Daily Norseman: FanPosts

The Beginning of the End

2009-11-20T20:41:26Z

Some people believe the runestone in Kensington, Minnesota is fake. Or perhaps the stone's author knew more about writing in runes than some ivory tower folks who are centuries removed from it being commonplace.

In the future, perhaps people will wonder if the NFL Vikings ever visited Minnesota as well. Just reflect on the original Vikings. Look around the state and you may notice some Nordic-descended residents, but if the real Vikings ever came to what is now Minnesota in the olden days, they did not remain there, unless perhaps they have intermarried with the prior residents and perhaps are now working at a casino somewhere. Maybe some casino will save the NFL team, but I really doubt it at this stage.

The point is that once the current NFL Vikings are gone, they won't be back. If you think the other NFL owners are eager to extend charity to the north star state because they have some flag written in French, please clean your glasses, get the wax out of your ears, and listen to Cowboy's owner Jerry Jones. If Minnesota fumbles, the refs will not overrule it on a replay.

NFL football will not return, so just get ready for arena football. Maybe they'll take the arena team's colors from some other high school team and you will be happy. Maybe you'll really enjoy not hearing about the Minnesota Vikings on ESPN any more.

Whatever happens, my take is that this is the begining of the end. What the stadium commission just did is throw the first punch, and the heated part of the fight is on.

Zygi Wilf and company own the Vikings, not Minnesota. So if they get disgusted enough to lateral the football to billionaire Ed Roski out in Los Angeles, Ed is never going to let go. He's recently finished building his new digs for the Lakers, and he's got the Guvernator clearing the path for his coming football stadium outside LA.

Here's an article from mndaily.com about the commission's offer: http://www.mndaily.com/2009/11/20/hold-berserk-keep-vikings

Eric is a good Nordic name. I think he sizes things up in Minnesota rather well in his article.

I don't know Zygi Wilf that much, but I did shake his hand once after hearing him speak at a chamber of commerce meeting. I believe he had good intentions in coming to Minnesota, certainly a lot better than those intentions of the ancient Viking explorers, but the thing I remember most was the fire in his eyes when he said he was not one to let other NFL owners push him around. That was back when they had grabbed Hutch from Seattle. I'm certain the actions the stadium commission just took made him want to get mad as hell. But as the Kennedy's always said, don't get mad, get even...

Place Your Bets...Cutler

2009-11-20T20:09:13Z

Prior to the start of the season the NFC North's hottest topic was undoubtably "Quarterbacks," with three of the four teams in the division handing the ball to new starters. Nine games into the 2009 season it seems that quarterback play has impacted the division more than any other factor. Not necessarily in the manner in which it was at one time thought.

Detroit drafted Matthew Stafford number one overall; the Bears made what most argued at the time was the biggest acquisition in trading for the young Pro-bowler Jay Cutler; as we all know, the Vikings seduced future HOFer Brett Favre out of retirement as the final piece of the puzzle. The Packers fielded the only returning starter, Aaron Rodgers.

This post will highlight Jay Cutler .and the Chicago Bears week 11 Matchup:

The Chicago Bear's Jay Cutler was at one time anticipated to lead the Bears atop the North Division. The Bears are currenlty third behind the first place Vikings and second place Packers. Cutler is the league wide leader in one statistical catagory...Interceptions. Cutler's 17 interceptions, 1.88 per game is unmatched. Carolina's Jake Delhome, despite his effort (14 total, throwing just one week 11 interception), has been unable to catch or surpass the wildly struggling Cutler. Cutler's ability to throw them in bunches and his penache for redzone turnovers sets him apart from all of his peers. This week Cutler and the oft hibernating Bears go up against the leagues 3rd best interceptor in Asanti Samuel, on the leagues 3rd best intercepting team, Philedelphia Eagles. Look for Cutler to pad his stats and increase his league lead this week.

Poll

Over / Under on Jay Cutler Week 11 Interceptions: 2

Place Your Bets...Rodgers

2009-11-20T20:06:13Z

This post will highlight Aaron Rodgers and the Packers week 11 match-up:

Green Bay's Aaron Rodgers has been discussed as one the leagues best quarterbacks. He is ~~if by best you mean worst~~ currently leading the league in sacks taken with 41, for a per game average of 4.55. The Packers face a San Franciso 49ers defense currently rank 23rd (tied) in sacks with 17. Logic would tell you they will be moving up this list after this weeks game. Two weeks ago the Packers made a rag tag group of defeated deck swabbers into a cohesive unit of victorious swash bucklers on their way to six sacks (ranked 23rd).

