
Then YOU don’t have to bash him in every turn.
As for me, I don’t care to gloss over facts and march in lock step with your narrow little view of how someone should express themselves. Are you a fascist?
You don't tug on Superman's cape
You don't spit into the wind
You don't pull the mask of the Spiderman
And you don't trash talk about him
by REVENGE4WEBB on Feb 5, 2012 8:48 PM CST up reply actions 3 recs
"Are you a fascist?"
Why yes, yes I am. How on earth did you see right through me? I though I was being so clever in my secret attempt to mind control you anti-Ponder people. I’m shocked that I couldn’t get that past you and your keen mind.
So, bashing Ponder equals open minded free spirit. Saying to give Ponder a legitimate chance equals “narrow little view” and “march in lock step”? I love how you try and twist what I have said in order to bring out the “fascist” in me. Lol
Back for more, eh? (those are your words below).
…But I’ll take your advice and not bother reading any more of the super duper RG threads any more.
P.S. regarding this Griffin thread….wait, who introduced the idea that “ponder sucks ass”…why that was you alone, murgo.
You don't tug on Superman's cape
You don't spit into the wind
You don't pull the mask of the Spiderman
And you don't trash talk about him
by REVENGE4WEBB on Feb 5, 2012 9:35 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Oh, you trying to control where I comment?
I thought that was a fascist thing to do? I felt it important enough to respond to your tripe, so I did.
not at all...comment away.
But you contradict yourself a lot.
You don't tug on Superman's cape
You don't spit into the wind
You don't pull the mask of the Spiderman
And you don't trash talk about him
by REVENGE4WEBB on Feb 5, 2012 9:42 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Maybe you should read what I say more carefully
instead of interjecting your own biases into it. Then it won’t appear so contradictory to you.
you said you weren't going to read or comment...
but you continue to do so, as you have every right to do. But that is a contradiction.
You don't tug on Superman's cape
You don't spit into the wind
You don't pull the mask of the Spiderman
And you don't trash talk about him
by REVENGE4WEBB on Feb 5, 2012 9:50 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
That's what I said, you have every right to.
You really shouldn’t take it so personally.
You don't tug on Superman's cape
You don't spit into the wind
You don't pull the mask of the Spiderman
And you don't trash talk about him
by REVENGE4WEBB on Feb 5, 2012 9:54 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I'm not
I’m stating facts, with obvious sarcasm. Again, do not interject your biases into my words and thoughts.
But, you are the one doing that.
Kepp talking….how ’bout that Griffin guy?
You don't tug on Superman's cape
You don't spit into the wind
You don't pull the mask of the Spiderman
And you don't trash talk about him
by REVENGE4WEBB on Feb 5, 2012 10:00 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
But I do have the right to
change my mind? Right? It appears there are certain unwritten rules that I am unaware of here.
Only you would know that.
You don't tug on Superman's cape
You don't spit into the wind
You don't pull the mask of the Spiderman
And you don't trash talk about him
by REVENGE4WEBB on Feb 5, 2012 9:54 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
#3 picks
If Ponder sucks ass as some think, then we’ll be seeing a few more #3 picks so, again, let’s move on.
Who said "Ponder sucks ass"?
That sounds like a really strange habit, I wonder if the “personnel director” asked him if he did that in their pre-draft interviews.
“Um, Christian, we don’t allow “ass-sucking” in OUR locker room…you got that?"
You don't tug on Superman's cape
You don't spit into the wind
You don't pull the mask of the Spiderman
And you don't trash talk about him
by REVENGE4WEBB on Feb 5, 2012 2:50 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Well it was allowed under Childress's tenure...
The Vikes aren't in a remodeling or reconstruction they are in a burn the place down and start praying they don't mimic the Lions rebuilding process.
I heard the catering sucked ass under Chilly's tenure.
According to my good friend Randy, anyway.
You don't tug on Superman's cape
You don't spit into the wind
You don't pull the mask of the Spiderman
And you don't trash talk about him
by REVENGE4WEBB on Feb 6, 2012 10:23 PM CST up reply actions
You're getting slightly hysterical and projecting a bit there.
You have a man crush on RG3.
That’s your conclusion? I haven’t seen the highlights you are referring to, but I have seen RG3 and his stats.
You refuse to listen to all the stats that show that it takes a few years to develop a QBOTF.
I’m quite happy to give a QB time. In fact, I’d be perfectly okay with the Vikings not starting RG3 if they draft him. I’m okay with him riding the pines behind Ponder/Webb if that’s what they decide is best.
So you are willing to throw CP and Webb under the bus with absolutely no PROOF that RG3 will be any better at the Pro level then either of them.
Maybe you are a bit late to the party on this one, but I’m a pretty big fan of Webb. And as for Ponder, I think he’ll improve his game with more experiience (i.e. limit the mistakes, see more of the field from the pocket, etc). But unlike some others, I do not think a “weight training” arm strength regime is going to get him a NFL arm that can reliably throw fast, accurate deep balls and out routes. And that is a liability that I don’t see him overcoming with more experience.
As for your statement that there’s no proof RG3 will be better as a Pro QB, I think that’s an odd statement to make. Of course, there’s no proof. He hasn’t yet played in the NFL. However, he’s exciting a lot of NFL teams for a reason. And he’s had a pretty amazing college career. I think most NFL GMs and scouts would be pretty happy to have Luck and/or RG3 on their teams even without the PROOF you seem to demand.
A team is built piece by piece, and yes, the Vikings have a lot of needs across the bredth of the team. The most important piece however is QB. The Vikings have a shot at an exceptional QB at #3. They might not get that shot, as other teams are likely to push very hard to get Luck and RG3 at #1 and #2. If they get that shot however, they’d be fools not to seriously consider taking him. RG3 will not substantially change the Vikings fortunes in 2012 IMO, but I think it puts them in a much stronger position at the QB position for the future. If the Vikings get Kalil instead, I’d still be pretty happy with that pick. If Kalil’s gone and the Vikings pass on RG3 for Blackmon, I’d be disappointed.
"Man invented language to satisfy his deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
by kcskol on Feb 5, 2012 1:32 PM CST up reply actions 3 recs
K i agree with
alot of your posts and continue to learn some perspective to the game from many I did not name..I guess my take is if we look at the peoples in charge and you see a pattern of operendi it is normaly what they will produce so yeah I think we agree the Vikes will stay the course and that could actually reveal a core problem. I didnt clarify cause i had much to say and as you know I can get off site at times:) But id not mean a comparrison of the persons in Eli and Ponder I meant in the sence that some do post the QB’s that are considered elite to what attributes they see as need in a QB. I was only saying that a QB that is not courted so much as the “IN” Qb can get to the bowl by playing well when the team plays well. As I dont think Ponder showed bust I dont think he showed what could or could not be in 5 years. I did like what i seen when he first took over.. a QB that plays well enough when he has a sound team. On Webb I think he has great athletic ability that is explosive and he is the type that will put a team on his back to try and get it done with that athletic ability. But (there is always that dang but) I dont see the Vikes going away from Ponder nor do I see them doing over the top moves. I would think they can see that even though Ziggy stays hands off he prolly has made it clear its either a .500 season this and the next or its staff blow up time.
@}-----You've been Touched-----{@
Sounds pretty reasonable to me.
I have little doubt that Ponder will show some poise and judgment improvements in his 2nd season. My concern is that teams will play him tougher given the limitations of his arm. I now know you weren’t comparing Eli and Ponder, but I think last night’s game and commentary provided a useful case in point. Eli’s deep ball down the left sideline on the final drive was a thing of beauty and was a crucial play on the drive. His ability to throw that ball also made it more difficult for the Patriots to commit to stopping the underneath throws. Ponder’s inability to throw a consistent deep ball and out route (which Eli did all night) is my big concern. It’s why I’d seriously consider taking my shot at RG3 if the opportunity presented itself and Kalil was gone already. Anyway, I get your perspective. It’s fair.
Lastly, you raise a really interesting point. I wonder what Ziggy’s threshold is for next year. I kind of think that it’s below .500 in part because the team has some serious issues, and in part, because I think Ziggy wants to just focus on getting a new stadium. Having to manage a front office overhaul in addition to the stadium hunt would be tough. I also assume he has outside business interests that he has to manage as well. I almost wonder if 5 wins would keep everyone safe at this point. Just a guess of course.
"Man invented language to satisfy his deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
Agreed
yeah I definatley agree on the Ziggy take. I left it at .500 as to not start a ’Your crazy" unleashing from everyone. LOL. What ever they do I just hope the due diligence is there as I really think the team is vulnerable right now to what we saw in Detroits epic years of basement dwelling and cleavelands on going struggle. Optimisticly though, with so many needs now the Vikes cant really stay in denial so this all could be a wonderful thing.
@}-----You've been Touched-----{@
Take RGIII and sell to highest bidder???
Please do not do this Vikes. You get way more value trading the #3 pick than the player taken. Once the Vikes take RGIII the teams will have to give up less because they know we DEF want to trade him. Trading the pick has teams bidding against each other to move up
Straight Cash Homey
by MOSScomeBACK2vikes on Feb 5, 2012 7:35 AM CST reply actions
This
http://www.nfl.com/videos/minnesota-vikings/09000d5d8266f19c/Vikings-must-draft-an-O-lineman
"Never take your eyes off of your opponent…even when you bow."
Everything they said is true.
The Vikings need serious help up front. And Kalil would be a great pick for the Vikings. If he’s not there and the Vikings took RG3 at #3, I’d be pretty excited I think. If Kalil is there at #3, it’s because someone else moved up to grab RG3.
"Man invented language to satisfy his deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
Man I wonder what Green Bay could have gotten for Flynn if they had traded him
RG III, Ponder and Webb woulg leave us very deep at QB. A couple of years from now I would see us in the position of the Eagles with Kolb or Green Bay last year with Flynn. Teams will make deals for back up QB’s we’ve seen it happen more often lately and I think it’s crazy to think we’re not going to see any advantage from Ponder in the future (if we have to trade him) if we don’t maybe it’s because Ponder just isn’t that good.
QB is the most important spot on the team, getting the best one you can should be a no brainer.
The Vikes aren't in a remodeling or reconstruction they are in a burn the place down and start praying they don't mimic the Lions rebuilding process.
by Grime on Feb 6, 2012 9:26 AM CST reply actions 3 recs
Flying pig alert...
…and a rec.
:-)
"Man invented language to satisfy his deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
How is great quaterbacks going to help?
When we provide no chance at all to protect them?
- You don’t draft a QB in the first round 2 years in a row! . NO WAY.
- We have to upgrade our O-line, our secondary and our wideouts! Otherwise no quaterback, no matter how good, will have a chance to avoid any sack, hold any lead or throw to some open receivers
Oh nooooah yoooouaa diddann’t?!?!
Did you just bookend this post with comments at both ends?
:-)
"Man invented language to satisfy his deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
Oh nooooah yoooouaa diddann’t?!?!