Poll

Over Under on Aaron Rodgers Sacks Taken Week 11: 4

Quick Fun: Vote: Best Favre Photo!

2009-11-20T18:41:46Z

SELECT THE BEST FAVRE PHOTO! JUST ANOTHER FAVRE POST THAT GIVES US ANOTHER REASON TO THANK FAVRE!

Yes this is Favre in this Photo! Vote: Revenge	Wow! SHOCKERRRR! Vote: Purple Looks Better Anyways!
Could he be our Savior? Hopefully! Vote: Favre Superior	LOL! Are they serious? BOOOOO! Vote: Favre you Favre

Lastly:

Vote: Favre this recent offseason!

Now send in your votes for the Best Favre Image posted above, or leave better images if possible in comments below! Skol Vikings!

Poll

Which Favre Photo Is the Best?

Greatest Picks Part 2 (56-09)

2009-11-20T17:50:19Z

Well I got good reception from the first one so I decided to do this one today. If you weren't able to read the first one here is a link.

Greatest Picks from 1956-2009 picks 17-32. I used Wikipedia to do most of this but when I came to a tough one I used NFL.com.

Here we go 17-32 after the jump

17. Emmitt Smith RB Dallas Cowboys(Minnesota Vikings) 1990/ Gene Upshaw OL Oakland Raiders 1967

18. Paul Krause DB Washington Redskins 1964/ Art Monk WR Washington Redskins 1980

19. John Mackey TE Indianapolis Colts 1963/ Marvin Harrison WR Indianpolis Colts 1996/ Randal McDainel OL Minnesota Vikings 1988

20. Jack Youngblood DL Los Angeles Rams 1971/ Forrest Gregg OT Green Bay Packers 1956

21. Randy Moss WR Minnesota Vikings 1998/ Lynn Swann Pittsburgh Steelers 1974

22. Percy Harvin DUH! WR Minnesota Vikings 2009/ Andre Rison WR Indiapolis Colts 1989

23. Ray Guy P Oakland Raiders 1973/ Ozzie Newsome TE Cleveland Browns 1978

24. Ed Reed S Baltimore Ravens 2002/ Steven Jackson RB St Louis Rams 2004

25. Ted Washington DL New England Patriots 1991/ Santonio Holmes WR Pittsburgh Steelers 2006

26. Ray Lewis LB Baltimore Ravens 1996/ Yea there's no one to even compare to him

27. Dan Marino QB Miami Dolphins 1983/ Once again no one to compare

28. Derrick Brooks LB Tampa Bay Buccaneers 1995/ Darrel Green DB Washington Redskins 1983

29. Fran Tarkenton QB Minnesota Vikings 1961/ Dave Wilcox San Francisco 49ers 1963

30. Sam Huff LB New York Giants 1956/ Reggie Wayne WR Indiapolis Colts 2001

31. Nnamdi Asomugha DB Oakland Raiders 2003/ Jimmy Johnson DB San Diego Chargers 1961

32. Bob St. Clair OL San Francisco 49ers 1953/ Drew Brees QB San Diego Chargers 2001

For Revenge4Favre

33. Brett Favre QB Atlanta Falcons 1992

I had trouble with pick number 24, It was a little difficult, but ultimately I picked Ed Reed. For number 17, I just thought I'd remind you all about the TRADE. :'(

On number 32 I made an exception to the year rule becuase there are not that many great players picked at 32.

Teams with number of picks on my lists:

0- Bengals, Cardinals, Eagles, Jets, Jaguars, Panthers, Saints, Seahawks, Texans

1- Bills, Broncos, Lions

2- Browns, Buccaneers, Chiefs, Cowboys, Dolphins, Falcons, Giants, Ravens, Oilers/Titans

3- Chargers, Packers, Patriots, Raiders

4- Bears, 49ers, Rams, Redskins, Steelers,

5- 0 teams

6- Colts

7 & 8- 0 Teams

9- Vikings

Now I may be biased, but it looks like the Vikings, Colts, Bears, 49ers, Rams, Redskins, and Steelers have had the best draft picks.

Lemme know how I did in the comments.

Poll

What teams is the best Drafters?

We have built it, they will come

2009-11-20T17:07:33Z

I'm not sure what QB's will be available after this season. I really haven't looked into it, but wouldn't you want to play for the Vikes if Brett doesn't come back. All the so called experts kept saying all the Vikings needed to be a serious contender was a QB. Well we got BF and now we are. I realize alot depends on what happens this year. If we win it all BF is gone. I think if we get close he might come back. If not the Vikes have alot of the pieces in place. A healthy Hasselback or Delhomme or Pennington come to mind. We oblivously won't be drafting in the top ten anytime soon thats for sure. I think we could find a solid veteran that could step in and perform well. Having a top notch running game and a solid defense along with our recieving corps should appeal to a solid vet looking to escape another 6-10 season. We still have Tjack maybe after watching and learning from BF it has sunk in. He has the tools, just needs to use his head for more than a hat rack. Help me out here brethen who's available and what are your thoughts. I think it could work to keep us in the hunt.

Update: More Videos! ENJOY!

2009-11-20T16:55:07Z

DECLARE ME MR. NORSEMAN HIGHLIGHT UPDATE MAN or MNHUPM 4 Short!

This is why Percy is a stud R4F!

This Is Just HeartBreaking. 4 shots and we haven't won the big game once! Please God let this change this year in

the hands of this team!

And for a chance at another Superbowl, we may have to encounter the Saints! Hopefully the outcome can be the same or way better! And note: The name Winfield pops up a lot, and hopefully he can be ready and healthy throughout the playoffs!

But lets Take this one game at a time: Week 11: Seahawks vs. Vikings Preview Below

SHOULD WE DEPEND ON HOPE OR DESTINY? Maybe we control them both!

Poll

Are the Vikings awesome?

Iraqi Militants Are Favre Fans???

2009-11-20T14:06:28Z

Iraqi miitants as Favre fans? Not really.

However, according to a story on a Milwaukee news radio station website, Iraqi detainees under the supervision of a Wisconsin National Guard unit are using Brett Favre to taunt the Packer-backer soldiers, pointing out to their guards how well Favre is doing with the Vikings:

http://www.620wtmj.com/news/local/70451747.html

Just when I thought I had dealt with all the possible weird angles to the Favre saga...

Hasselbeck loved being the understudy.

2009-11-20T08:19:03Z

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news;_ylt=AhgQdX95G757oQRQ5uDCsA1ev6F4?slug=capress-fbn_seahawks_favres_protege-196124932&prov=capress&type=lgns

"Teammates love him. Coaches love him. Opponents love him. He was a lot of fun at work. It's contagious, his attitude. And to go with that, he's very, very talented."

I would

2009-11-20T06:04:12Z

Be ashamed to be part of this blog if The Spielman Famiy story only gets 4 posts,it should be clicking off the charts
, set your Facebook,twitters and everything.Send the story that someone passed on from breast cancer at age 42, so check ups and Mams need be done before age 50, in fact should be started when breasts are formed and should be a yearly check up.

Be a voice, be heard, speak out, dont just let your play calling be just be limited to football,I have my Wife and Family members get checked yearly along with self exams.So do those checkups and email love ones to get reg check ups include with B-day cards, Yuletide cards etc.

After

2009-11-20T05:22:35Z

Favre rides his lawnmower into the Sunset,what does this team have going for it.We have 4 more years of Chilly,no real set plan at Q.B, a Twin City counsel trying to force the Vikes into a 2 year extension on the Metro-dump.A declining run Def. iffy pass Def,maybe a few Cordinators going to be H.C.for other teams.

Our front line Off. players are choking the Chicken when it comes to opening holes for A.D. or C.T . used to be wide gaps,now there isnt that push to make a path.Put A.D. and Harvin in backfield,split one to the right other to the left,set up a nice screen,in either of these players it can go to the house at anytime.Takes teams stacking against the run cause now they gotta play both sides,run Berrian deep,put Shank into the flats,Rice into the middle.

Dont get me wrong,love me some Vikes, more so when they winning, but been down this road before,in fact more times then I wish.Other day my Wife asked me why I hadnt been Yelling at the T.V. or Throwing Purple socks, been too calm on game day. I said Favre Q.B.ing and as long as he doesnt go gunslinger we always be in the game,her having Wiscousin ties said the obvious.Which got me thinking mmmm.