Did you just bookend this post with comments at both ends?
:-)
"Man invented language to satisfy his deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
50 years of Heisman winners
1962: Terry Baker (Oregon State) – Retired lawyer living in Portland, OR (age 69)
1963: Roger Staubach (Navy) – Pro Football Hall of Famer for Cowboys sold real estate business for $613 million in 2008; resides in Dallas (age 68)
1964: John Huarte (Notre Dame) – CEO of Arizona Tile Supply in Tempe, AZ (age 66)
1965: Mike Garrett (USC) – Served as USC athletic director from 1993 until 2010, resigning in July amid scrutiny over football and men’s basketball scandals (age 66)
1966: Steve Spurrier (Florida) – Former Florida and current South Carolina head football coach (age 65)
1967: Gary Beban (UCLA) – President of real estate company, CB Richard Ellis Services Inc. in Northbrook, IL (age 64)
1968: O.J. Simpson (USC) – Pro Football Hall of Famer serving at least 9 years in Lovelock, NV prison for numerous felonies, including armed robbery and kidnapping (age 63)
1969: Steve Owens (Oklahoma) – CEO of real estate company, Steve Owens & Associates, in Norman, OK (age 62)
1970: Jim Plunkett (Stanford) – Raiders analyst and owns Coors distributorship in Stockton, CA (age 62)
1971: Pat Sullivan (Auburn) – Samford head football coach since 2007 (age 60)
1972: Johnny Rodgers (Nebraska) – Played in CFL and currently works with youth in Omaha, NE (age 59)
1973: John Cappelletti (Penn State) – Partner in AlphaBio pharmaceutical company in Laguna Niguel, CA (age 58)
1974 & 1975: Archie Griffin (Ohio State) – President of Ohio State Alumni Association (age 56)
1976: Tony Dorsett (Pittsburgh) – Owns Tony Dorsett Foods specializing in barbecue sauces; resides in Frisco, TX (age 56)
1977: Earl Campbell (Texas) – Assistant to vice president of student affairs at University of Texas (age 55)
1978: Billy Sims (Oklahoma) – Owns chain of Billy Sims BBQ restaurants in Oklahoma, most recently apologized in December 2008 for screaming "Boomer!" 11 times after Sam Bradford won Heisman (age 55)
1979: Charles White (USC) – Rehabbed drug addict works at USC as computer service engineer and resides in Long Beach, CA (age 52)
1980: George Rogers (South Carolina) – Runs George Rogers Foundation providing scholarships to kids and resides in Columbia, SC (age 51)
1981: Marcus Allen (USC) – Analyst for NFL Network and resides in Carlsbad, CA (age 50)
1982:Herschel Walker(Georgia) – Founder and CEO of meat processor company Renaissance Man Food Services Inc.; also involved in MMA and resides in Dallas, TX (age 48)
1983: Mike Rozier (Nebraska) – Stay-at-home dad living in Sicklerville, NJ (age 49)
1984: Doug Flutie (Boston College) – Analyst for Versus’ coverage of United Football League and resides in Natick, MA (age 47)
1985: Bo Jackson (Auburn) – Founder and investor in Burr Ridge Bank and Trust in suburban Chicago (age 47)
1986: Vinny Testaverde (Miami) – Retired in 2008 and resides in Odessa, FL (age 46)
1987: Tim Brown (Notre Dame) – Owns Tim Brown Racing LLC in NASCAR and lives in DeSoto, TX (age 44)
1988: Barry Sanders (Oklahoma State) – Retired in 1998 and resides in West Bloomfield, MI; son Barry Sanders Jr. is a prep star in Oklahoma City (age 42)
1989: Andre Ware (Houston) – College football analyst for ESPN and Texans radio announcer, residing in Sugar Land, TX (age 42)
1990: Ty Detmer (BYU) – Head coach for St. Andrew’s Episcopal School in Austin, TX (age 42)
1991: Desmond Howard (Michigan) – College football analyst for ESPN residing in Boca Raton, FL (age 40)
1992: Gino Torretta (Miami) – Works for asset management firm GAMCO Investors, Inc. in Miami (age 40)
1993: Charlie Ward (Florida State) – Head football coach for Westbury Christian H.S. in Houston, TX (age 39)
1994: Rashaan Salaam (Colorado) – Promotes martial arts fights in China and resides in San Diego, CA (age 35)
1995: Eddie George (Ohio State) – Retired in 2004, graduated with MBA from Northwestern Business School in December 2009 and will work for Sirius Satellite’s college station (age 36)
1996: Danny Wuerffel (Florida) – Works for Hope Street Ministries in New Orleans, LA (age 36)
1997: Charles Woodson (Michigan) – Member of Green Bay Packers, starting corner and 2009 NFL Defensive Player of the Year (age 33)
1998: Ricky Williams (Texas) – Member of Miami Dolphins and shares backfield with Ronnie Brown (age 33)
1999: Ron Dayne (Wisconsin) – Retired and now residing in Waunakee, WI; owns gym named Champion Styles Athletics (age 32)
2000: Chris Weinke (Florida State) – Runs IMG’s John Madden Football Academy in Bradenton, FL (age 38)
2001: Eric Crouch (Nebraska) – Owns playground equipment business called "Crouch Recreation" in Omaha, NE and serves as college football analyst for Versus (age 31)
2002: Carson Palmer (USC) – Member of Cincinnati Bengals and starting QB (age 30)
2003: Jason White (Oklahoma) – Owns memorabilia stores in Norman and Oklahoma City (age 30)
2004: Matt Leinart (USC) – Cut by Arizona Cardinals in September 2010 and now a back-up for Houston Texans (age 27)
2005: Reggie Bush (USC) – Member of New Orleans Saints, winning Super Bowl in 2010 (age 25)
2006: Troy Smith (Ohio State) – Member of San Francisco 49ers (age 26)
2007: Tim Tebow (Florida) – Rookie for Denver Broncos (age 23)
2008: Sam Bradford (Oklahoma) – No. 1 overall pick in 2010 NFL Draft now rookie QB for St. Louis Rams (age 21)
2009: Mark Ingram (Alabama) – Reigning Heisman winner and national champion now junior RB for Crimson Tide
Winners that had some accomplishments in the NFL in bold and QBs with accomplishments are in bold and italics.