What would our Season be like without Favre,is Chillys K.O.A. so intense it takes a 20 year Vet to run it.Is A.D. s run decline due to dropping back and guarding Favre from unneedless hits.How many more Def. Delay of Game are we going rack up this year,and why so many as can remember 2 in in 30 year span and we got 3 this year alone.

What will it take for us to be contenders for the next 5 years.GB. has a nice start in Rogers,say what ya will about him, but the kid has some moxie and if they ever get a front line he will do damage very much like Favre did for them if he survives the next 2 seasons.Cutler needs some players to throw to,and if doesnt open his mouth will be a force to be reckoned with.Stafford, I like this kid,has moxie,balls,takes a hit and lets bad plays watershed,they ever get half a brain in charge and Detroit will be a contender in 2 years.

I really feel for the Pack fans,their Head Office made a diffcult choice,go with Favre and lose Rodgers which would have benifited us for years to come,or trade Favre and benifit us 2 years max.I think they made a great choice in keeping Rogers,though I can feel the pain of Losing Favre.Hopefully, when his career is done,they Welcome him into their all time greats,that they forget he wore Purple and Remember him for who he was.A player that gave his all to a team and choose not to retire again and againand again and prolly again again lol.

1 FREE Seahawk Ticket ...............

2009-11-18T03:48:26Z

I can not attend this weekend's game again. So I will be giving away my ticket for the Vikings vs Seahawks matchup on 11/22/09, to the one person who first can attend the game and second the person who can describe what makes Percy Harvin such a STUD! The best answer in my opinion will win the ticket. The ticket is in section 207.

Rules: Must be a registered blogger on the Daily Norseman on or before 11/8/09. I will choose a winner and notify who the winner of the ticket is with another FanPost on Sat 11/21/09 at 10:00 am central.

I am a season ticket holder. As a season ticket holder I am able to void my ticket and Email you an authorized ticket.

All the winner will do is print off the ticket that I send you through Email, and present the ticket and their picture ID at the admission gate. I will include my Email in the winner's notification FanPost on 11/21/09. GOOD LUCK!

Brett Favre is the Greatest QB in NFL History! Brett Favre will lead the Vikings to a Victory in Super Bowl XLIV!

Skol Vikings!

Hasselbeck thinks T.J. would have picked Favre

2009-11-20T00:42:43Z

I found this while surfing around for any possible vikings stories that may have been missed here on DN. Like that would ever happen.

Apparently Hasselbeck thinks that if Favre has come out of retirement prior to T.J. making a decision that he would have picked the Vikes over the Hawks.

I would like to be the first to say DUHHHHHH. I would also like to thank T.J. for passing on Minnesota and second, and yeah this is weird to type, thank Farve for waiting that bit of extra time. This is of course because we all know, had the Vikes gotten T.J. we most likely would not have drafted Percy Harvin and Sidney Rice would most likely not be having the season he is.

You can find the whole piece where I found it on the Pioneer Press page at http://blogs.twincities.com/Vikings/2009/11/hasselbeck-thinks-tj-would-hav.html Or just read the intering tidbit here:

"It's probably a bigger game for (former Viking) Nate Burleson, because he's got fond memories up there," Hasselbeck said. "When I talked to T.J. when he was here, he was deciding between going back to Cincinnati, and going to Minnesota, and coming here to Seattle. I'm just glad Brett didn't come out of retirement around that time, because T.J. probably would have picked Brett."
What makes you say that, Matt?
"I just got a feeling."

Fun fact

2009-11-19T23:38:32Z

There are currently 32 quarterbacks in the NFL who have thrown more interceptions this year than Favre has.

There are currently 41 quarterbacks in the NFL who have fumbled the ball more times this year than Favre has.

There are only 31 other teams.

I just thought that was worth noting, and hope that I can get in the required number of words before the jump; I forgot what the requirement is. (whoops - but now I know).

Brad Childress just got Richer!

2009-11-19T21:01:10Z

It's finally happened. After much speculation about when they would sign him to an extension it happened this afternoon.

According to Kevin Seifert (NFC North Blogger at ESPN)

The Minnesota Vikings reached a contract extension with Brad Childress that will keep the coach with the team through the 2013 season, a source told ESPN.com Thursday
Financial terms weren't immediately available but it is believed to be between $4 million and $5 million a year, the source said. In 2006, Childress signed a five-year, $10 million contract, which was scheduled to expire after the 2010 season.

The Vikings are off to an 8-1 start with Brett Favre at quarterback. His record in Minnesota is 32-2. The Vikings made the playoffs last year and are trying to get the top seed in the NFC.

Both sides have been working on a deal for the past several months. The agreement came together Thursday morning.

As a team, the Vikings are loaded. They have 22 players on their roster who are in the top five in fan voting for the Pro Bowl

I can live with Chilly for a couple more years. He's been a great coach here.

Poll

What do you think about this?

Vikings' VIDEO UPDATES

2009-11-19T20:29:01Z

DECLARE ME MR. NORSEMAN HIGHLIGHT UPDATE MAN or MNHUPM 4 Short!

Is here to give you more updates on Viking Videos!

Enjoy everyone, Now trying to get the 75 word mark. All of these Videos are directly from NFL.com!

First Video, Favre Mic'd Up Like someone posted earlier, but I have the video here for everyone's enjoyment!

NFL Weekly Countdown No. 4: Wild Rice 01:34 – Sydney Rice's sensational 200-yd receiving performance vs. the Lions is the No. 4 moment on our countdown.

AND TO CELEBRATE THIS WEEK'S GAME ENJOY THIS EVEN MORE!

Poll

Are the Vikings Awesome?

When I Think of the Seahawks...

2009-11-19T20:01:29Z

I think of growing up a Viking fan in "Seahawk Country", which is to say Portland, OR. Not even a home team, just a team NEAR us, which is even worse. Week in, week out, Seahawks on tv. Being forced to go to sunday morning church, then coming home for the afternoon game only to see who on tv? The Seahawks. Being at Qwest Field a couple of years ago to see and hear THIS happen, nearly makes up for a wasted childhood...

Greatest Draft Picks Ever My Opinion (1957-2009)

2009-11-19T19:35:16Z

The more and more you guys talk about Brad Childress' and Rick Speilmans love for stealing (ie. Adrian, Percy, Greenway) I decided to look into the greatest draft picks ever by each position 1-32 (Top 2)

In order to get to 75 words i'll let you know some things

All of this will be done by myself, I'm not just going to copy and paste. I also used NFL.com to help me with some of the picks that were just to close to call. There is either 2 or 3 for each of them. Two names mean top two. 3 Names mean way to close to call.

I will do 1-16 today, and 17-32 later on. Here we go Greatest Picks from 57-09 by position 1-16 after the jump.

1. John Elway QB Denver Broncos 1983/ Peyton Manning QB Indianapolis Colts 1998/ Ron Yary OT Minnesota Vikings 1968

2. Eric Dickerson RB Los Angeles Rams 1983/ Lawrence Taylor LB New York Giants

3. Dick Butkis LB Chicago Bears 1965/ Barry Sanders RB Detroit Lions 1989

4. Walter Payton RB Chicago Bears 1975/ John Hannah G New England Patriots 1973/ Gale Sayers RB Chicago Bears 1965

5. Deion Sanders CB Atlanta Falcons 1989/ Mike Haynes CB New England Patriots 1976

6. Jim Brown RB Cleveland Browns 1957/ Carl Eller DL Minnesota Vikings 1964

7. Adrian Peterson RB Minnesota Vikings/ Champ Bailey DB Washington Redskins

8. Larry Csonka RB Miami Dolphins 1968/ Ronnie Lott DB San Franciso 49ers 1981

9. Bruce Matthews OL Houston Oilers 1983/ Brian Urlacher Chicago Bears 2000

10. Marcus Allen RB Los Angeles Rams 1982/ Rod Woodson Pittsburg Steelers 1987

11. Michael Irvin WR Dallas Cowboys 1988/ Dwight Freeney Indiapolis Colts 2002

12. Chuck Foreman RB Minnesota Vikings 1973/ Warren Sapp DL Tampa Bay Buccaneers 1997

13. Tony Gonzalez TE Kansas City Chiefs 1997/ Kellen Winslow TE San Diego Chargers 1979/ Franco Harris RB Pittsburgh Steelers

14. Jim Kelly QB Buffalo Bills 1984/ Eddie George RB Houston Oilers 1996

15. Alan Page DL Minnesota Vikings 1967/ Jim Taylor FB Green Bay Packers 1958

16. Jerry Rice WR San Francisco 49ers 1985/ Bobby Bell LB/DE Kansas City Chiefs 1963

The ones with three names were the ones way to close to call, so I used http://www.nfl.com/draft/story?id=09000d5d80f92ef0&template=without-video-with-comments&confirm=true to help out. Other than that I just used Wikipedia and went through the drafts and decided.