Another day, another perspective and I’ll put my money where my mouth is and try a different approach to this RG infatuation thing. Looking back at all the Heisman winners, the odds are stacked against super, duper athletic RG to do anything in the NFL. By my count, out of 50 years of winners, 5 QBs are worth mentioning so far. Staubach and Plunkett are no brainers. Flutie accomplished a lot but never won a SB. Carson Palmer is certainly a generous addition to the list, but at least he’s gone to a couple of pro bowls as did Testaverde but that’s about it. Most of the winners with NFL accomplishments are RBs and WRs. Most of the QBs did not do anything. Most Heisman winners do not do anything. The recent list of QBs is not very encouraging with Bradshaw being the most recent and there are questions about him already. So, what does this information tell us about RG? It is not conclusive, but as I said, the odds are stacked against him to be successful, or in Palmers and Testaverdes case, servicable.
So what I would love to see is for Indy to fall for all this RG lovefest hype and take him. Then I would be jumping up and down for the Vikings to take Luck and even trade up one spot with St Louis to nab him. That is a more “reasonable” expectation from my perspective. Not this RG waste of time, because I am willing to bet he will disappoint. See? I’m not a fascist! :)
Problem with players who rely to much on their athletic ability in college is that they run into allthe other freaks in teh NFL
However, I don’t think RG III is just a physical freak. I believe he understands how the game is played. Honestly, it will be interesting to see how this guy rolls through the combine. However, if he nails the combine then I would be completely for picking him up.
The Vikes aren't in a remodeling or reconstruction they are in a burn the place down and start praying they don't mimic the Lions rebuilding process.
by Grime on Feb 6, 2012 4:31 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
There are a million variables on why some do well and others do not
Brains, athleticism, luck, team, coaching, supporting cast, type of offense, drive and determination (work ethic) just to name a few. Montana falling to another team and coach may have been a nobody.
by Murgo on Feb 6, 2012 5:18 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
thank you
I was talking about one in particular. If you’d like to talk about that one please continue.
I’m pretty sure everyone understands that failure is almost never from a single cause.
The Vikes aren't in a remodeling or reconstruction they are in a burn the place down and start praying they don't mimic the Lions rebuilding process.
by Grime on Feb 7, 2012 12:23 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I'll ignore and forgo the sarcasm
Which one in particular were you speaking of? So we don’t have to go on guessing.
Also, I will disagree that
failure is almost never from a single cause
at the the most competitive level considering that is what we are discussing. The reason is people who have multiple deficiencies rarely make it to the highest level, then fail. They are washed out way before that. Though for the public at large, yes, failure is usually multifactorial.
I was actually thinking that everyone has multiple deficiencies
they just get harder to spot as people get better and better. Character, speed, strength, ability to play at speed, hands, understanding of the game, ability to see the field, chutzpah. There are a lot of variables to a player and the better ones still have these variables and can be NFL deficient in them.]
So while some one might be great at everything but one thing I don’t think that’s the majority of the case most times. This is an educated opinion though. Just the tippy top those deficiencies that weren’t noticeable when your one major boost (in this case athleticism) was over shadowing the rest.
The Vikes aren't in a remodeling or reconstruction they are in a burn the place down and start praying they don't mimic the Lions rebuilding process.
This is so skewed
There are so many great QB’s that did not win the Heismann. so I guess we can say had he not won the Heismann his odds are better of being a success. This is where trying to put stats from a given situation to determine a players future outcome is simply no basis.
Seriously how about we do a run down on what QB’s carried a lunch to school and how many times and thus proving arm strenghth or not.
@}-----You've been Touched-----{@
by Velvetouch on Feb 6, 2012 4:57 PM CST up reply actions 3 recs
I understand your point of skewing stats to fit a hypothesis
However, we cannot ignore the fact that Heisman trophy winners as a group, for whatever reason, simply do not do well in the NFL. Especially QBs. Also, your point of the great non-Heisman winning QBs makes sense, but the point is what is about Heisman voting that picks players who don’t do so well in the NFL and ignores the great future NFL players?
I’m sure we could come up with thousand and one reasons for why that is, but it is. Regardless, the odds are not in RG’s favor.
Of course it is skewed, Murgo wrote it.
I noticed he is trying to say that 5 out of 50 qbs are worth mentioning. But he avoided mentioning that more than half of those heisman winners were not even qbs. That changes the ratio quite a bit. It is also noteworthy that CAM NEWTON should have been mentioned on that list. He only passed for 4000 yards, rushed for 700 yards and accounted for 35 tds, and he only won the rookie of the year award, and just got back from playing in the PRO BOWL as a rookie. I wonder what the ratio of nfl success is for black-qb-heisman-trophy-winners is. I noticed that Griffin accomplished even more in college than Newton too…just saying.
You don't tug on Superman's cape
You don't spit into the wind
You don't pull the mask of the Spiderman
And you don't trash talk about him
by REVENGE4WEBB on Feb 6, 2012 10:44 PM CST up reply actions 3 recs
Lol
But he avoided mentioning that more than half of those heisman winners were not even qbs.
Errm…that is part of the point, is it not? Oh, I mean to people who actually read comments and not insert their own biases into them. Sorry, forgot who I was speaking to. Good night…
by Murgo on Feb 6, 2012 11:19 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
Just gonna toss this out there..
but Newton is something of an anomaly. He’s a lightning strike. I certainly wouldn’t expect it to strike twice. Is it possible? Certainly. Probable? Odds are against it.
Let’s hold off on trying to suggest RGIII is the next Newton.
We saw the same thing with McFadden, after Adrian Peterson’s rookie year. He was supposedly going to have the same kind of impact as AD for the team that drafted him, and, up until this past season, it wasn’t even close in reality.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Feb 6, 2012 11:25 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
I agree that Newton is a freak, but I don't think Griffin is a fluke.
And, the guy was trying to say that because Griffin won the heisman, that he is somehow destined to not make it in the nfl, that is just skewed. Time will tell, but Griffin is a sweet prospect, I’m impressed with the guy, even more so after reading the article that the fanpost posted (i.e. the main topic of discussion).
I think that Spielman should be looking hard at both Luck and Griffin as prospects this year, even though he probably won’t draft them. I think this because it will give him a stronger base line comparison against Ponder and all other future qb prospects. It should help hone his evaluation skills to see the best players up close.
You don't tug on Superman's cape
You don't spit into the wind
You don't pull the mask of the Spiderman
And you don't trash talk about him
by REVENGE4WEBB on Feb 6, 2012 11:42 PM CST up reply actions
What does the Heisman have to do with RG3 being a potential top 3 pick?
I think the RG3 winning the Heisman is an honor that reflected his great season. However, the NFL is interested in RG3 for reasons quite aside from the Heisman. Winning a Heisman would have done nothing for Andrew Luck this season. Not getting one didn’t make a hill of beans worth of difference either.
Over the past 50 years of winners, only 21 were QBs. Of those 21 QBs, only 10 were taken in the first round. The number taken in the top 5 is a lot smaller still. In the past 10 years, Newton, Bradford and Palmer were taken within the top 5 (all #1’s I believe). Tebow, Leinart and White were #10 picks, late first round or not drafted at all. Winning a Heisman really doesn’t have much to do with this discussion. RG3 is at the top of the NFL draft charts for what he is expected to be able to do in the NFL. The Heisman has nothing to do with it.
"Man invented language to satisfy his deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
I'm simply throwing a little twist to the RG lovefest
The twist is this, which involves some stat tweaking. Like it or not, the Heisman winners, aside from 1 legitimate time over the 50 years have not had back to back stars in the NFL. Last year was Cam Newton and now RG. Are we lucky enough to witness the second time in Heisman history to produce back to back stars? Granted Cam is no star yet. At the end of the day, it’s all academic anyway. No team is going to do the numbers on Heisman winners and would use that as the reason or not to pick someone. I was looking at the winners and found the few NFL stars amongst them to be of interest.
As well, and I’m honestly asking, haven’t nearly all, if not all Heisman winners had the interest of the NFL aside from them winning the award?
Not sure I understand your question.
As well, and I’m honestly asking, haven’t nearly all, if not all Heisman winners had the interest of the NFL aside from them winning the award?
Are you asking if NFL teams evaluated all Heisman winners as part of their due diligence for the draft? Or are you asking if all Heisman winners (even before becoming Heisman winners) garner interest from NFL teams? Or maybe you are asking something else altogether.
Anyway, if you are asking the former question, I think the answer is “yes.” Teams know who these guys are and decide for themselves what their value is relative to the draft.
If you are asking the latter question, then the answer is a qualified “no.” Jason White (QB 2003) didn’t get drafted, but I believe that he was picked up as an undrafted free agent. Charlie Ward (QB 1993) also didn’t get drafted by the NFL. He was drafted by the NY Knicks. Teams figured he’d decided to play basketball instead of football at the pro level, so they didn’t waste a pick on him. Generally speaking though, if you are a Heisman winner, teams know who you are and you’ll get a shot in the NFL (e.g. Doug Flutie – a 9th round pick I think).
"Man invented language to satisfy his deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
by kcskol on Feb 6, 2012 8:02 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I'm cool with "considering" RG3
but us drafting him won’t happen unless it’s a draft-and-trade sort of deal with another team. Also there’s nothing wrong with either perspective of “Drafting RG3” or “Helping Ponder”, but both won’t happen and the “Helping Ponder” perspective will be the mindset of Rick Speilman come draft day. It’s fun to discuss scenarios but in reality Ponder will be the guy you will have to get used to being our starter, like it or not, and this topic is really getting tiresome to discuss. There will be the same arguments every time a Ponder, Webb, or RG3 article is posted. It’s quite repetitive reading this types of post. (And no I’m not saying you shouldn’t post them and I know that I have the option to ignore them, but coming to this site daily for a few hours I usually read everything that’s new and is being discussed so I’m liable to comment. If we could change it up a little there would be less tension and more discussion on the topic. Get creative or something. Only thing I wish was that we let Webb start this season to see where he’s at as a starting QB and then move on from there.
☠★☪Creator of http:/vikescity.info/ and dedicated DN reader.
by UnBannedVikingholic on Feb 6, 2012 7:47 PM CST reply actions
It’s quite repetitive reading this types of post.