Lemme know what you guys think.

Thanks for reading.

Have a great rest of the day.

Poll

How close was I with the first 16 picks?

Vikings reject Metrodome lease extension

2009-11-19T03:09:42Z

Looks like the State may have tried to pull a fast one and now everyone is pissed. This just popped up within the hour

"By DAVE CAMPBELL, AP Sports Writer

MINNEAPOLIS (AP)—The Minnesota Vikings vehemently rejected a proposal from their landlord to extend their lease at the Metrodome, telling the stadium’s operator in a letter on Wednesday its plan threatens the team’s future in the state.

The Metropolitan Sports Facilities Commission’s finance committee, chaired by Paul Thatcher, approved on Tuesday a resolution it said would buy time for the Vikings to secure a new stadium. The lagging economy and a state budget deficit have clouded the political prospects of allocating public money for a rebuilt facility.

The team’s lease expires after the 2011 season, and the MSFC’s proposal would keep the Vikings in the dome at least two more seasons with year-to-year renewal options after that. The commission has not charged the Vikings rent since 2002 to help their bottom-of-the-NFL revenue situation, the Star Tribune reported Wednesday in a story about the resolution, but if the team doesn’t agree to the plan it could be asked to resume paying.

Clearly, the team doesn’t agree.

“What happened yesterday sent a chilling message to the (team owner) Wilfs, the NFL and the other owners about how serious we are about solving this issue,” vice president Lester Bagley said in a phone interview Wednesday evening shortly after the team shared the letter with reporters. “Granted, we have economic challenges but we need to move the discussion forward.”

Bagley said the team didn’t see the proposal coming.

“All of a sudden out of the blue, they’ve chosen to focus on a lease extension rather than solving the long-term problem,” he said. “We need a real conversation and engagement by state and local leadership to move the situation forward.”

MSFC executive director Bill Lester didn’t immediately return a phone message.

Owner Zygi Wilf and president Mark Wilf co-signed a sharply worded letter addressed to Thatcher, saying the organization was “shocked, exasperated and extremely disappointed” by the “flawed revenue relief” proposal. It was delivered Wednesday, Bagley said.

“This action was a cynical attempt to advance a ‘proposal’ that you know is totally unacceptable to the Minnesota Vikings and fails to address the issues important to both the short-term and long-term success of this franchise in Minnesota,” the letter read.

The Wilfs, in the letter, touted their efforts to invest in the team without guarantee of a revenue-enhancing new stadium. The Vikings are 8-1 for the first time since 1998 behind new quarterback Brett Favre (notes),

“As the last tenant in the Metrodome, we would expect to be treated fairly and with some minimum level of respect. Your actions yesterday leave us confused and questioning the future of this franchise,” the letter read. “As a result, we have instructed our management team to suspend any further engagement with the MSFC unless and until the Commission gets serious about resolving the near-term revenue issues and acting like a partner with us to retain this valued franchise in the Minnesota for the next generation of fans. The time for more political games on this issue has expired.”

Looking for some info on how the playoffs are set-up...

2009-11-19T02:01:23Z

Wondering if someone can answer this question for me. How are the play-off organized? I ask because I occasionally pop over to check out "The Absurdly Premature Playoff Picture" blog post at Yahoo Sports (http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/blog/shutdown_corner/post/The-absurdly-premature-playoff-picture-Week-10?urn=nfl,203407) and a few weeks back they had the Packers making the Playoffs but they were on the other side of the NFC playoff bracket branches (so to speak) - after this past week's win, they've been moved to a position where we'd have to play them BEFORE getting to the NFC Championship game (assuming that we hold true to form here and win the Division as it looks like we might).

What determines the exact positioning of wild-card teams in the brackets?