I’m on the DN quite a bit, and I don’t know what repetition you are referring to. The RG3 interview struck me as impressive and interesting, and I added that I’d like to see the Vikings consider him at #3. I haven’t posted that before. Actually I haven’t posted anything about RG3 before. And I’ve only seen a couple of posts about RG3 at the DN. Maybe you mean the comments section was repetitive reading perhaps? I don’t know.
If we could change it up a little there would be less tension and more discussion on the topic.
I’m open to suggestions on that one. I posted a RG3 interview that I liked. It’s the 1st RG3 related post I’ve made. If the topic is RG3 or even Ponder for that matter, what’s the “change up” you are suggesting that would create less tension and more discussion ON THE TOPIC? I think it’s the topic that’s the source of tension. Some people think we should look at promising options. Others think it’s dopey to say anything other than Ponder is QBotF. I’d love to hear what you are proposing in the way of variety to discuss THE TOPIC.
Only thing I wish was that we let Webb start this season to see where he’s at as a starting QB and then move on from there.I have to confess I didn’t see this last sentence coming. Isn’t THAT the topic that generates all the heat? Webb as a starter seems a much more of a combustible topic than suggesting RG3 is a guy that the team should consider if he’s available at #3. I’m not arguing with you about Webb by the way. I think he should get a fair shake in preseason and let the chips fall where they may. However, I just don’t see how my posting a RG3 interview and responding to comments is any more repetitive or unreasonable or whatever than suggesting that Webb start next season over Ponder.
"Man invented language to satisfy his deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
Yeah I guess I was reffering to the repetive arguments
in the comments that always stats the same facts over and over. I get it already, it’s pointless to keep pointing certain things out. And Yeah, wasn’t really criticizing your fanpost but the comments that follow.
☠★☪Creator of http:/vikescity.info/ and dedicated DN reader.
by UnBannedVikingholic on Feb 6, 2012 8:30 PM CST up reply actions
Well, one angle that hasn't been discussed yet is
how good would a qb duo of Joe Webb and Robert Griffin look on the Vikings next year.
We could go there next, if you like. That might be refreshing.
You don't tug on Superman's cape
You don't spit into the wind
You don't pull the mask of the Spiderman
And you don't trash talk about him
by REVENGE4WEBB on Feb 6, 2012 10:52 PM CST up reply actions
And we do what with Ponder?
Build up your weaknesses until they become your strong points." --Knute Rockne
Who?
You don't tug on Superman's cape
You don't spit into the wind
You don't pull the mask of the Spiderman
And you don't trash talk about him
by REVENGE4WEBB on Feb 6, 2012 10:58 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
The presumed QBOTF we picked up in the draft
"Never take your eyes off of your opponent…even when you bow."
I'm just joking, dude. For the record, I said I want to draft an o-lineman.
And, also for the record, Murgo doesn’t know what the hell he is saying.
You don't tug on Superman's cape
You don't spit into the wind
You don't pull the mask of the Spiderman
And you don't trash talk about him
by REVENGE4WEBB on Feb 6, 2012 11:08 PM CST up reply actions
At least you live and let live
a commendable life choice..
The Vikes aren't in a remodeling or reconstruction they are in a burn the place down and start praying they don't mimic the Lions rebuilding process.
Okay. That made me laugh out loud.
:-)
"Men are creatures with two legs and eight hands. - Jayne Mansfield
how good would a qb duo of Joe Webb and Robert Griffin look on the Vikings next year.
Well it beats hearing a Brett Favre is coming back story.
☠★☪Creator of http:/vikescity.info/ and dedicated DN reader.
by UnBannedVikingholic on Feb 7, 2012 1:09 AM CST up reply actions
Jesus seriously anyone else think that
REVENGE4WEBB and Murgo just settle it in some elaborate cage match or something?
"Never take your eyes off of your opponent…even when you bow."
dosent seem like it
"Never take your eyes off of your opponent…even when you bow."
by Vikant on Feb 6, 2012 11:27 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
we all get caught up in these things sooner or later
Danny Loyd and I had a couple that were excellent, and there have been a bunch of others. It’s tough when you know you’re right and the other guy is an idiot :D
The Vikes aren't in a remodeling or reconstruction they are in a burn the place down and start praying they don't mimic the Lions rebuilding process.
I think the Vikings should trade Jared Allen, Adrian Peterson, and Percy Harvin to move up to grab Luck
That’s about as likely as the Vikings deciding to draft RG3 with the 3rd pick. Not going to happen.
Or in other words (responding to the thought that we might draft RG3)
[In an Irish accent] I’ll believe ya when me shit turns purple and smells like rainbow sherbet.
Actually, if that's what it took... I dunno. I might be tempted.
If Luck is as the experts suggest, a once in a generation prospect who as a better than average chance of being an elite QB for the next 10-15 years, then I think I might just go for that trade. Next year would be brutal but 3 years out we’d be loving life.
Allen had an incredibly impressive, but he’s now on the wrong side of 30. Eventually (sooner rather than later) age will impact his production and the injuries that come with age will start.
Peterson is a freak of nature, but he’s coming off a serious knee injury. He’s also a running back in a passing league. He’s not an every down back given his challenges protecting the QB and catching out of the backfield on the run. He also has a monster contract that would be nice to put into a QB and/or offensive line, etc. In addition, Gerhart filled in capably for Peterson and ended up the year with better per carry stats.
Harvin would be the toughest of the bunch for me to part with, but for an elite QB I’d seriously think about it. His contract is up in 2013. He’ll be very expensive after that.
We don’t have a shot at Luck, so we won’t be put in a position of having to entertain a trade like that. However, if it were an option, I would think pretty seriously about making the trade. I might freak out at the last minute and not go through with it, but it would tempting.
"Men are creatures with two legs and eight hands. - Jayne Mansfield
I was making the point that there is no way in hell we draft RG3.
Not that we should try to grab Luck. It was supposed the be an outlandish statement!
I know that.
I’m just saying I think it’s not entirely outlandish. For Luck, it might be something to consider. Don’t know that I could/would pull the trigger at the critical moment, but it’s something that is pretty tempting from a “for the next decade” perspective.
"Men are creatures with two legs and eight hands. - Jayne Mansfield
I may be in the minority on this one
but I feel Andrew Luck is over rated. I just don’t think his ceiling is as high as some make it out to be. Yes he’s a great talent, but the way I’ve been reading these RG3 articles, he has a higher ceiling than Luck. I wonder how great would he had looked playing in the SEC.
☠★☪Creator of http:/vikescity.info/ and dedicated DN reader.
by UnBannedVikingholic on Feb 7, 2012 1:31 AM CST reply actions
yeah you're in the small minority in that one
you shouldn’t talk of the great Andrew Luck like that.
in all seriousness that guy’s hype is a little ridiculous
"Never take your eyes off of your opponent…even when you bow."
You two are crazy
Why is it that people get upset at the amount of attention another person is receiving?
The dude did not go on some PR campaign. It is the media and scouts (real scouts) who are saying he is the real deal. Most of these scouts have nothing to gain either.
The dude was running the same offense as the 49ers better than Alex Smith. He gets three plays to choose from on each snap. Sometimes he choose an entirely different play. Toby Gerhart said this himself. No other QB in college (not even RG3) is doing this right now.
Luck also does not have any WRs. He has TEs and a running game but DBs do not have to fear Stanford going deep very often. People do not understand how impressive it is to still complete over 70% of your passes on short routes when the DBs are all over the receivers. He had to be very precise with his throws and had to throw the receivers open quite often. Those are rare skills indeed.
Andrew Luck is the real deal. He is ready to start right now. Sure he will struggle as all rookies do because of the NFL defenses they are going to face.
I would take Luck in a heartbeat and I have already posted a mock where the Vikings traded up to get him. I mean when is the next time that they are going to be so close to the number 1 overall pick? It will not cost as much as it would for another team. Plus Indy would still be able to pick someone in the top 3. Or they could even parlay that pick in to more picks.
There is a legitimate reason why NFL scouts are drooling over this young man. He can run an NFL offense already, he has great size, is tough, can run, and has a good enough arm. And he is smart too.
I do not know what you guys look for in a QB but he sure has all the things that I would want in a QB coming out of college.
Hmm I didn't know I was upset. Just thought I'd share MY opinion.
But since you’re Mr. Factual I guess I am upset JUST because everything you say is fact. Hmm, loosen up a bit, seems like YOU’RE the one upset that somebody isn’t drooling over Luck.
☠★☪Creator of http:/vikescity.info/ and dedicated DN reader.
by UnBannedVikingholic on Feb 7, 2012 10:36 AM CST up reply actions
Oh, and since you said I'm crazy
I guess that’s also fact.
☠★☪Creator of http:/vikescity.info/ and dedicated DN reader.
by UnBannedVikingholic on Feb 7, 2012 10:38 AM CST up reply actions
being crazy isn't that bad man
revel in it. And copy and paste this thread, then in three years you can bring it back up or not depending on what’s happening with junior Jesus Christ.
The Vikes aren't in a remodeling or reconstruction they are in a burn the place down and start praying they don't mimic the Lions rebuilding process.
Ding, Ding, f-ing Ding!
That is the sole reason that people say they are not sold on a player that everyone says will be great. The small band of naysayers can claim otherwise, but I will not believe you. There is very little chance you have done any actual research to back up your doubt about Luck. If Luck turns out to be great, no one will remember your “prediction.” But, if Luck flames out, you can break out a big smile and make yourself look like you have NFL-caliber ability to evaluate talent.
This, of course, is not aimed at you Grime — you just highlighted the motivation behind these naysaying yahoos.
I’ve watched Andrew Luck and he doesn’t impress me as much as some of you peoplewho have been swayed in by him. I don’t need to research anything to provide an opinion of something i’m speaking for myself and isn’t trying to state something just to claim i told you so if it happens.
☠★☪Creator of http:/vikescity.info/ and dedicated DN reader.
by UnBannedVikingholic on Feb 7, 2012 1:52 PM CST via Android app up reply actions
"some of you people"??!
Try pretty much all of the people who care to think objectively about college or professional football! Well, except for a small band of brothers and sisters who have raised the art of nay saying to the level of an honest to goodness profession. And, I will reiterate what I said above, even though you don’t care and there is no reason for you to care — I don’t believe you.
What does you believing me have to do with anything? I’m not asking you too neither do I give a f**k if you do. To me Luck is over rated and that’s that what more do I have to say to make that clear to you?
☠★☪Creator of http:/vikescity.info/ and dedicated DN reader.
by UnBannedVikingholic on Feb 7, 2012 5:26 PM CST via Android app up reply actions
who said I shared his opinon?
It was just a joke lighten the fuck up
"Never take your eyes off of your opponent…even when you bow."
Yeah
people here takes things upon themselves to assume things. I didnt say Luck sucked or even wont be good i just think he wont live up to this magicistcal hype everyone has set for him therefore making him overrated in my opinion.
☠★☪Creator of http:/vikescity.info/ and dedicated DN reader.
by UnBannedVikingholic on Feb 7, 2012 5:30 PM CST via Android app up reply actions
This is how it goes I see
Yeah you meant nothing by what you said and really do not have to back up anything since it is your opinion. OK. That leads to a great debate for sure.
Then Vikant makes a “joke” that I am suppose to interpret as such and is then surprised and offended when I do not. Go figure.
You both hate his hype. Cool. I posted information that came directly from his coaches and scouts and former players. I am not pulling things out of who knows where.
Shaw also emphasized that no player in college football comes close to matching Luck’s role as a coach on the field: He decides at the line of scrimmage which play — from a group of three called by the coaches — Stanford will run.
If none of the three are right for the defensive alignment, Luck has the option to call an audible of his choosing.
Shaw then used his Power Point to illustrate what that entails. One play appeared on the screen as this: 96 Sway Tango Edge Kill Spider 2 Y Banana Z Reno Alert 6 Zeus.
There are hundreds like that in the playbook.
"To say Andrew is just a quarterback is misleading,’’ Shaw said.
-————————————————————————————————————————
http://www.twincities.com/sports/ci_19639051
“He’s going to be special,” Gerhart said. “He’s an unbelievable quarterback. He understands the game, sees things. He’s Peyton Manning-esque in a sense that they gave him a lot of freedom to walk up to the line and call what he saw. He would be up (at the line) and change the play to whatever he wanted for what the defense was showing.”
Luck’s the complete quarterback, Gerhart said.
“Mentally, he has it all; physically, he has it all,” he said of the 6-foot-4, 235-pound Luck. “He’s accurate, he’s humble and he’s a good guy.”
-————————————————————————————————————————-
http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/The-prize-of-next-years-Draft.html
If he decides to play pro football I truly believe that he is a legitimate "franchise" quarterback. He is the best college quarterback I have seen since Peyton Manning and may be a better college player than Manning was. He certainly is a better athlete!
-————————————————————————————————————————-
These are football people talking about Luck. Shaw has worked in the NFL as a coach for many years. Greg Gabriel has been a scout since 1981 when he first started.
The kid may never live up to the hype that others have created for him. I think that he will and I am trying to use some information from others (these may not be facts to some apparently) to illustrate my point.
These are the kinds of debates in which I like to be involved.
Anybody can say anything and then not give any reasonable explanation why they feel that way. It is their right and opinion.
It just does not lead to any genuine debate.
by MarkSP18 on Feb 7, 2012 7:35 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
If people are saying he's a Peyton Manning talent
and I just dont see it then he’s overrated. Peyton is the best QB to ever play the game. From what I’ve seen Luck will not be on Peyton’s level. Thats not to say he want be a Matt Schaub or Drew Brees just not a Peyton. Sorry I dont see it.
☠★☪Creator of http:/vikescity.info/ and dedicated DN reader.
by UnBannedVikingholic on Feb 7, 2012 8:18 PM CST via Android app up reply actions
nice lengthy read.
I never once Questioned his Talent or his ability to become an elite quarterback.
all said is that his hype is a tad bit ridiculous that is it. My wording could have been different and I apologize for that. Take that for what you will, but in my IMHO I could not care less
"Never take your eyes off of your opponent…even when you bow."
I believe (this is opinion) that the Ryan Leaf fiasco has made people wary of 'consensus' first round picks.
But as a guy who was living in Washington at the time (and occasionally partying at WSU) Leaf was a washout from the start. That people didn’t see that was amazing to me. However I don’t think Luck has the same mental and character concerns that Leaf had.
The Vikes aren't in a remodeling or reconstruction they are in a burn the place down and start praying they don't mimic the Lions rebuilding process.
Interestingly enough...
…Ryan Leaf was not a consensus first round pick. The Colts made it a point to say BEFORE the draft that of the two (Manning and Leaf) only one was the real deal and that they had no confidence in the other. It wasn’t clear which one was which until the Colts drafted Manning with the 1st pick.
"Men are creatures with two legs and eight hands. - Jayne Mansfield
How have 24 hours passed without this comment being rec'd?
Problem solved!
Great information. Thanks for taking the time.
"Men are creatures with two legs and eight hands. - Jayne Mansfield
Yo Chris
Ive gotta say that i agree with you. Any idea what it would cost us to trade up to 1 or 2?
by IL PurpleRain on Feb 7, 2012 7:31 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
A whole heck of a lot
more than what the team probably can reasonably give up considering they have massive rebuilding to undertake.
I think Indy is taking him no matter what.
I do not think the Vikings will take RG3 either.
But is could be a good discussion. Apparently it offends some though.
Wait until I post something about them taking Trent Richardson (which would not be bad IMO) or Quinton Coples (also not a bad idea depending on what they do after).
Yeah we should totally grab Trent!
and trade Allen for Coples!
The Vikes aren't in a remodeling or reconstruction they are in a burn the place down and start praying they don't mimic the Lions rebuilding process.
Houston won a playoff game,
and should have gone to the AFCCG with TJ Yates behind center. Admittedly their D played lights-out, still, their offense succeeded without Schaub thanks to an amazing O-line.
Until we are set at QB we should absolutely continue to look at those prospects, and the jury is definitely still out on Ponder. But the jury is not out on the O-line, sentence was passed long ago… we suck, and that unit MUST improve. Unless we somehow land a franchise LT in FA, we have to spend our first pick up front.
by Jshore on Feb 10, 2012 3:53 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
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